Ishagu Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Well, here is my list. I don't have any experience with 30k but I hope this will do ok in both Heresy and 40k era battles... HQ: -Warmaster Horus Lupercal -Master of Signal, Artifacer Armour Troops: -5 Justaerin Terminators, Multi Melta, 4 Power Fists, Chain Fist -10 Reconnaissance Marines, 10 Sniper Rifles -10 Man Legion Tactical Squad, Sgt with Combi Weapon, Legion Vaxilla, Bolters and Bolt Pistols, Rhino Transport Heavy Support: -Legion Sicaran, Las Cannon Sponsons -Legion Sicaran, Las Cannon Sponsons -Legion Sicaran Venator, Las Cannon Sponsons So... How is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiR Posted April 23, 2014 Share Posted April 23, 2014 Youre main Problem will be the weak Standarts. Troops have an very important role in 30k, and if you imagine how youre enemy with similiare tank count will shred youre Troops then in Round 3 there will be nothing left. Personaly play with 2 huge 15-20 man Troops, but if you whant more Tanks, then only take the Master of Signal and drop Horus, the free 500 Points can be spent on Troops and maybe an Land Raider for youre Termis. I also would change the Justerins to normal Cataphract Termis, Justerin are ridicolus overpriced. I use the Justerin Models for mine and hope for an redesign. Split the Recons in 2 5mans with an Kombi Melter and Flank them, no Sniperrifles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 Ok, I have made ammendments to the list: HQ: -Warmaster Horus Lupercal -Master of Signal, Artifacer Armour Troops: -5 Justaerin Terminators, Multi Melta, 4 Power Fists, Chain Fist -10 Reconnaissance Marines, 10 Sniper Rifles -20 Man Legion Tactical Squad, Sgt with Combi Weapon, Legion Vaxilla, Bolters and Bolt Pistols Elites: -Contemptor Dreadnought, Kheres Assault Cannon, Power Fist, Gravition Gun -Apothecary, Augury Scanner Heavy Support: -Legion Sicaran, Las Cannon Sponsons -Legion Sicaran, Las Cannon Sponsons So... Anything glaringly terrible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 IMO? You're using Horus at too low of a point level, and your remaining choices are taken up by choices that are cool from a background and modelling standpoint, but sub-par from a gameplay perspective. By just about any measure, Justaerin, standard Contemptors, and Recon squads are massively overcosted. Your list could survive any one of these things, but you combine three sub-par units with an out of place 500 point Lord of War? You're left with, what? 800 points of actual army? Your tac squad, MoS, and Sicarans? I guess we can throw the Contemptor in there, too - he's overcosted for what he does, but it's pretty borderline. You could have a Contemptor-Mortis with dual Kheres for 25 points less that's arguably better at the main job of that Contemptor while being worse at punching things. To me, all of that makes asking what you should take superfluous. There is nothing you can take in those points to make this good. So you either commit to being entirely fluffy and just keep filling in the last half of your list with whatever you want, or you're going to need to become way more flexible on whether or not Horus, those Recon marines, and those Justaerin are staying. If you want Horus to work at 2k points, the list has to be entirely built around him - probably using Pride of the Legion, a Spartan, and terminators. Otherwise, you're gonna be sitting around on the board for turn 1, facing down double your points while Horus and his bodyguard wait to show up. And then? On turn 2, when you bring them in, they make a super-big splash, firing a multimelta (near-useless in 30k because of armored Ceramite) and Horus' bombardment (might actually be good for something, but is it really that much better than a single shot from a Medusa?). You're still basically doing nothing with your ~800 points of Horus + Justaerin for two turns, and on the turn they come in they will be conveniently bunched up and ready to eat a pie plate from a Typhon, or some shooting from a Predator Executioner, or some other manner of unpleasantness before they can even begin thinking of killing something worth their points starting on turn 3. Those 10 recon marines cost 250 points and are worse than the 20 tactical marines you could get for the same price. It is a unit that is literally twice as tough, and the sheer weight of bolter fire it can bring to bear through fury of the legion is staggering. Maybe if you go with the reading of Horus' rules that lets him ignore wounds taken on a 3+, you can justify taking him here. Personally? I don't think that's how they meant it to work, and you will probably just piss off anyone you play against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 I appreciate the feedback. I understand that some things are overcosted... so I'm thinking of taking the list up to 2500 points. How would you spend a further 500 points to improve the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphariusOmegon108 Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 More troops mate! Remove Horus, get a typhon tank, get 2 times 20 tacticals with some nice upgrades, try to get some more Anti tank, maybe remove the justearin and get a rapier squardon or two! Hope it helps!