Fixing Grey Knights for 7th Edition

[Valerian]

We've done this exercise a couple times in the past, but the advent of 7th Edition has changed how Grey Knights work in some fairly substantial ways.  So, I think it's worth going through again, just to think through our recommended adjustments in support of a future codex for 7th Edition. 

 

Aim/Purpose:

 

The purpose of this exercise is to come up with solutions to inherent problems/issues with various units in the current 5e Grey Knights codex as a community of dedicated Grey Knights players.  I intend to consolidate whatever we come up with and submit to the GW Design Studio, for the consideration of whatever designer has been assigned the responsibility to update our codex.  Assuming a release of no earlier than March 2015, there exists a possibility that anything we provide might be able to, in some small way, affect the final product.  Failing that, these sorts of ventures are often fun for hobbiests to go through, and I enjoy getting your perspectives on these matters.

 

 

Underlying Assumptions:

 

The Grey Knights will get a revised codex for 7th Edition.

 

Units that were included in the digital Codex Inquisition will not be included/reproduced in our next codex version.

 

Grey Knights units will not get unique Psychic powers, nor a new unique Psychic power table, but will maintain current design tenets based on the 7e Amendments/Errata (i.e. heavy focus on the Sanctic Daemonology table).

 

 

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Given the above, it seems to me that many of the Grey Knights units that were suboptimal in 5e and 6e remain poor choices in 7e.  Furthermore, some units may be worse off now than they were prior to the release of the new core rules.  My list for units that need some adjustment or refinement to improve internal balance follows:

 

• Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights.
• Brother-Captain Arvann Stern
• Castellan Garran Crowe
• Grey Knight Brother-Captain
• Brotherhood Champion
• Techmarine
• Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)
• The Assassins
• Strike Squad
• Purgation Squad

 

In addition to any suggestions that you may have to address the above units, please also feel free to address any adjustments to wargear, weapons, or other equipment that would be warranted (e.g. Psilencers).

 

Valerian

 

[SCOTT_FRANCIS]

I am going to follow this thread, I think it will help me understand and build my new GK force.

 

So far I am set on a Psifleman and a 10 man Interceptor squad kitted with PsiCannons and a mixture of Hammers and Halberds.

 

But as I do not yet play GK, i can not comment on what is deemed as "broken".

[AnImA8]

I'm not normally a fan of "wish-list" posts, but since you plan on proactively sending this list to the dev team, I'll join in.

Our main problem is that we are put on a clock that is too fast: we don't have the numbers (which is fine, and shouldn't change), our opponents have gotten significantly "killier" (what with all the ap2-3 thats come out), and we have remained fairly unkilly except in assault.

Two solutions that I see to this: give our Terminators some kind of improvement to invulnerable saves. Stormshields are an options. Make them only accessible with Daemon Hammers, so there's no 2++ from sword/shield. -OR- give us a unique shield: 4++ that goes on the Stormbolter arm but doesn't replace it. Is improvable by the swords.

The other option is to make us killier. Making psybolt ammunition give rending would be unimaginative, but would be exactly what we need.

As for the particulars of characters and units:

Grey Knight characters, in general, need to be better. This could easily be fixed by actually giving Mordrak and Crowe Independent Character. It makes little to no sense that marines who go through the most rigorous and intense training/mind-wiping, in order to fight the most horrifying creatures, would be even remotely afraid of each other.

Grand Masters and Brother-Captains could be distinguished further from each other. Right now Bro-Captains are just cheaper GM's, but their "cheapness" isn't so great as to not make the GM a no-brainer.

Overall though, I would like to see Grey Knights be the response to Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons. Something that promotes challenges would be cool, and being able to tool our characters (even Justicars) for these challenges would be interesting. The idea is just to get us to where our characters were meant to step up to the plate against the forces of chaos.

 

The problem with Paladins is a little beyond repair in my mind. Adjustments to Toughness would just make them explicitly better "clones" of their DA counter-parts and I'd rather see them distinguished and made more interesting. The only thing I can think of is making them more full psykers, with access to disciplines. A seer-council type squad could be interesting. Just musing though.

Strikes, lost a lot of their value to me when they lost Warpquake. I think the changes to PsyAmmo I suggested would help. Aside from that, they could be 18 points. :/

 

Purgation Squads mainly, need to have their weapon points adjusted, and need to not be in such a heavily impacted slot. Dreadnoughts could be elites. Land Raiders could be made dedicated transports for our Knights. That's not so unreasonable given other marine codices. From there Purgators and Dreadknights compete healthily with each other and people are free to take the other options elsewhere.

