Wondering about HQs in 7th

[minigun762]

I think a primary and secondary HQ will work fine for armies 1750+, assuming that secondary HQ is cheap.

 

It also helps if your first HQ wasn't a 250 point monster either.

 

Being BT, a Chaplain in a LRC makes for a powerful support character for a modest price. And while there are other ways to get a similar upgrade to the squad, none come with as much awesomeness as a skull faced battle brother.

[GreyCrow]

I think a primary and secondary HQ will work fine for armies 1750+, assuming that secondary HQ is cheap.

 

It also helps if your first HQ wasn't a 250 point monster either.

 

Being BT, a Chaplain in a LRC makes for a powerful support character for a modest price. And while there are other ways to get a similar upgrade to the squad, none come with as much awesomeness as a skull faced battle brother.

 

I've got one melee Captain with Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra, Power Fist that clocks in at 165 points and a Librarian with ML2 that amounts to 90 points, so 255pts for both. That would be for 1750 points for sure, or for 1500 points while I'm waiting for my Stormraven (I want it, I want it, I WANT IT !) :p

 

The thing is, I can choose to go for either a full Scout squad or that Captain. I don't lack bodies that much, but both builds are the same point level :p

[minigun762]

I've got one melee Captain with Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra, Power Fist that clocks in at 165 points

You don't take art armor? Interweb logic is it's mandatory.

[GreyCrow]

 

I've got one melee Captain with Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra, Power Fist that clocks in at 165 points

You don't take art armor? Interweb logic is it's mandatory.

 

 

Any unit that wants to kill my HQ will wield AP2 melee weapons anyways...

[Azash]

 

 

I've got one melee Captain with Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra, Power Fist that clocks in at 165 points

 

You don't take art armor? Interweb logic is it's mandatory.

 

Any unit that wants to kill my HQ will wield AP2 melee weapons anyways...

No they won't. At 15 inches a single squad of fire warriors can zap your HQ. The reason a lot of us take arti armor is to minimize the potential of death by saturation. It also minimizes the number of 4+ invulns you have to take.

 

Its alot easier to make 9 consecutive 2+ saves than it is to make 9 consecutive 4++ invuln saves or 9 consecutive 3+ saves. Since the saves are easier to make it means you put him out front to absorb shots and keep other models on the table. For a practical example a hell turkey fries your assault squad now you can hide your captain in the back and lose 6 of the 10 man squad to keep the captain alive or you take arti armor put the captain up front and make 6 2+ saves of which you should fail one and your entire assault squad actually makes it unscathed.

 

That is why you take artificer armor.

[GreyCrow]

 

 

 

I've got one melee Captain with Jump Pack, Teeth of Terra, Power Fist that clocks in at 165 points

You don't take art armor? Interweb logic is it's mandatory.

 

Any unit that wants to kill my HQ will wield AP2 melee weapons anyways...

No they won't. At 15 inches a single squad of fire warriors can zap your HQ. The reason a lot of us take arti armor is to minimize the potential of death by saturation. It also minimizes the number of 4+ invulns you have to take.

 

Its alot easier to make 9 consecutive 2+ saves than it is to make 9 consecutive 4++ invuln saves or 9 consecutive 3+ saves. Since the saves are easier to make it means you put him out front to absorb shots and keep other models on the table. For a practical example a hell turkey fries your assault squad now you can hide your captain in the back and lose 6 of the 10 man squad to keep the captain alive or you take arti armor put the captain up front and make 6 2+ saves of which you should fail one and your entire assault squad actually makes it unscathed.

 

That is why you take artificer armor.

 

 

Or you stick your HQ with a unit to get ablative wounds :p

[Azash]

At larger 1750+ games I have been using two HQ's. I haven't given up a slay the warlord yet through 6th and 7th edition since running this particular combination and strategy.

 

I run one HQ that is either a captain or a CM depending on the points and this HQ is loaded out purely for combat. I run him on a bike with a supporting bike squad. Mobility combined with ability allows him to get in my opponents face quickly, stay there and then draw a crowd (which is a good thing). Consequently this HQ is never my warlord as you may surmise he tends to go down but he does last usually till the 4th round or later. I also tend to use these guys to go out and track down the biggest threat to my centurions and kill it or at least tie it up.

 

My warlord is usually Tiggy sitting back with some centurions; giving them a 4++ invuln to go with there T5 and 2+ saves. That tends to keep this unit alive and really hard to kill; I rarely lose a centurion. I use the model shuffle trick to keep a two wound model closest to the most immediate threat . Combined with the centurions shooting tends to keep the scariest shooters away from this unit (warp spiders etc etc)

 

It's been a good system so far and since the change from 6th to 7th wasn't earth shattering I was able to adapt it over easily with only a few minor tweaks.

