[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[TemujinZero]

You said it yourself, fewer large units is better than many small units. 30k is built for big units, MSU is really hard to pull off because you're paying more pts to split the same number of bodies into different units. In addition, many 30k units are just expensive at their base cost, which means in small games (which is really 2k and below in 30k), MSU is virtually impossible to run well. 3k sure you can do it, it's just not the best way to run 30k armies.

 

Not sure why you think alpha legion would be good MSU, especially if you run their rite of war you really can't afford to run MSU because you're stuck with a 3 troop tax. The Legion that really does benefit from MSU is ultramarines, since you can "mark" a target with one unit then get rerolls for other units.

 

 

30K penalises MSU by charging you a load of points to run it, just like you're penalised for taking Horus by being charged a ton of points.  The point of discounting larger squads isn't necessarily to stamp out MSU, but to attach a proper cost to it.  MSU is inherently a strong list building strategy, and people will use it if it's worth the extra points they have to pay.

 

MSU is also not so uncommon in 30K despite the cost.  How many entries in the army list would you never run at minimum size?  The troops choices get huge discounts when taken at full size (as they should) and yet 10 man tactical squads are common.  Minimum size elites choices are also common.  Of course, an MSU in 30K is not at all small.  MSU doesn't exist in the way it does outside 30K because the starting size for most squads is a sizeable investment already.  But within the context of 30K, MSU is totally a thing, and is often taken into account despite the cost.

 

The Alpha Legion can pull MSU off better than most because they can infiltrate any number of squads into useful positions with their legion rule and not have to buy a bunch of transports.  They can also get a huge army wide shooting buff from their primarch.  MSU is a good way to let you efficiently dump a ton of firepower in your opponents face without the risk of losing your entire force to a successful counter attack.

[Terminus]

It's just hard to reconsile that label compared to what it means in 40K. Look at gladius, for example, now THAT's

 

In 40K terms, what you are describing is not Multiple Small Units, but Several Regular Units. As opposed to the typical 30K Legion set up of a few Few Huge Units And Then Tanks. :P

[Slips]

Like I said in another thread, MSU in 30k should mean Minimum Sized Units vs Multiple Small Units.

[Excessus]

Alpha Legion isn't the best legion when thinking of MSU though, since they are the masters of hubris! ;)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Spending 250pts on 20 Bolters is wasting 70pts on a unit that can otherwise get faster movement and immunity to bolters.

 

MSU might not mean what it means in 40K with their 90pt Dire Avenger 5man squads. 

[Slips]

Spending 250pts on 20 Bolters is wasting 70pts on a unit that can otherwise get faster movement and immunity to bolters.

 

MSU might not mean what it means in 40K with their 90pt Dire Avenger 5man squads. 

Or 81pt 3 man Scatter Laser Jetbike Squads....

 

Either way, the principle might still technically be applicable but it doesnt really work out the same :p

[GreyCrow]

Like others have said, the term MSU needs to be put contextually within the possibilities of the army list. 10 Tacticals in Rhinos is technically MSU because it's the minimum sized unit you can get within that system.

 

Where it differs in 30k compared to 40k is the fact that due to the discounts of going larger squads, you're not taking MSU as a doctrine to force overkill. In 40k, due to points being equivalent, it's more interesting to go MSU when you have the FOC slots and when you don't have access to combat squads than to go larger squads in many circumstances, and play these units side by side as if they were one. In effect, you play with overkill : you force your opponent to overkill your units, and you prevent your own units from overkilling the opponent because "half" of the squad can fire at a different target if the first target is destroyed.

 

In 30k, when you have a 50% tax (!) on the same number of bodies for running them as two separate units it's definitely not worth it.

 

However, like Hesh said, there are other advantages in running minimal tactical squads, being namely the access to transports that effectively protect them from anti-infantry firepower until they're ready to disembark. This follows the same general principle than MSU, but in a combined arms (transport + infantry) rather than in a supporting arms (doubling up on the number of units) that you find in 40k.