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molokai Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 I won't be fielding mortarion until I get to about 3500. It's a lot of points for one model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted May 11, 2014 Author Share Posted May 11, 2014 I really think the Primarch can be worth his points in a smaller game. I regularly play with expensive HQs in 40k games at 2k points, and I regularly see lists that Include pimped out Demon Princes for CSM as HQ choices - and they have far less utility than Horus, who makes the Justaerin termies and veteran units troops, allows deepstrike with no scatter, outflank and all the other bonuses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonstalker Posted May 11, 2014 Share Posted May 11, 2014 >makes the Justaerin termies and veteran units troops Not really a benefit. Making these units scoring does improve their value, but Justaerin are still overcosted (even after their points drop in the new book) and so are Vets. Compare the cost per guy for tacticals vs vets - you're paying a bunch more points for what? A USR and some extra melee attacks. The actual killing power you get for what you pay is... not enough. >allows deepstrike with no scatter Valuable in the right situation. However, in this instance all you're doing is delivering 7 or 800 points worth of Primarch and Terminators into the perfect range for the enemy to murder them. You deep strike them right next to the enemy's army, there isn't enough shooting in that squad to make a decisive alpha strike, you subject them to interceptor fire, you leave them all clumped up (Justaerin are in cataphractii armor, can't run to spread out...) so the enemy can drop every pie plate they have on them and get plenty of hits. You're also handicapping yourself. Even if Horus was alone, that's a powerful melee unit that makes up 1/4 of your army that is not materially contributing to the fight at all on turn 1, and can pretty much only serve as a target on turn 2 (assuming you elect to bring him in on turn 2). He does not start to really contribute to the fight until turn 3. So for 1/3 of the game, you're basically fighting 1500 points vs 2000 points just for holding Horus in reserve. Not only does Horus then have to do something to earn his points after he arrives, but then he has to work to make up for the beating you will have taken on turn 1 and 2 when fighting that outnumbered. >outflank and all the other bonuses Outflank. You want to put even more of your army in reserve? When you're already down in points on the table? >Ld bonus for entire detachment >Sieze on 4+ These two are actually universally worth something to your army and they are the bonuses you should have focused on in your evaluation of this unit. Controlling the start of the battle and the turn order are important, and higher Ld for your army will make 30k units (which lack ATSKNF) much more reliable. 30k armies can get very same-y at low points. The units are very specialized, very large, and expensive. So you need units that are good at what they do and can cover your bases - anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-air, melee, etc. This presents situations where you're pressured to take the best-in-slot or best-in-role choices to build a solid core before you look at choices that are less optimal - or just plain bad. 30k is quite balanced, but this doesn't make all units equally good. The power level is right on the mark to be a middle-of-the-road codex, and the equal access that legions have to most of the units makes for a very fair environment. Take Horus out of your list and you're looking at a 1500 point army, which is almost the smallest point at which you can really build a functional 30k list - things aren't going to really open up until you start getting 2000 points and over. IMO? You should build that 1500 point army, do it without your Justaerin, Horus, or those recon marines. Then think about how you add them in to get to 2k, to get to 2.5k, etc. You have approached your list building with your personal fluff/modelling choices first and army effectiveness second. Try approaching it the other way around and see what you come up with. Edit: Actually, I think the most important advice I can give you right now is "Wait." All signs point to a new edition landing in less than a month. See what it brings before you commit to any more purchases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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