Pask as warlord data analysis

[hendrik]

(At work so I don't have the codex in front of me)\

 

To Captain Idaho's point, can you take Pask as a non-warlord? Talk about a tempting HQ for a Guard ally detachment...

Yes, but why then not take an armoured battalion ally list which has leman russes for HQ, elites and troops, and has some of the best anti-MC options available in game? their only downside is no acces to platoons and manticores (but they can still take armoured fists)

[Captain Idaho]

Is such a list in the Codex? If not then it's probably very niche, specifically for my needs anyway.

 

By the Emperor Marines with Leman Russ allies and cheapo Veteran squad? I never even thought about that!

 

I do think the Leman Russ Warlord is a double edged sword. There is great potential for a single blast template to cripple the squad and thanks to the squadron rules a melta attack squad only has to have sufficient range to hit all vehicles but melta one and bam! You just lost a whole squadron.

 

Not to mention an Orbital Bombardment hits the model closest to the centre. Barrage sniping could be dangerous.

 

And Eldar Suncannons can also hurt.

[Ammonius]

 

(At work so I don't have the codex in front of me)\

 

To Captain Idaho's point, can you take Pask as a non-warlord? Talk about a tempting HQ for a Guard ally detachment...

Yes, but why then not take an armoured battalion ally list which has leman russes for HQ, elites and troops, and has some of the best anti-MC options available in game? their only downside is no acces to platoons and manticores (but they can still take armoured fists)

The Armoured Battalion list is in the back of IA2 2nd Ed, right? I'll have to check that out.

 

Honestly the only reason I can think of off hand is the number of Leman Russ tanks I don't own, which isn't a showstopper :)

[Spacefrisian]

Is such a list in the Codex? If not then it's probably very niche, specifically for my needs anyway.

 

By the Emperor Marines with Leman Russ allies and cheapo Veteran squad? I never even thought about that!

 

I do think the Leman Russ Warlord is a double edged sword. There is great potential for a single blast template to cripple the squad and thanks to the squadron rules a melta attack squad only has to have sufficient range to hit all vehicles but melta one and bam! You just lost a whole squadron.

 

Dunno if that is that much of a problem as those tanks in vehicle squadrons can actually be 4" apart from each other, that is a big gap that blast has to cover if it is trying to hit 2 tanks.

[Captain Idaho]

But everyone keeps saying how big an army the Guard can field. On a 6'x4' are we really going to see squadrons spread out, and bubble wrapped, and the 70+ infantry models plus transports plus artillery, all spread across the deployment zone despite terrain?

[hendrik]

with squadrons you won't be able to take that many models anymore! heck, i have troubles fitting in all the units i wish to take in a 2000 pts list! ;)

 and a 6" by 1" deployment zone is still HUGE! especially if you take ranged units

 

:
There is great potential for a single blast template to cripple the
squad and thanks to the squadron rules a melta attack squad only has to
have sufficient range to hit all vehicles but melta one and bam! You
just lost a whole squadron.

where did you get that from.?even if 1 gets destroyed the rest of the unit is still unharmed...

[Captain Idaho]

If 3 meltas get three destroyed results on one model, the rest being within the squad range but outside melta half distance, you still lose three vehicles.

 

***edit*** actually you just need a single bolter in range of all the squadron and all your melta shots can kill them all even if out of range. ***

 

I dispute how much space you'll get on a board without losing line of sight to some units or clogging up the field. But more importantly taking all the goodies just limits how many knocks you can take. I'm scared of large numbers AND tanks, not large numbers OR tanks.

 

***edited again*** and if you want to protect your squadron from Drop Pod attack and orbital bombardment and Attack bikes and Land Speeder Storms (plus other races and their inferior heretical methods), you'll need to clump up somewhat.

[Warhead01]

 

But everyone keeps saying how big an army the Guard can field. On a 6'x4' are we really going to see squadrons spread out, and bubble wrapped, and the 70+ infantry models plus transports plus artillery, all spread across the deployment zone despite terrain? 

I deploy in waves. reserves are some times used to protect units that are fragile or if I just run out of room.

 

You could deploy in a refused flank with just a few units that you are willing to potentially sacrifice , empty transports, conscripts even a smaller fortification. 

Just do that and then choose to go second. sure it is likely that we will give up first blood. But then we arrive , mounted platoons, squadrons. none of that one or two units just large chunk of army. It has served me extremely well. My Space wolves land speeder squadrons, typhoons and tornados delivering a massive counter punch to enemy units that have been softened up.  

Really how many drop squads are we talking about? 2 or 3? maybe 4? 

[Captain Idaho]

I'm going 3 Pods.

 

Still sounds like a full table.

[hendrik]

offcourse we'll fill the table! but not so much that it's impossible to deploy your army!

 here's a quick view of what i intend to bring to my next 2000 pts game:

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb281/amorfatipictures/IMG_20140421_212357_zpskf8e7sbf.jpg

+ an additional 50 guardsmen and 3 psymaris psychers.

Sure, that's a lot on the table, but on a 1/3 chance those armoured sentinels and/or the entire mechanised platoon and/or a leman russ will be outflanking

[Captain Idaho]

Well therein goes the art of 40K; can the opponent hit the Guard hard enough after you shoot them as good as you can.

 

It's up to opponents to run the gauntlet and use terrain and the like to increase their chances.

 

(Nice pic by the way)

[Seahawk]

You resolve each hit one at a time. So if three meltaguns are within 6" of one leman russ and the next is over 12" away (easy to do when spread out), then you'd resolve it as follows:

 

1. Score 3 hits with meltaguns.

2. Roll for penetration with the first meltagun. 

3. Roll for any damage result required. If the vehicle is destroyed, allocate the second meltagun hit to the next furthest vehicle.

