Withershadow Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Eh, you're paying 41 points for a BS5 tactical marine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Yeah that's why the whole squad doesn't have combis, maybe just half. Especially in an army like AL where you have easy access to scout/infiltrate I think it's effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civsmitty Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 More like a Sternguard with better special ammo, +1 BS, and Preferred Enemy (Whatever unit you hate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 Right, I am just of a mind that they are already expensive enough at base that you want to keep them further back and use their heavy rounds, rather than trying to throw them into rapid fire/charge range with their 1 base attack each. 10 naked Seekers cost as much (within 5 points) as 10 veterans with combi-weapons. 5 Seekers with combi-weapons cost as much as 5 Terminators with combi-weapons. 10 Seekers with combi-weapons cost as much as 10 veterans with combi-weapons and a Master of Signal. Just sayin'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civsmitty Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Seekers have a different job and are generally more versatile than Terminators or Veterans. I take them when I know I'll need a good flex unit, one I can plug in somewhere and have it handle 2+ or 3+ armor. Adding combis to that just increases their particular set of skills, acquired over the years. Add in Mutable Tactics and DT options, and you've got a nice surprise unit that can handle being brought in on the wrong damn flank. And I both love and hate the argument that a unit is expensive therefore not as useful. Love it, because it means that nobody has a counter. Hate it, because it's a silly argument. A Lord of War is expensive, yet my TD Vindicators eat those for breakfast. Bet money they still see the table. A fully stacked unit of seekers can and often will make their points back. Anecdotal: I had a unit of Seekers eat the vaunted Suzerains for breakfast, using nothing but blast templates. Left Guilliman open to massed Predator and TD Vindicator fire. TL;DR: all units in the army books have their uses, if you think laterally enough. Edited February 21, 2017 by civsmitty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) A unit that shoots stuff is not more versatile than a unit that can shoot and melee. Your cost rant is a strawman, because we aren't just talking about cost, but cost-performance ratio. Let's see an effective use of Destroyers. I'll wait. Edited February 21, 2017 by Withershadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarkaira Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 ^ Destroyers look good on a display... Withershadow 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 ^ Destroyers look good on a display... Touché, I have been vanquished! I'm actually considering incorporating them (the models), into my collection as assault marines. Fenbain 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
civsmitty Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 A unit that shoots stuff is not more versatile than a unit that can shoot and melee. Your cost rant is a strawman, because we aren't just talking about cost, but cost-performance ratio. Let's see an effective use of Destroyers. I'll wait. I'm confused as to the Destroyer hate, as they've made my life unpleasant when I've faced them. Mainly in melee against Tacs, but that's because my opponent chose his target wisely. I know my rant is unhinged, but I firmly stand against the concepts of netlisting, meta buillds, and the like. I've been effective with Seekers, points be damned. Team them with Veterans kitted for punching stuff and you've got a good build. Not every unit has to do every thing well, as you can fill the gap with another unit and run them in teams (combined arms armies are my design philosophy, with as much redundancy as points allow). Cornelias 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Well there's the problem with your example-they were only effective in melee verses tacticals, and even in that case the only advantage they have over tacs is the rad grenades. So many other units that have access to power weapons like veterans, terminators and even assault marines would take care of tacs much quicker than destroyers. I don't think anyone is saying seekers are bad, especially in an army like AL with easy access to scout/infiltrate seekers do shine. It's just that veterans are more cost effective and versatile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 It has nothing to do with netlisting or meta-gaming, but effective use of a finite amount of points. All this diatribe about "combined tactics and tagteams" is meaningless because this isn't real life, it's an abstracted war game with specific mechanics and limits. Destroyer "hate" is due to the fact that they are relatively unexceptional, being a combination of a tactical and an assault marine, while costing as much as a tactical and an assault marine combined, and yet being worse than either at their jobs. No one is saying BS5 preferred enemy plasma guns are bad, but when you have the mentality of "points be damned", you are essentially fall into the trap of overspending and end up with a small army that is easily taken apart and overwhelmed. I am just saying that unless maybe you're in a pod and delivery of those combi-weapons to the PE-target is guaranteed, the improved rounds on seekers already make them "good enough" without needing to spend additional points, and if you're after CQB units, veterans are overall more versatile and competent, while being cheaper. Really every crazy thing you've said so far only supports my argument. "I killed a whole unit of Suzerain with frag templates!" Great, fantastic, so you have evidence in front of you that the basic rounds are adequate and you didn't need those one-time plasma shots at all. I am actually advocating for "combined tactics" using multiple affordable units, rather than one mega unit with all the upgrades that can do everything that you are advocating. So you are arguing against yourself. I guess I'm still waiting... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarkaira Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Destroyers are bad because although they have some versatily they do cost more than that versatily should cost. If they have half the efficiency of assault marines and half the efficiency of veterans why do they have to cost same as assault marines plus veterans!? I'd rather take veterans and assault marines than kit destroyers to be half of the both. If I had to take destroyers I would run them naked as they are most cost-efficient that way although saying cost-efficient in a same sentence as destroyers is insulting towards cost-effiecient units. Anyways all you people have said is arguments toward that running them naked is the best way although you still try to argue kitting them to be a valid option which it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronDrake28 Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I've had some success outflanking 10 of them in rhino with 2 rad MLs. Very expensive though... Running them naked is most cost effective but at that point a lot of other options would be more effective. It's an unfortunate situation. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 They should just cost as much as veterans at base and pay less for Jump packs than they do currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarkaira Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) That would do it. Otherwise they are just Resin for the Resin God! Edited February 22, 2017 by Jarkaira Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashc Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 I posted in the 'legion for you' thread commenting that I find that I think I settle on a legion choice but find I don't like being boxed in to a fixed style of play or tactics so I wondered if perhaps because of this I would really enjoy playing Alpha Legion. Obviously I know that it would be foolish to think that they could ever out-siege the fists or beat the world eaters in combat, but I like how you can be very adaptable and unpredictable with the legion. What do you see as the Alphas strengths vs. Other legions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen11 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 ofcourse you can outsiege fists, bring 9 medusas and 12 fosfex rapiers...job done :D . Not many fist or IW will bring stuff like this to table. AL way is to surprise the enemy and adopt tactics they don't expect :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 What is the collective's view on Headhunter Squads? I fancy running a squad of 5 with a heavy bolter. Cheers Vogon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddarz Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Every time someone asks that question I go on a pessimistic rant. But this time I'll try to highlight work past the negatives and see how Headhutners can actually be of use. So please, bear with meFirst things first.The HH are one of the worst, if not the actual worst, special unit in the game. This stems from the fact that they are massively expensive, but all their rules are very schizophrenic with no clear way to use them. Do you shoot? Do you charge? Either way they wont do much. Plus they got nerfed in the new red book and lost PE. Basically, their initial rules were 'ok', but there was a typo that restricted them to 'combi-bolters' instead of combi-weapons. WHile this was accepted as a typo (source Laurie Goulding), and was fixed in the new book, the design studio went ahead and made them some sub-par upgrade packs with unique combi-bolters - which no one will ever use...Final nail in the coffin is that they are restricted to the :cussty banestrike ammo and the :cusstiest RoW ever, Headhunter Leviathal. So, about those positives I mentioned. Well, they get 7pt combi weapons now. However they have no native access to rerolls like seekers or Mor Deythan so that doesn't count for much without Alpharius around.They have infiltrate, which is nice if you are using another mutable tactic, but that rarely happens. Oh and they lose that if you take a rhino (what? This doesn't happen to anyone else!). So forget about scouting them 12" for an alpha strike - assuming you paid for a vigilator to come with them.One thing that is often overlooked however is their access to a dreadclaw! Now this is pretty handy, but you might as well pay less points and get a terminator squad with similarly priced combi-weapons, 2+ armour, invuls, oh and power weapons..... (No joke, the termis are cheaper by far) Unless you need 10 combi weapons firing, but that is 500+ ptsAs HH are in the fast attack slot they may not be competing with the ever popular vets, contemptors and terminators, but they are outshinedd by seekers, who while they can't take the overpriced dreadclaw, can get PE for a turn, and then harass with their new AP2 special ammo (which is amazing). And most people would rather take speeders and lightnings.Hmm, those positives are hard to find... do they still have implacable advance at least? Oh wait, they lost that tooI guess they could work in ZM with the Headhunter Leviathal maybe? But why not take sniper vets in that case?Ok I give up. They suck Anyone got any reports to share where the HH did good? Please please prove me wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen11 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Hmm, those positives are hard to find... They do have nice models though,lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddarz Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Hmm, those positives are hard to find... They do have nice models though,lol Well true they are nice upgrade packs, but hardly fitting to the fluff - personally I was hoping for something like the Mor Deythan got, though even they are a bit too 'bling' for their fluff. But hey it's warhammer. After someone described the helmets as 'orky'(due to the gaping jaw styling), it was hard to see past that;) I really like the chest-sheathed daggers though! And the pads are amazing for vets and HQ's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vogon Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 They're really that bad? I was hoping for a nice thematic force with plenty of special Alpha Legion units. I already have my 10 strong Lernaean Terminators but had picked up a pack of HH upgrades a while ago and was just starting to put them together. I thought the the Heavy Bolter with Banestrike and a suspensior web would be a good addition. Cheers Vogon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen11 Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I am not realy impressed with laerns, especially when you see other kind of terminators, and head hunters as already said, are bad...their row is even worse... Lets make al row and center it around one of the worst units in game, on top of that, lets make it bad in itself...whats not to like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashc Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I think the headhunters make good looking Seekers... and that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caillum Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Headhunters do unfortunately suck, as does 'Headhunter Leviathal'. I have 20 modeled as Veterans/Seekers, as they look amazing though! However, 'The Coils of the Hydra' is absolutely awesome and Lernaeans are not bad at all. They don't compare that favourably to Justaerin/Firedrakes/Sekhmet, but they gain WS5 and Stubborn for only 15 points over Legion Terminators with the same equipment. The Harrower also has an extra attack. Focus on close combat and don't swap out their volkite chargers for anything less than conversion beamers (even at AP-, a S6 Blast synergises well at close range with volkite. It also offers a great long-ranged option when you have no units to charge). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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