 

In effect, for any unit, you have 2 ways to add resilience : putting more bodies, or putting them in a transport. The caveat is that putting them in a transport is less expensive than putting more bodies and more effective to prevent damage, but it also does less damage than adding more dudes (assuming you keep the squad's purpose unified when you add more bodies, which you should, you're effectively doubling up the damage potential).

 

So, depending on what you want for units (and this applies to all that have access to transports) : take larger squads for more damage and take transports for resilience.

Edited January 4, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Guardian of the Rage]

Alpha Legion isn't the best legion when thinking of MSU though, since they are the masters of hubris! ;)

Can't believe that I missed that thanks for pointing it out.

 

I do see MSU as 'fluffy' for Alpha Legion so I will have to decide how 'fluffy' I want to be as that is very likely to be given away.

 

On the flip side, if I can use a Primus medicae 3 times then I would get this back on average. The chances of units being destroyed is high obviously.

 

Cheers,

[Terminus]

Martial Hubris is not something I would worry about. I would rather have a stronger list with more units, than try to put all my eggs in as few baskets as possible to avoid giving up that one VP. The old IA Alpha Legion did things in a complicated way to test themselves (now they seem to do it for fun/chaos), so think of this as a throwback to that, they give the opponent an objective right off the bat just to make things more interesting. :)

[Slips]

Merged into the Alpha Legion Tactica Thread since this is essentially what its become :x

[Terminus]

Merged into the Alpha Legion Tactica Thread since this is essentially what its become :x

Just as planned... muaHAHAHAHAHAHA! Eventually, the whole forum will be merged into an Alpha Legion Tactica Thread. We are Alpharius!

[Charlo]

Juuuuuuust to be totally sure. If you choose infiltrate as your mutable tactic, you don't need DT (rhinos) on all of your troops do you?

 

Currently list hammering and it's annoying having to drop points on LR and such... But such would be the price of Suzaerians.

[Terminus]

Juuuuuuust to be totally sure. If you choose infiltrate as your mutable tactic, you don't need DT (rhinos) on all of your troops do you?

 

Currently list hammering and it's annoying having to drop points on LR and such... But such would be the price of Suzaerians.

Ah, this old can of worms. :P

 

Basically ask your opponent. Technically rules as written, mutable tactics are chosen at the same time as warlord traits, which is long after the list-building exercise. On the other hand, a number of FW responses say they intended mutable tactics to qualify you for the rite. So RAW vs RAI, with no clear consensus either way.

 

In my opinion it's worthwhile to invest in the transport just for more options.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The Order of operations is choose your list, roll Warlord Traits, choose your Mutable Tactics, Deploy, Play. To have a legal army list, you must meet all the prerequisites. As you don't have Infiltrate at the time of list building, the list isn't legal. So, no. You need to have Dedicated Transports.

 

Few people (including myself) really bother with that distinction, although it's worthwhile checking with any Tournament Organisers (or other arbitrary body) if that's a relevance. In regards to FW's opinion, they have not bothered to update the FAQ, although we'll likely be due some updated rules come February which may (heh, good joke) have it fixed by then. They have given email responses (supposedly) according members on here stating that it was intended that way, yet I've yet to receive a straight answer from them that doesn't basically say "but feel free to houserule amongst yourselves".

[Charlo]

Thought as much. Thanks for the replies.

 

I'm loving getting PE on everything from Alpharius but I think him and Coils is overkill at 2500, he and that third troops choice just eats into your points. By the time you get some Rewards of Treason and another decent unit or so that's it.

 

I think Dynat with Coils or even Pride would be better...

 

Whats a good anti tank/ super heavy option for AL?

[Terminus]

I'm all for it letting you run coils without transports, not because I don't want to buy transports, but because I want to use Skorr's strategic trait (which happens even earlier than mutable tactics) when I need it, so I essentially get to cherry-pick two USRs for the whole army.

[d@n]

It's pretty fun to use the night attacker warlord trait with skorr when playing against the night lords.

[Hesh Kadesh]

As a Dynat player, I don't think you need to run any Rite of War.

