Commander Pask viable HQ?

[Sir_Isenhar]

As the topic stats I would like to discuss about Commander Pask both positive and negative...

 

Given the buff of vehicles in 7th and the fast that I like Leman russes in general I was interested in making a list with Commander pask

supported by black templars and a Imperial knight.

 

Basically the list with be something like this:

 

Commander pask with 1 or 2 escort tanks

2 Vet squads with meltas/plasma in chimera or taurox  ( undecided )

Hydra

 

Imperial Knight

Captain with Crusader squad in LRC

Stormtalon

 

Aegis defence line

 

So I was thinking what tanks are the best for this setup?

 

In general you want pask as Primary HQ so he gives prefered enemy for the escort tanks and himself.

I was thinking as Vanquisher escorts? Seem cheap and effective.

 

As for Pask Punisher, vanq or executioner seem like viable choices..

The only problem with punisher is the crap range

And for the Executioner is I am afraid it will die by itself.. As prefered enemy doesnt help for get hots results..

Also I dont want any psykers for reroll to hit as its against the theme..

 

 

What say thee?

I am not very experienced with the Astra militarum!

 

Also doesnt the hydra seem much better than the stalker of the space marines? 72 range with 5 points cheaper same weapon.. offcourse BS 3 but still?

 

 

 

 

 

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, they probably should not let me in this thread to prevent possible fangasms, but *looks around* since no mods are around I'll sneak in :3

Pask is AAAAAWWWEEEESSSOOOOOMMMEEEEE. And that was me holding back.

There are 2 generally accepted ways to run him: Paskunisher and Paskquisher. The rest is simply not worth it.

Paskquisher is Pask in a Vanquisher, no sponsons, hull LC and with either a Vanquisher/LC or LRBT wingman (I would prefer the formed). With his preferred enemy and pseudo-tank hunter and reroll to hit with vanquisher, you can bet your ass that that vehicle is going to get a penetrating hit, somtimes even 2 from Pask alone. He only blows a tank up on a 6, but with LC and Vanq and his wingman he can probably do the 3 obligatory glances to kill a tank. He can also pressure MCs very well in turn 1.

The upside is his long range and the pretty much guaranteed wounds on MC and pen on tanks. The downside is that he lacks flexibility. Against horde armies he is a waste of space.

The second variant and my personal favourite is Pask in a Punisher aka Paskunisher. He can target everything. With 20 bs4 preferred enemy rending shots and pseudo-tank hunter it is not uncommon for him to glance AV14 to death in 1 shooting phase. He shred all types of infantry and does bad things to MCs and anks that get close. If you can get Prescience on him he can serve as a decent AA choice, able to shoot down AV12. I like to rum him with an Plasmacutioner buddy so that he can reroll 1s on gets hot.

His major downside is that his punisher gun only has a 24" range. This he must be in the thick of it and possibly exposed to bad things. But in my experience, he fires at something turn 1 and it only gets better from there.

So here it comes down to your play style. Do you play a SIGAOD which relies on hanging back and shooting the enemy to hell while he approaches? Then the Vanquisher is for you. He can open tanks and has a massive range.

If you play an advancing army (like my mech blitz) then the Punisher will serve you well. He can advance with the rest of your dudes, thus not being alone in the line of fire. Close up he turns stuff into swiss cheese. A fun little tid bit: he is a character, this every 6 to hit is a precision shot. Have fun sniping heavy weapons out of the enemy units

If you'd ask me which one is better, I would kick you in the balls for asking such stupid questions. Everything depends on your list and your style. But if pressed, I'd say Punisher has the edge due to him not being limited to any target type, he shoots everything. If that is a solid tactical assessment or simply blatant favouritism, I can not tell but that is my opinion.

Verdict? Damn bloody good choice, be it mech army or infantry with mech support. The real choice comes down to Vanquisher and Punisher (yaay). As I said, the others are simply the worth the price hike compared to the benefits that Pask brings to them.

*prepares for march10k to storm in a brag about the Vanquisher*

[Fibonacci]

 .. As prefered enemy doesnt help for get hots results..

 

See Gets Hot and Re-rolls

[Frater Cornelius]

.. As prefered enemy doesnt help for get hots results..

See Gets Hot and Re-rolls

Or, to save you the brain work, let me explain: anything that allows to reroll to hit will allow you to reroll the gets hot dice, this also counts for weapons that do not roll to hit p.164 BRB, which includes blasts because they do not roll to hit p.158 BRB.

