[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[Liquid_O]

So random question about something I ran into on another forum. For Rewards of Treason, which units are we allowed to steal? The way I read it we can choose any non-unique unit and it becomes an elites slot for us. However, I heard an alternate take on it stating that the unit we steal has to be an elites choice to begin with.

 

First time it's come up for me, (I'd rather not get into the whole RAW/RAI ambiguous wording of it) what is the way y'all play it?

[Caillum]

Doesn't say at any point that the choice must initially be an Elites choice. Someone is not reading it correctly. Basically, all the Legion-specific units are available, including unusual ones like Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnoughts, The Iron Circle and Darkwing Pattern Storm Eagles.

[Terminus]

In fact, you can also take any options that unit has available, so if you bring Mor Deythan you could bring a Darkwing as their ride as well.

 

But yes, all the units are pretty much fair game who aren't characters.

[AfroCampbell]

In fact, you can also take any options that unit has available, so if you bring Mor Deythan you could bring a Darkwing as their ride as well.

 

But yes, all the units are pretty much fair game who aren't characters.

 

What do people generally take?

Raven Wing units in general i imagine would have the best synergy.

[Liquid_O]

I've seen a lot of people running TH/SS Firedrakes.

 

I haven't run them yet, but I'm building Mor Deythan, Gal Vorbak and Siege Tyrants, I think they could all be pretty useful. Especially gal Vorbak because they fill that tough hammer unit role and have deep strike so they don't need to have a DT to get you out of infiltrating everything.

[Charlo]

Also Tyrants are awesome as they are Elites for AL!

[Terminus]

Gal Vorbak don't have Legionnes Astartes, so can't infiltrate anyway. I'd always put them in a dreadclaw.

 

I did a big write up of this like 12 pages ago, but that was before the newest updates.

 

Most people go for close combat troops since we have no real close combat elites of our own. So Firedrakes for defensive melee terminators, or Red Butchers for offensive melee terminators. We now have Phoenix Guard who have WS5/Stubborn and the only specialist terminators that can sweep, but you lose initiative when charging and in challenges by running them as Alphas, and they are way too expensive with no guns anyway.

 

For non-terminator options, there are the Gal Vorbak who are great at shredding infantry. You also have two varieties of jump troops for that task, the offensive Dark Furies (master-crafted rending shredding Lightning Claws, +1S/I on charge) and defensive Locutarus (only power swords but have artificer armor for not dying and can double tap plasma pistols on arrival). My favorite unit in this category is actually the Suzerain, who are basically Phoenix Terminators (2+/5++), who can sweep and have AP2 weapons at initiative (except all the time), and aren't bulky while being chosen warriors and buffing militia allies.

 

For more flexible units that sacrifice some melee lethality for shooting, you again first have varieties of terminators. Now we also have Justaerin who are probably the best general Terminators, as they are Legion terminators with 2 wounds and much better in combat with WS5, stubborn, and furious charge. They lose a lot not being Sons of Horus, though, both BS5 for shooting and merciless fighters in melee. Both the Death Guard variants have gotten better, but I haven't looked at them too closely. Tyrants are a very popular choice for good reason. They may be primarily heavy ranged support, but they can anchor a line and serve as a counter charge unit with their 4++ and power fists. Alphas can infiltrate them or give them tank hunter and generally use them better than Iron Warriors can.

 

Finally you have the power armoured schmucks. Mor Deythan are the Super Seekers that Headhunters have nightmares about. Terror squads make for brutal preferred enemy volkite infiltrators. Reavers can be built many was since they are a cross between assault, veteran and seeker marines. And then there are the Iron Havocs, BS5 tank hunting support squad who can bring the cheap antiaircraft missiles.

 

Your cup runeth over.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Terminus

[Liquid_O]

Deathshroud look attractive as cheap 2 wound offensive terminators now that they can sweep and are no longer unwieldy. Ap2 for TEQ and meq, shredding Flamers for antihoard and melta bombs for vehicles. Only WS4 and not stubborn but ld10 Edited February 20, 2016 by Liquid_O

[Terminus]

And don't forget, if you don't mind bringing an extra character, you can always bring stuff as allies.

 

For example, you can take Zardu as an allied HQ with the Last of the Serrated Sun Rite, and bring one or two units of Gal Vorbak in dedicated dreadclaws. 