 

Remember, Alpha Legion are already at a loss for taking lots of smaller units, so your opponent will be prioritising killing the easy troops first. While you can mitigate that by turtling up and running as defensive as possible, I don't think Alpha Legion are particularly adept (not that they get penalties for doing so) at hunkering down. If it's about getting down, consider;

 

Infiltrate

Skorr, with Night Attacker (means that Night Lords don't get to benefit from the continuation of terror assault and +1 to initiative, plus Stealth), 125

 

Graviton x3, 225

 

Tac Squad, Rhino = 180

Tac Squad, Rhino = 180

 

Deredeo, Aiolos, 220

Medusa Squadron x2, 315

 

Macro-Cannon Aquila Strongpoint, Ammo Store, Escape Hatch, Void Shield = 600

 

Allied Solar Auxilia; 

Legate Commander, 45

Graviton x3; 210

Veletaris Storm Section, 115

Malcador Infernus, Chems; 290

 

= 2500pts

 

It gives you a 2 shot Strength D weapon, a Super Heavy with a Pinning AP2 Fleshbane Torrent Hellstorm, a total of 8 Alpha Legion units (4 of which start off the board - the Rhino squads), using Infiltrate to get Line of Sight on your Legion rapiers to those tanks hiding out of Line of Sight of the main gun and the SA Rapiers. Everything squishy is behind armour.  It's also kind of fluffy. Traitor Auxilia aid an embattled Alpha Legion infiltrator who attacks in the cover of darkness to gain control of a weapons facility while allied units rush to support, while his squad pick up the heavy rapier carriers and Medusae that helped defend the facility, while a Deredeo... yeah, I'm lost at that, but it's too good not to include.

 

Sure, you can probably build more powerful deathstar units - a pair of Pride Terminators kitted out with every bit of nonesense you can do and popped in a pair of pimped out Spartans, backed up by Alpharius and some Land Raider Achilles, but I don't think that would be as powerful. It would be rather interesting to see a list like that though. Alpharius steaming to the fray... Ah feth it. Here we go;

 

Tank Hunters (if I take Infiltrate, Alpharius can't deploy unless I do hidden deployment, which costs 35pts)

Vigilator, Void Shield Harness, Nanyte Blaster, 165

 

Terminator Squad, 5 Additional, 2 Plasma Blasters, 3 Chainfists, 2 Hammers, 3 Pair of Lightning Claws, Cataphractii = 475

Terminator Squad, 5 Additional, 2 Plasma Blasters, 5 Combi-weapons, 3 Chainfists, 2 Hammers, 3 Pair of Lightning Claws, Cataphractii = 510

Spartan, Aux Drive, Flare Shield, AC = 350

Spartan, Aux Drive, Flare Shield, AC = 350

 

Primaris-Lightning, 6x Kraken Penetrators, Battle Servitor, Ground Tracking Auguries, = 235

 

Alpharius, 415

 

That's about 2000. Couldn't get the multiple Achilles in. Ah well. 

 

The thing with that list is that if you lost Alpharius, and your dudes and you still lose more than your opponent, not only does he get Kill the Warlord, and Martial Hubris, that's a swing of +5 before you take into account scoring, of which you have two slow units which cannot run and are too short ranged.

[ak1508]

I recently made a bunch of AL lists and here's my 2K list:

 

HQ

 

- Chaplain (joins the large tac squad)

- Exodus (joins the recon squad)

 

Troops

 

- Recon Squad x8 (recon armour and sniper rifles)

- Legion tactical squad x19 (srgt art armour + power fist, all replace bolters with chainswords)

- Legion Tactical squad x10 + Rhino

 

Elites

 

- Apothecary (joins the recon squad)

 

Fast Attack

 

- Jetbikes x6 (1x multi-melta + 1x volkite culverin)

 

Heavy Support

 

- Spartan (AC + Flare Shield, used for the large tac squad)

 

LoW

 

- Alpharius

 

Not perfect, but can be fun im sure, especially against some of my friends 40K tau lists :D 

[Charlo]

@Hesh All good points. I don't like the first list as it's not my style (even though I advocate the hell out of that SA allied force!) as spending 600 on a D box seems a little wasteful of the Heresy setting and Legion. Leave that to the Fists/ Perts lads. The second one is cool, but too much the other way aha.