This means that twin-linked and prescience will allow you to reroll the dice while preferred enemy allows you to reroll a 1, which is exactly what you want to reroll. RAW and mostly agreed to be RAI but it is one of the more sketchy parts because it does not specifically mention preferred enemy, thus some players will try to argue against it. In that case, take the next convenient big gun and shove it up his a..rmy

[march10k]

 

 

*prepares for march10k to storm in a brag about the Vanquisher*

 

 

you rang?  LOL...no, Immersturm has the right of it.  Punisher Pask has mathhammer on his side, he is statistically more likely to destroy an enemy tank than Pasquisher is, and he's more versatile in that he's not entirely a waste of space when it comes to killing troops (did I just damn him with faint praise?  LOL), although I haven't seen a list with NO medium-heavy vehicles or MCs or terminators (Two AP2 wounds per turn against terminators?  That's not a waste of Pasks's talents!) in years...

 

I prefer Pasquisher for several reasons:  

 

One, the rule of cool.  He's not just auto-hit with a nasty tank-killing weapon, he's also auto-pen, even against AV14.  I like to point at my target and say "have that removed" before I start rolling dice for Pask's shooting.  

 

Two, range/survivability.  I can bury him in cover in a corner of the table (or, on top of a closed skyshield for 4++ cheese) and be fully effective without thrusting him into the enemy's face, where he might just get himself killed.  

 

Three, Longsrike.  Longstrike sodomizes any IG tank he shoots at, at a rate of one dead russ per turn.  Pasquisher might not kill him outright on the first shot, but he'll damned sure keep him from shooting, and eventually will kill him.  Punisher Pask doesn't have enough range to do that, and Longstrike would almost certainly be able to kill both of Pask's squadron mates (if he takes a second one) AND Pask before he was chased into a corner.  That may not be a big factor in your meta, but there are two tau players in mine, and fielding Longstrike is a no-brainer now that you can have multiple combined arms detachments, eliminating the pressure on heavy support slots.  Now they can have their missilesides AND their railheads, not to mention 4x6 fire warriors and four EMPTY superscoring devilfish.

 

Four, and Immersturm disagrees with me on this point, the difference between the basic version of the vanquisher/punisher and the Pask version.  Pasquisher almost skips past the to-hit and to-pen rolls and just has to worry about the pen table result.  A basic vanquisher struggles to hit the enemy in the first place, making it just about the worst tank you could field.  OTOH, it is true that Punisher Pask is a potent tank hunter, which the basic punisher definitely is not, but that's not really the original assigned role of the punisher.  In the punisher's core mission of killing infantry, Pask provides preferred enemy, rending, and BS4.  All of these are MASSIVE boosts.  However, the statement that the basic version of the tank is not a viable option, which is true of the vanquisher (unless you're taking multiples and providing prescience support), simply fails when applied to the punisher.  With 29 S5 shots (including three heavy bolters, a no-brainer), It doesn't matter that half of them will miss, it's still a very effective troop-killer.  Actually, the sexiness that Pask adds to the punisher is somewhat offset because you end up dumping 1/3 of the anti-infantry shooting to gain three proper antitank weapons in a lascannon and a pair of multimeltas.   Punisher Pask is certainly far superior to the basic punisher, but punishers can punish without him in the commander's hatch.  Vanquishers just plain fail without either Pask, or by being spammed with prescience support (which, to be fair, would also benefit basic punishers, but the point is that basic punishers don't need it!)

 

/edit/ /insert cheek/

 

Quod erat demonstrandum!

[Frater Cornelius]

Nice write-up. As you can see, opinions differ and it ultimately comes to what you expect from your lists. My recommendation is to look at what you need and go from there on in. If all else fails, just try them both. Both have their ups and both have their downsides. It is just sides of the incredibly versatile codex Astra Militarum where just about anything can work when you build your list around it properly

Also Longstrike will not kill a LR a turn. 2s rerollable to hit. That is guaranteed. After that he need 4 to glance 5 and 6 to pen with tank hunter. It is not guaranteed to pen him at all. After that needs 5+ to blow up right away, not including cover saves. Against him you need to force him to jink. He will get a 3+++ but will only fire snap shots next turn. Or you simply say hi with your Hydras. Works fairly well.

[David Ravel]

I tried Pask last week. I was proud I had just finished to paint the Punisher with a commander on it. Gave him 4++ with a psyker. First lance weapon of the game one shotted him. I know tanks are supposed to be stronger, but that's always what I don't like about tanks and running Armoured Battlegroup : that tiny risk is there. If you play for example Yarrick as a commander, that just doesn't happen. 