[GreyCrow]

Budget HQs really seem interesting to me now. I planned to try a new Captain fully kitted out with Plasma Pistol, Burning Brand, Artificer Armour and Jump Pack in a Raven Guard list, but I find him very expensive, although I can definitely see the hurt he will bring.

 

Relics are very tempting, but they cost an arm. Switching the Burning Blade with a Power Sword will save 40 points that I can spend on a Drop Pod for a Dreadnought, for example, and allow it to keep up with my army.

 

In addition, is the Relic Blade worth it ?

[minigun762]

My current rule of thumb is Captains get standard gear and masters get relics.

 

This take advantages of both the Captain's cheaper cost and the Master's superior stat line.

 

The 130-150 range is perfect for a solid Captain, though you could dip even lower with just a power weapon.

[GreyCrow]

My current rule of thumb is Captains get standard gear and masters get relics.

 

This take advantages of both the Captain's cheaper cost and the Master's superior stat line.

 

The 130-150 range is perfect for a solid Captain, though you could dip even lower with just a power weapon.

 

The build with the Relic Blade, Artificer Armour, Plasma Pistol & Jump Pack reaches 165 points, so the same as Tigurius.

He's going to go with a 10 man Assault squad with 2 flamers, and a Veteran with Power Fist. Most likely, he'll be in a combat squad with only the Sergeant while the 2 Flamers go on their business.

Do you feel it's too much ?

[minigun762]

I'd personally drop the plasma pistol as you're not getting an extra attack from it anyway.

 

Other option would be to take a power axe over the relic blade so you're packing two AP2 weapons. This pairs up fairly well with the Sarge's power fist.

[Paulochromis]

well, the plasma pistol is an (admittedly single) AP2 attack before the charge (and/or challenge) with a 5/6 chance to hit at 12" range, as opposed to (multiple) attacks after the charge with 2/3 chance to hit.

[Butters]

 

Nothings changed for my captain/cm on a bike w/ burning blade and grav pistol.

 

The really big change is the access to divination for John Q Librarian. Now an epistolary in TA with a SS can prescience (or at least attempt to) your sternguard or any other tactics and abilities. A cheap backfield fire support Libby to give your cents a 4++ save, etc.

 

I expect for non UM CT armies this is especially huge.

As said above it's still Tiggy only I'm afraid, which sucks. On the subject of Tiggy I'm still waiting for an FAQ as to how his abilities interact with 7th, rerolling failed tests being the big one. I've gone large on troops with 3 tactical squads and 2 chimvet squads at 2k, all with dedicated transports. Tiggy doesn't really have anyone to ride with, so I've been taking a TDA captain and a unit of termies as a replacement for him and grav cents, I'll let you know how it works out.

 

When Tiggy rerolls he MUST reroll all the dice used in that instance to cast something.  You cannot add nor subtract dice either.  Also he can den the witch twice I believe be it counts a a psychic test. 

[Captain Idaho]

I'd like to say I've never had a problem with a plasma pistol on independent characters. It's a solid wound when charging into combat, which helps tips odds in your favour if against those foes who might make you struggle.

 

Relic blades are great. Against everything bar Terminators they are deadly weapons.

 

For 165pts you've built a solid centre to an assault squad. Just remember that assault squads aren't amazing and prioritise your targets to be smaller troops choices, weaker troops and support units where possible.

[Azash]

Actually with the character update azrah redth also has access to divination. As far as librarians go he is a really good choice.

[GreyCrow]

I'd like to say I've never had a problem with a plasma pistol on independent characters. It's a solid wound when charging into combat, which helps tips odds in your favour if against those foes who might make you struggle.

 

Relic blades are great. Against everything bar Terminators they are deadly weapons.

 

For 165pts you've built a solid centre to an assault squad. Just remember that assault squads aren't amazing and prioritise your targets to be smaller troops choices, weaker troops and support units where possible.

 

Thanks, I've had no experience with Relic Blades so far. I like the idea that I'll wound any infantry on a 2+ (Marines too) and still benefit from the I5. Wounding on 4+ with a Power sword just doesn't cut it, I'm not that lucky :D

 

I've ran somes simulations with an Assault combat squad with the power fist sergeant and that captain using RG CT against Terminators, and overall, the volume of attacks and the plasma pistol and Power Fist allow to take them down after a few turns of combat. Overall, it's 3 Terminators down on average per turn.

