[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[Terminus]

Hammer of wrath and S5 assault deflagrate guns make them better at cleaning up chaff than Legion terminators, but clashes with their melee AP2 armament, and perhaps most egregiously, you're forced to pay for the volkite charges which are simply not worth 7 points each (and to make it fun, the guy buying a plasma blaster has to pay for the volkite first).

 

So to say they "only pay 3 points for Stubborn and WS5" is disingenuous.

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Now they are essentially a side-grade to Seekers, who trade their one turn of preferred enemy for infiltrate, and swap special issue rounds for banestrike, daggers and venom spheres, and are 15 points cheaper for a 5-man unit with combi-weapons. Each additional guy makes that point-cost advantage shrink by 2 points.

 

 

Oh, for sure they were nerfed. 

Losing PE was a big deal, since essentially this was the one USR defining them.

Banestrike is a lot worse than special issue Bolter rounds in my book.

Yes, they are able to take combi-weapons now, big deal, just like everybody was crying they would need to be able to.

But ... they never were meant to function like seekers in the first place.

Now, after their glorious update of course, they merely are some sort of seekers.

Sad.

 

 

And in regards to Lernaeans:

Yes, that one terminator picking up the (near compulsory) Plasma Blaster is going to pay a 7 pts. 'tax' or whatever you want to call it.

Big deal. So I'm paying 22 pts. (5 x 3 + 7) for stubborn and WS 5. 

And honestly, they don't need to pick up combi guns, 'cause they function with STR 5 Deflagrate like a charm in their dedicated role.

[Charlo]

Hammer of wrath and S5 assault deflagrate guns make them better at cleaning up chaff than Legion terminators, but clashes with their melee AP2 armament, and perhaps most egregiously, you're forced to pay for the volkite charges which are simply not worth 7 points each (and to make it fun, the guy buying a plasma blaster has to pay for the volkite first).

 

So to say they "only pay 3 points for Stubborn and WS5" is disingenuous.

I'd say a S5 gun with two shots that have the potential to cause four wounds Is certainly worth 7pts.

 

They should have gotten Calivers though for the range and to make them unique and also utilise Relentless.

 

I think that would make them pretty dang good. Theyre supposed to cap points and hold them according to the fluff.

 

I'm basically quoting eye of horus but instead of a beamer they shouldve gotten access to culverins <3

 

Choominators ready.

[Terminus]

@Charlo: That would give them a solid mid-field presence and would work well with infiltrate. Would be nice. I don't consider 4 BS4 volkite chargers worth the effectively 35 points you're paying for them, but to each his own. I have a hard time paying 7 each for them on reavers (who are BS5, can spam them, and it meshes with their melee weapons), when support squads get calivers for 5.

 

@UL: In the past, considered them practically worthless and niche before with mediocre melee and range, only good to give a character PE (not worth ~200pts IMO). Now they are still practically worthless and have a different niche (better Seekers with Alpharius or Seeker proxies). The second option gives me more opportunities to use the models, so I don't consider it a net nerf. Trust me, I'd be over the moon if they kept PE and got combis. Or if they could have double daggers, that would be sweet.

[rendingon1+]

My opponent uses Lerneans as pure cc unit, sometimes he even forgets they have vchargers. For me WS5 (hitting more often), Stubborn (less likely to run away) and Harrower with 5A on the charge (with 1 reroll if MC weapon) makes a pretty good melee unit. Of course they are cataphractii so are less mobile than PA or Tartaros but nevertheless I consider them good.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think the issue with Lerneans is they just don't stick out compared to the really good unique legion terminators like firedrakes, justerians and tyrant siege terminators. That doesn't make them bad, ws5 is great to have, gives them an edge over any legion that can't field ws5 terminators, and having volkites is always cool. They just might be better off if they were less expensive and didn't have volkite, since often Lerneans are going to go up against other terminators where volkites are not that useful. 

[v6v77]

Just got my copy of the new book and i am not impressed.

 

Skorr lost his pick a walord trait ability. Can someone confirm if this is the case or am i being blind.

[Balthamal]

No he can still choose from the strategic pool

[TemujinZero]

5 Lernaeans with power fists and a chainfist/power dagger on the harrower in a dreadclaw are a solid unit.  They run 15 points extra over a vanilla unit with combi-weapons, and lose out to them in terms of shooting, but have plenty of extra combat performance.  I run one unit of Lernaeans in a dreadclaw and two vanilla tartaros units infiltrating on foot.  They're not a big flashy unit like Red Butchers or Tyrants, but they bring enough to justify their modest extra cost, which is more than can be said for a whole heap of sub-par unique units from other legions.

 

Some obligatory math hammer:

 

Combat against 5 power fist cataphractii:  wounds inflicted on charge / wounds inflicted without charge

 

5 power fist cataphractii:  3.125 / 2.083

5 power fist cataphracti with PE from Alpharius:  4.253 / 2.836

5 power fist lernaeans with PE from Alpharius:  6.427 / 4.537

 

2 extra attacks and WS5 makes a big difference - the Lernaeans hit that magic damage output where they will on average rolls wipe out a 5 man cataphractii squad even if they don't make the charge.  This is enough to make them attractive despite the loss of strong shooting.  They're not auto-take, but they are a tool in our arsenal.