 

This is mostly a Mash of cool AL units designed to take advantage of infiltrate and PE from Alpharius. Model count is probably low, but it seems okay. The Moritat was with some destroyers but I took them out as there is just no making them mega useful. Put in a plasma squad in a dread claw instead.

 

Thoughts?

 

+++ Alphas (2500pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (2500pts) ++

 

+ HQ (390pts) +

 

Legion Centurion (230pts) [Artificer Armour, Jump Pack, Melta Bombs, Refractor Field, The Drakaina, Void Shield Harness, Volkite Serpenta]

····Consul [Moritat]

 

Legion Centurion (160pts) [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, Cyber-familiar, Power Dagger, Rad Grenades]

····Consul [Forge Lord]

 

+ Troops (615pts) +

 

Legion Tactical Squad (205pts) [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Melta Bombs, Power Dagger]

 

Legion Tactical Squad (205pts) [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Tactical Space Marines, Legion Vexilla]

····Legion Tactical Sergeant [Melta Bombs, Power Dagger]

 

Legion Tactical Support Squad (205pts) [5x Legion Space Marines, Plasma Guns] So 6 guns in total.

 

+ Elites (270pts) +

 

Lernaen Terminator Squad (270pts) [Chainfist, 4x Lernean Terminator, Plasma Blaster]

····Harrower [Chainfist, Venom Sphere Harness]

 

+ Fast Attack (100pts) +

 

Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (100pts)

 

+ Heavy Support (710pts) +

 

Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought (220pts) [Aiolos Missile Launcher]

 

Legion Heavy Support Squad (280pts) [7x Legion Space Marines, Volkite Culverin]

····Legion Sergeant [Augury Scanner]

 

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer (210pts) [Armoured Ceramite]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [XX: Alpha Legion]

 

+ Lord of War (415pts) +

 

Alpharius (415pts)

Edited January 6, 2016 by Charlo

[Terminus]

Ak1508, your list makes my brain hurt. That recon squad, those jetbikes! Tau will have their way with that list up and down, as would orks or dark Eldar or a small pack of newborn puppies. :P

[ak1508]

Ak1508, your list makes my brain hurt. That recon squad, those jetbikes! Tau will have their way with that list up and down, as would orks or dark Eldar or a small pack of newborn puppies.

 

Explain please? Cheers!

[Terminus]

There is nothing in the army that is threatening except Alpharius, and he's not exactly an army crusher by himself.  All you have is chainswords and sniper rifles. Who cares if they have preferred enemy, when they aren't going to be killing anything of note? Recon squads are the worst unit in the book, and you built them as your star player. A few Legions can make the large tac squad out of an assault vehicle thing work, but Alpha Legion is not one of them, even if you added the Apothecary to the mix as well. The Jetbikes are actually an alright unit (at least by 30K standards, they are ridiculously overpriced by 40K standards), but you stick a random multi-melta in there.

[ak1508]

There is nothing in the army that is threatening except Alpharius, and he's not exactly an army crusher by himself.  All you have is chainswords and sniper rifles. Who cares if they have preferred enemy, when they aren't going to be killing anything of note? Recon squads are the worst unit in the book, and you built them as your star player. A few Legions can make the large tac squad out of an assault vehicle thing work, but Alpha Legion is not one of them, even if you added the Apothecary to the mix as well. The Jetbikes are actually an alright unit (at least by 30K standards, they are ridiculously overpriced by 40K standards), but you stick a random multi-melta in there.

 

Thats the thing, 30K stuff just doesnt properly fit the 40K format, and also ATSKNF is not available to legion marines :( Also, putting in things like Sicarans and Scorpius... dunno, they can probably do things, but can be easily blown up by Tau weapons. Same for the Dreads... what do you recon?

[Slips]

If your main problem is Tau, its pretty doable to tailor a list to exploit their weaknesses but it might not be something your looking for.