In terms of damage potential, the Assault squads aren't awesome, except when they get the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics. Any free automatic hits with Hammer of Wrath all the time, rerolling to wound are better than regular attacks :)

[Captain Idaho]

Chapter Tactics helps big time! It's one of the reasons Tactical squads in Ultramarines armies can be quite deadly.

[GreyCrow]

Very true

Has anyone played a Captain with both Lightning Claws and Power Fist ? It looks pretty brutal with the ability to take on whatever comes his way and it's relatively points effective. With a Jump Pack and Artificer armour, it reaches 165 points and it sounds quite tempting ! It sounds like it can solo pretty well after a few turns of protection from another squad. Like the Batman of 40k !

I've experimented with the ToT+Power Fist version which is effective, but the LC/PF is slightly different (namely shred on the LC) and about 20 points cheaper

[Captain Idaho]

I'm thinking you don't need the Teeth of Terra if you have a power fist and the lightning claw is adequate. Piling on more points is fairly unneeded.

[GreyCrow]

I have trouble comparing the LC with the extra attack due to the Power Fist to the Relic Blade with its Two Handed rule in combat against infantry. I've thrown some dices for a while and even though the mathematical averages seem to favor the LC, on the die, the RB has been more consistent with mostly 3 wounds on T4, while the LC seems to roll mostly 2s, with the possibility of rolling 5 wounds.

[minigun762]

I have trouble comparing the LC with the extra attack due to the Power Fist to the Relic Blade with its Two Handed rule in combat against infantry. I've thrown some dices for a while and even though the mathematical averages seem to favor the LC, on the die, the RB has been more consistent with mostly 3 wounds on T4, while the LC seems to roll mostly 2s, with the possibility of rolling 5 wounds.

I've run the numbers of 4A lightning claw vs 3A relic blade and the claw wins out against T3&4, ties at T5 and loses at T6. However with the option for a power fist at T6, the fist and claw combo wins out.

[Captain Idaho]

The Relic blade is a versatile weapon you add to a model with a shooting attack (Primarch's Wrath) or Storm Shield. Pure damage dealing relies on more focused weapons.

[minigun762]

The Relic blade is a versatile weapon you add to a model with a shooting attack (Primarch's Wrath) or Storm Shield. Pure damage dealing relies on more focused weapons.

 

Exactly, FistyClaw is going to be the superior offensive loadout for close combat but you've given up shooting and you're running a 4++ at best (not that that's bad at)

 

If someone wanted a true "all purpose" Captain, I think you'd do well with a combi-melta and relic blade combo. Takes advantage of your natural BS5 and gives you a solid close combat weapon. 

[Dam13n]

I've been playing some small 400pt games recently.  A White Scars Captain with Relic Blade on a Bike being the character I'm using (we're not allowed 2+ saves, so AP3 is fine).  T5 and a 3+/4++ is survivable enough, especially backed up by a 5 man bike squadron.

 

I'm not so fussed by the 3++ with that Character.  If I'm worried about enemy fire, I'll just jink for a 3+ cover thanks to the Chapter Trait.

 

I tend to go Personal on the Warlord Traits.  A 1/3 chance of either Feel no Pain or It Will Not Die to help him stay alive.  Even if I get something else, they're still useful.

 

Last game he got Feel No Pain, which he never needed!

 

My 400pts is (unbound):

- WS Captain on Bike with Relic Blade

- 5 WS Bikes with 2 Meltaguns

- Allied Furioso with Blood Talons and Heavy Flamer

 

Last game it wiped out:

- Spiritseer with relic helm (Telepathy)

- 5 Rangers

- 5 Dire Avengers

- 5 Wraithguard

For the loss of 2 bikes.  The Captain butchered 4 Rangers and 4 Wraithguard over the course of the game.

 

Going up in points (to 600), he'll probably switch to a Power Fist and Artificer Armour.  I'll add another unit of Bikes with 2x Plasma and maybe squeeze in a couple of Combi-weapons if I have the points.

 

I'm definitely a fan of the budget HQ and not a fan of Deathstars.

[*Furyou Miko]

For my Marines (Mantis Warrior CT), I generally run a Librarian (Divination, Force Axe + Plasma Pistol).

 

My Sisters are usually led by a Canoness with a Power Maul or Axe, an Inferno Pistol, Rosarius, and the Mantle of Ophelia. In smaller games, she gets a chainsword instead of the power weapon.

 

Chaos... my generics are still, usually, a Warpsmith with Scrolls of Magnus, Aura and MoT, although she's now joined by a Balestar Sorceress or a Summoning Daemon Prince of Tzeentch.