 

I wasn't even able to shoot with him hehe. I'm gonna try it again. But at the very least, he was a beast in theory. 

[march10k]

I tried Pask last week. I was proud I had just finished to paint the Punisher with a commander on it. Gave him 4++ with a psyker. First lance weapon of the game one shotted him. I know tanks are supposed to be stronger, but that's always what I don't like about tanks and running Armoured Battlegroup : that tiny risk is there. If you play for example Yarrick as a commander, that just doesn't happen.

 

I wasn't even able to shoot with him hehe. I'm gonna try it again. But at the very least, he was a beast in theory.

 

Pask is required to take at least one squadron mate. And when you're shooting at a vehicle squadron, ALL hits are resolved one at a time against the nearest model in the squadron until that model is dead, then move on to the next closest model. The only way what you described can happen is if Pask was the closest model, in which case you made a huge mistake, or if the eldar killed the rest of the squadron first. But I'm betting you didn't know the rules and just let that cheating xenos scum (call in the Deathwatch!) pick which squadron member they were shooting at.

 

Immersturm,

 

You're right about Longstrike, but oh so wrong, lol. No tau player is going to allow Longstrike's target a cover save! Oh, and he is less likely to get a penetrating hit, but once he's there, he's poison. AP1 is nasty. 3+ to get immobilized, weapon destroyed, or explodes! Hydras...need sixes to glance longstrike, that means it takes two hydras to strip one hull point per turn. Unsatisfactory! I want a penetrating hit or a jink to force snap shots, and the only thing that will make him jink is something with a high chance of penetrating. He'll gladly concede a glancing hit if it lets him pen one of your tanks next turn!

[Frater Cornelius]

 

I tried Pask last week. I was proud I had just finished to paint the Punisher with a commander on it. Gave him 4++ with a psyker. First lance weapon of the game one shotted him. I know tanks are supposed to be stronger, but that's always what I don't like about tanks and running Armoured Battlegroup : that tiny risk is there. If you play for example Yarrick as a commander, that just doesn't happen.

 

I wasn't even able to shoot with him hehe. I'm gonna try it again. But at the very least, he was a beast in theory.

Pask is required to take at least one squadron mate. And when you're shooting at a vehicle squadron, ALL hits are resolved one at a time against the nearest model in the squadron until that model is dead, then move on to the next closest model. The only way what you described can happen is if Pask was the closest model, in which case you made a huge mistake, or if the eldar killed the rest of the squadron first. But I'm betting you didn't know the rules and just let that cheating xenos scum (call in the Deathwatch!) pick which squadron member they were shooting at.

 

Immersturm,

 

You're right about Longstrike, but oh so wrong, lol. No tau player is going to allow Longstrike's target a cover save! Oh, and he is less likely to get a penetrating hit, but once he's there, he's poison. AP1 is nasty. 3+ to get immobilized, weapon destroyed, or explodes! Hydras...need sixes to glance longstrike, that means it takes two hydras to strip one hull point per turn. Unsatisfactory! I want a penetrating hit or a jink to force snap shots, and the only thing that will make him jink is something with a high chance of penetrating. He'll gladly concede a glancing hit if it lets him pen one of your tanks next turn!

 

 

Force LS to face the biggest threat (Pask and Hydras), then flank with Taurox to get a shot at the 12 side with TLAC. Besides, in this case it is not about numbers. It is about psychology. He needs to declare of he jinks before I make the hit rolls. With the Tauroxes and Hydras I can muster 14 TLAC shots at front and side. This might make someone jink just because he is intimidated by the amount of shots. And that is all you need, you do not need to kill him, just force the jink so that he is forced to make snap shots next turn. While he can boost his snap shots with marker lights, this will come at a cost. He will not be able to boost other units and might not have enough to ignore cover. And if you have done a good job blasting the sources of marker light, he is bummed.

 

As for Paskunisher vs Paskquisher, there is one reason I would seriously consider Paskquisher though: Looking at my current list and the codex I have found that several specialist units do a better job than few generalist. Paskquisher with a Vanquisher wingman will be around 360 depending on upgrades while Paskunisher is 433 the way I run him. That a few points I could save and by maybe dropping 1-2 Primaris I can fit in a second demolisher and something interesting up top.

Losing the murder and potential AA from the Punisher is a step I do not really want to take though.

[march10k]

LOL...opportunity cost can be a really mean bear to wrestle with.