4. If it's still within 6", roll 2D6. If over 6", then only roll 1D6. 

5. Repeat #3 and the cycle continues.

 

It's quite likely that you'll only kill one tank in this manner, even if you're Fire Dragons. I played a 2500pt game, and I was still able to spread the squadron out to 4" each.

[hendrik]

Don't forget the at the very least 6+ cover save! It's an autoinclude now it also works on the move!

[WarriorFish]

Drawbacks are good though, imagine the mouth frothing if there were only positives to bringing a TC? There's always an element of risk when you take something and this is how it should be.

 

As I said elsewhere a good Guard army always has a backup plan. Whatever your opponent does make sure he is punished for it - with the numbers and fire power Guard can muster it isn't hard to get the units to do this. The trick is in knowing how to do it ;)

[scatmandoo]

Have used a pask Vanquisher and a pask Punisher in 2 games and I think the punisher was the better bet especially as all I ever do when j pen with the vanquisher is shake/stun after a pen.

[Captain Idaho]

You resolve each hit one at a time. So if three meltaguns are within 6" of one leman russ and the next is over 12" away (easy to do when spread out), then you'd resolve it as follows:

 

1. Score 3 hits with meltaguns.

2. Roll for penetration with the first meltagun. 

3. Roll for any damage result required. If the vehicle is destroyed, allocate the second meltagun hit to the next furthest vehicle.

4. If it's still within 6", roll 2D6. If over 6", then only roll 1D6. 

5. Repeat #3 and the cycle continues.

 

It's quite likely that you'll only kill one tank in this manner, even if you're Fire Dragons. I played a 2500pt game, and I was still able to spread the squadron out to 4" each.

Is that so? I still haven't access to my rule book and I just remembered skimming that section but it saying you do as for normal shooting.

 

Oh well, melta shenanigans aside I stand by my position that a Warlord HQ squadron is great but does leave a great big "kill me" sign on your Warlord (more than usual).

[Targetlock]

hmm all very interesting options, Punisher Pask just sounds great to me as I already have a punisher and I am very fond of it (love rolling that much dakka!) the only thing i don't like is the whole squadron and the issues that entails. 

[Seahawk]

Yep, that's how it works.

 

Harder for opponents to do when he has defensive gear and two ablative tanks to take the hits. Don't forget look out sir!

[Captain Idaho]

Can you look out Sir? That's nasty!

 

***hold on Seahawk, ya sneak! Look out Sir! specifies wounds am I correct? Vehicles do not suffer wounds.

[Seahawk]

Aye, and you can't take invulnerable saves on glancing/penetrating hits either because that rule "only applies to wounds" too.

Common sense will tell us that we can. GW is another story, but until they do, that's how I'll play it. The power of precedent and all.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think that'll wash in a tournament. I don't have invulnerable saves on my vehicles and I'm not going to let anyone use a completely unrelated rule as precedent for something that isn't just against the rules but also unrealistic (unfluffy) and gives an unfair advantage to an already strong unit.

[march10k]

Tsk tsk...a moderator promoting a house rule as canon?  Will wonders never cease...to be clear, invul saves were FAQed to be available  to vehicles...LoS! saves were not. And, to be honest, I don't see a tank jumping in front of a melta blast to save the boss tank...they're just not that agile!

[Fibonacci]

Aye, and you can't take invulnerable saves on glancing/penetrating hits either because that rule "only applies to wounds" too.

Common sense will tell us that we can. GW is another story, but until they do, that's how I'll play it. The power of precedent and all.

I don't think that'll wash in a tournament. I don't have invulnerable saves on my vehicles and I'm not going to let anyone use a completely unrelated rule as precedent for something that isn't just against the rules but also unrealistic (unfluffy) and gives an unfair advantage to an already strong unit.

"Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit -- exactly like you would resolve Wounds on a normal unit." pg 77

Wounds are passed on by LO,S in nromal units so hits would be passed on with LO,S in squadrons. It's not an unrelated precedent; it's RAW.

[Seahawk]

There never was a case for this before, that's why it wasn't addressed. [edit] Fibonacci's got it right. Just like wounds! ;)

Not all that far-fetched. For the USAF, Air Force One's escort pilots are trained and expected to intercept enemy missiles with their own jets. Escort ships take the hits for the bigger important ships. Is it too crazy to imagine one commander seeing a threat his boss doesn't, and acts selflessly to save him (the whole reason behind "LO,S!" rolls).

Already wrote the justification elsewhere.

[Captain Idaho]

 

 

Aye, and you can't take invulnerable saves on glancing/penetrating hits either because that rule "only applies to wounds" too. ;)

 

Common sense will tell us that we can. GW is another story, but until they do, that's how I'll play it. The power of precedent and all.

 

I don't think that'll wash in a tournament. I don't have invulnerable saves on my vehicles and I'm not going to let anyone use a completely unrelated rule as precedent for something that isn't just against the rules but also unrealistic (unfluffy) and gives an unfair advantage to an already strong unit.

"Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit -- exactly like you would resolve Wounds on a normal unit." pg 77

 

Wounds are passed on by LO,S in nromal units so hits would be passed on with LO,S in squadrons. It's not an unrelated precedent; it's RAW.

It says you allocate hits exactly like you wound resolve Wounds on a normal unit. Look out Sir! Is a special rule for characters and not wound allocation.

 

Wound allocation and Look Out Sir! are not the same thing.

 

If someone tries to pull a stunt like that on me in game I'll pack up my bags and find another opponent. It's so dirty it makes me very uncomfortable. It's not as if your AV14 vehicle can't be placed further away from opponents.