[Terminus]

Why take them at all with Alpharius? Take a command squad which costs about the same, has WS5, fearless bubble, and proper weapons.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Can only take a 3 man Squad too so fits in a Dreadclaw.

[TemujinZero]

A command squad is +30 points for the same build. They get +1 wound, fearless instead of stubborn, and combi weapons, but lose 1 attack and aren't scoring. Definitely worth magnetising the weapons at least.

 

As for only being able to take 3, I just view that as a useful test of how sensible my opponent is. Anyone who insists on playing that as written is best avoided.

[Terminus]

Erm... Why? The unit is 3-strong with two optional members. What's the problem?

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Let's see ...

 

Lernaean Terminators:  WS 5, stubborn USR, 4++, master-crafted chainfist, count as a scoring unit ...  disadvantage: can't sweep

Command Squad:  WS 5, 'Chosen Warriors', unit size customisable (3-5), fearless, 2+, option for combat shields, power weapons  ... disadvantage: non-scoring unit

                              Plus, in my humble experience, the fearless 'bubble' doesn't account for much, since it's only 6''. Not much of a difference compared to fearless Vet Tacs.

Veteran Tacticals:  Customisable USR (fearless / furious charge), power weapons, count as scoring unit, option to sprinkle your melee unit with 2 special weapons ... disadvantage:  only 3+ (2++ on the squad leader)

 

Now, everyone can go figure which of the units is best for their individual list / tactics / whatever.

[TemujinZero]

We're talking cataphractii command squads. The option for the 2 additional members is not available for a terminator command squads if you read the rules in a particular way (as in like a troll).

[Unknown Legionnaire]

A Cataphractii Command Squad is even worse than a regular one in my book, heh.

[AfroCampbell]

Actually if you think about it, If you are like me and alway use infiltrate for your Mutable Tactic, then i like to think i am kinda also paying the extra for this in the 'tax' you pay to use Lernean over other special termies. 

In this way it kind of brings them into line with Imperial Fists termies with the 15pt upgrade....kinda... if anyone gets what I am getting at..... 

I know people are just gonna argue that we get that rule ANYWAY, but nobody else gets free deepstrike or infiltrate for termies.

[hivey]

What would be the best combi-weapon for headhunters? Im thinking plasma or melta.

[Terminus]

Let's see ...

 

Lernaean Terminators:  WS 5, stubborn USR, 4++, master-crafted chainfist, count as a scoring unit ...  disadvantage: can't sweep

Command Squad:  WS 5, 'Chosen Warriors', unit size customisable (3-5), fearless, 2+, option for combat shields, power weapons  ... disadvantage: non-scoring unit

                              Plus, in my humble experience, the fearless 'bubble' doesn't account for much, since it's only 6''. Not much of a difference compared to fearless Vet Tacs.

Veteran Tacticals:  Customisable USR (fearless / furious charge), power weapons, count as scoring unit, option to sprinkle your melee unit with 2 special weapons ... disadvantage:  only 3+ (2++ on the squad leader)

 

Now, everyone can go figure which of the units is best for their individual list / tactics / whatever.

You forgot the 35-point volkite tax in Lerneans as a disadvantage, and the extra wound for command squads as an advantage. But yeah, the bubble doesn't count for much even on a terminator, and I would trade it for flat fearless since you can lose it if the banner dies. I personally wouldn't spend 10 points on master-crafting a chainfist (when that can buy me another chainfist), but to each his own.

 

@Temujin: regarding not being able to take additional members beyond 3 for a terminator command squad did come up once locally. Literally the whole shop went silent as the grave, and everyone just turned around looked at the guy, and after a minute he said nevermind and we went on about our business.   I think you misunderstood Hesh's comment, he wasn't saying "you can ONLY take 3", he was saying "you CAN only take 3", which would leave room for a transport. He was saying it's a perk, not a limitation.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Terminus

[ANGRYMARINE]

Does anyone here use Alpha Legion as allies? I'm thinking of using a delegatus with his special rite and 2 full veteran squads to support some Death Guard. Eventually I'd probably add in a squad of Lernaeans with a conversion beamer.

 

I feel it'd be pretty flexible as is with mutable tactics and veteran tactics together.

[TemujinZero]

I don't think a Delegatus can't be taken in an allied detachment because they have to be the warlord unless the Primarch is present.  You'd have to run a Praetor and have at least 1000 points for a RoW.

[Joasht]

I'm slowly reading through this (very long) thread, but it seems like the consensus is that most of the AL-specific units are kinda "meh".

 

If I were to start AL, what would you recommend me to pick up?

 

It seems like they are less vehicle-reliant than the other Legions (probably due to infiltrate), although I'd imagine that gives them some survivability/anti-armor issues if they go completely on foot.

[Excessus]

Fortunately we have the option through our RoW to choose another legion's special units. :)

[Excessus]

Though personally I don't mind the Lernaean terminators, they pack a punch.

[hivey]

Ive had a squad of 10 powerfist lernaeans take out a squad of 6 firedrakes and vulkan, in one turn. They are devastating on the charge.