 

Or you can bring Maloghurst the Twisted. He won't be scoring since he's not the warlord, but he still projects a 6" fearless bubble and opens up Sons of Horus Veterans and Reavers as troop choices without taking a rite at all.

[Ibnyhwh]

When fielding the Reconnaissance squad would it be best fielding full strength while spending points gearing them up or go cheap as possible, half strength?

[Fallen11]

What's actually benefit of taking coils, except 3 tactical tax, you actually pay a lot when you can just take allies/shattered legions and be done with that?  Can you ally detachment also use ROW if you take praetor/delegatus?

When counting points for LOW, which only your main FOC has, right? If you for example have 1500 pts of main army, and 1000pts of allies in 2,5k army, does same restriction apply, 25% of 2,5k, 25% of 1,5k or you can't have LOW since your main detachment is 1500pts?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Take Tac Tax, Get Unit with additional special rule, only tkes elite choice.

 

Or Take Ally, pay Tac and HQ tax, don't get LA special rules

 

Plus, Coils nopes reserve/beta Strike lists, but otherwise, yeah. It is a poor RoW.

 

Allies can take RoW if Praetor, but not Delegatus (must be warlord, but it is not in Primary Detachment).

 

I'm AFB to check on LoW point requirements, but I believe it is army, not detachment.

[Charlo]

I tried for ages to get coils to work in list hammer, but the tax just makes it unwieldy. Especially as the Heresy has no escalated and things like Phosphex shell quad guns, vindicator squads and leviathans can nope blobs.

 

AL are best just using a generic rite and then using mutable to fully turn it up to 11.

 

Shattered legions are also opponents permission only, so it puts a bit of a spanner in that, he'll otherwise if maybe be making a crazy Meduson lead Bro team.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Well, three compulsory troop choices is something that can still be easily included, in fact sometimes you might need them even.

 

The main issue with CotH is, that all the infantry units either have to infiltrate or deep strike or ride a dedicated transport. 

Which ups the 'tax' profoundly and screws with the rest of your potential list.

If you really, really want to rock out with your cock out and bring Tyrant Siege terminators or a Mhara Gal to the table, then you will be able to make CotH work, no doubt. It's just not easy to achieve at lower points levels like 2.000 and below.

 

But I gotta agree with Charlo, Alpha Legion excel at selecting a 'generic' RoW and adapting it to their own purpose through the use of Mutable Tactics and / or specific Warlord Traits.

These days, I'm heavily into Legion Recon Company and good ol' PotL.

[Balthamal]

I'm dabbling with both PotL and Chosen Duty at the moment, just trying to find the best synergy with units/rules/characters.

 

Dynat works really well in a podded list with podded contemptors and Leviathans too but tbh I don't want a podded army.

 

Skorr is amazing for both especially doubling up infiltrate and scout on 3 units, seekers and outriders really benefit from that. 

 

Even without named characters Veterans as troops is till decent.

 

 

The rub is taking a Praetor for Potl or a Delegatus for Chosen Duty (which imo is the better RoW as Terminators are scoring anyway and you're not giving up the VP if they all die)

 

My question would be what synergizes well with that in terms of units? Podded Levis are almost a must because they rock

[Charlo]

Recon Company with Dynat and tank hunters or scout mutable. Compulsory troops that, when invested in get mad cover saves and absolutely destroy vehicles with +3 to the damage table.

 

Melta bomb your tank on a 4+ per pen, sir?

 

Not to mention you get the free deep strike of Dynat.

 

Sure your tanks have to start in reserve but with scout mutable you get outflank. Absolutely wreck face.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Exactly.

 

 

Tanks would only be able to outflank though if they were transporting units with the LA (Alpha Legion) rules.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Unknown Legionnaire

[Hesh Kadesh]

Well, three compulsory troop choices is something that can still be easily included, in fact sometimes you might need them even.

 

The main issue with CotH is, that all the infantry units either have to infiltrate or deep strike or ride a dedicated transport.

Which ups the 'tax' profoundly and screws with the rest of your potential list.

If you really, really want to rock out with your cock out and bring Tyrant Siege terminators or a Mhara Gal to the table, then you will be able to make CotH work, no doubt. It's just not easy to achieve at lower points levels like 2.000 and below.

 

But I gotta agree with Charlo, Alpha Legion excel at selecting a 'generic' RoW and adapting it to their own purpose through the use of Mutable Tactics and / or specific Warlord Traits.

These days, I'm heavily into Legion Recon Company and good ol' PotL.

It requires 105pts in Rhinos. Or something different like Infiltrating Grav Breachers (if we ignore that ridiculous order of operations that FW don't have a clue about) or Move Through Cover Assault Marines (as Jump Infantry, they don't need a DT).

 

It lends to abdifferent playstyle, or you can take 3 Rhinos and have 3 Scoring units in an AV11 3HP vehicle that gives them Fast Movement in exchange for the loss of otherwise desultory shooting.

 

Compared to 50pts minimum of pure tax on a Centurion.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Now, if only three units of assault marines weren't so big of an investment in terms of points.

 

But yeah, CotH works. One just has to figure out how. 

[Terminus]

Coils would be more useful if they clarify the fulfillment issues and generally improve on the basic troop choices.  I've said this before, but I'll keep saying it until it happens.  Fury of the Legion should be usable after moving, Breachers should come with free melta-bombs, and Assault Marines should be 50 points cheaper for the base unit.  It's sad to watch new Legion players start with a bunch of grunts, and slowly watch their lists morph into artillery and tanks.  As someone who dabbles in legions, auxilia, cults and all the Mechanicum branches, Leegions have the absolute worst troops by a huge margin.

 

In 3000+ games the third compulsory is not a huge tax.  Hell, if the third troop choice didn't have to be compulsory and could be a support squad or something, it would be very workable in smaller games too.

[Fallen11]

Tactical marine in 40k is one of the worst troop choices. Now in 30k he looses special and heavy weapon options and runns like a little girl from combat usually when faced with anything remotly dedicated for cc. So compared with other choices tacticals are almost redundant, simply tax, cannon fodder that mostly won't earn his points back. You rarely get to use fury of the legion because when enemy is within 12 you usually get charged or enemy is outside of 12, so it's not really worth it.

I very much lime pride of the legion because veterans are awesome! For 50pts more than tacricals you get so much more utility from them. Even in combat they have 30 attacks compared to 10 from tacticals.

I simply discovered than loading on armor works much better than loading on troops.

Also, thudd guns are broken.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

... tacticals are almost redundant, simply tax, cannon fodder that mostly won't earn his points back. 

...

 

And they're your best and cheapest source of scoring units outside of various RoW.

 

30k doesn't play like 40k in the slightest  ... and even in 40k I can't just categorize units if they 'earn their points back' or not. 

[Fallen11]

Scoring won't help you if you are dead, simple as that.

 

I fully support playing with a lot of tacticals and troops, but when you bring bunch of tacticals and enemy brings, thudds, leviathan, basilisk/vindicator/typon/scorpius and the list goes on, your tacticals will die withouth acomplishing almost anything.

 

If both players agree lets bring lots of troops and we won't bring big scary blasts that simply remove those troops from game, then it's okay.

20 marines with apotechary is 300pts, more when you add sargent with some stuff. For those poi ts you can really bring scary marine killers that your marines wont be able to touch at all.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Fallen11

[Lord Asvaldir]

I really think tacticals need to be able to do fury of the legion and move in one turn to really make them worth it. Not being able to move makes fury much worse, a wise opponent just won't let you get fury. One reason coils doesn't appeal to me that much, I don't want to take three tactical units.  

[Hesh Kadesh]

Scoring won't help you if you are dead, simple as that.

 

I fully support playing with a lot of tacticals and troops, but when you bring bunch of tacticals and enemy brings, thudds, leviathan, basilisk/vindicator/typon/scorpius and the list goes on, your tacticals will die withouth acomplishing almost anything.

 

If both players agree lets bring lots of troops and we won't bring big scary blasts that simply remove those troops from game, then it's okay.

20 marines with apotechary is 300pts, more when you add sargent with some stuff. For those poi ts you can really bring scary marine killers that your marines wont be able to touch at all.

They're not dead if they're in reserve. Keep them in reserve as long as possible, bring them on and zip as fast as possible to objectives to deny/control, win game.