[Deamon Wolf]

IMO AnIam A8 there are a couple of things that you have put up that GW and 7th Ed have sorted out , this idea the Terminators get a 4++ save well if you take a Lib or a lvl 2 BC or GM then you have a reasonable chance of rolling up the +1 Invulnrable save which I personally think is one of the best power we have got for freemans with this new edition

I do agree that the BC and GM need to have changes , I personally believe that If C-SM give their GM 4A and 4W and a 1 use Orbital Bombardment then that should also be a standard thing for C-GK GM , I also think that if we once again look at C-SM for our BC then Terminator Armour ( Although really really cool ) should not be as standerd ok drop the points for the guy but then we can have a few more HQ options on him like teleport packs or tank commander or a Dread knight suit,

Brother hood Champions well there is nothing they can do as IMO they were a useless HQ type ( a 1W HQ come on who would field that ) but also since he lost the I kill u from my grave Psykik power well he is now less than useless, so there needs to be a serious rethink for him

for maybe 25 points give him a second wound, access to a second mastery lvl for say the same points as a Libby and then i think he would actually be uaseable,

Stike Squads have never been my cup of tea but with the new edition I have had another look at them and now I think they are worth their points no changes required , same for Interceptors their are cool as they are, and as Warp Quake was cool but not the be all and end all of these units, especially now since they add to our power dice pool

Purifyers marginal nerf but the power being nova well that means we can shoot as many units that are about to charge us next turn , also note that this power can still be used when in combat

Purgation Squads they recieved a major nerf in the 5th ed Dex and especially since you can do their job better wih Purifyers then why would you take Purgation squads, but ar far as I can see heavy weapon squads are slowly dying a death with 6th and 7th ed

maybe give them access to the psy missials that the Raven has , and give them the Persision shot rule that the scouts get that would actually make me use them , apart from that they are ok

Psylancers lets just press the delete button

Psy bolts , trust me I play against BA , Orks , Necrons, Eldar and Nids and they all hate my Psybolts

what we dont want is an auto I win add on to a unit , Psy bolts are a very nice addetion to my squads that soften up targets before they get decimated in combat, they dont need rending although vs psykers maybe cause pinning

Paladins , yest i agree that they should like purifyers gain access to a second good power ( maybe the +1 Invun save ) but I have always found that my Paladins kick Xneos ass with out too much trouble but the loss of Holocaust is rather annoying

the Apotacary is way over priced understandable for a unit of 2W models tho maybe take it to 35 points like C-DA,

The Banner well that nerf annoys me but i understand why GW have taken the auto activation away , as most other banners have 2 buffs maybe we can have fearless or reroll failed moral check for the loss of the auto activation

last thing for Paladins , maybe they should gain heroic intervention like Vanguard vets as they are ment to be the body guards of the GM and BC.

the only other things I can think of is we lack any real heavy hitting anti tank when we loose the Vindicar Assassin so I hate the Idea of us become more Codex SM like but maybe access to more anti tank tanks would be an idea

now for some wish listing items

a few more named charictars and maybe even a named HQ deadnaught or dreadknight , as we will loose 3 named and 3 non named charectars,

also Forge world Please Please Please make the first 8 Grand Masters and write a nice Imp Armour book for them i mean Varaks book 3 was cool but nothing new for us ( would be nice )

so some slight improvements for the loss of 6 HQ's 5 Eliets and 1 Deadicated transport

now lets come up with some ideas to fill theose 12 gaps

[Shadrach03]

This is my first time posting here but this thread seemed to have a lot of interesting ideas in it and I couldn't help but to toss a few out myself.

 

For Justicars, Knights of the Flame etc.- what about an upgrade to allow them to roll and additional power from any discipline.  This would not add a mastery level so no additional warp dice and if you lose the model your unit loses the power.

 

Purgation Squad-add Prescience to replace astral aim. if they are suppose to shoot with their short range limitation at lest let them hit stuff reliably without the need for another psyker babysitting them.

 

Interceptors-I know they weren't on the list but they compete with storm ravens which seem far more valuable and in a book that we could lose access to inquisition units they would likely compete with some new models.  Give them shrouding if they are suppose to operate on their own in the far reaches of the field.

 

Paladins-The heroic intervention idea was a pretty nice touch.  The apothecary is way expensive of course.  The inferno power from pyromancy could replace holocaust.  Lastly for every 3 paladins in a unit let 1 buy a power in the same fashion as justicars.  It may be another thing to keep track of but could make them stand out and take on unique rolls.

 

Brother Captain-allow him to buy a mastery level, start him in artificer armor and buy a teleporter pack so at least 1 man can escort interceptors.

 

Brother Champion-2 wounds, how could someone be the best fighter and train all the recruits with 1 wound.  I feel like he needs some sort of psychic power to make up for what he lost but at this time I couldn't think of anything that fit well.  Maybe precognition would allow him to use a different stance while gaining the benefit of rerolled saves and reroll hits in later turns.  Lastly, this may seem like a long shot, Dreadknight armor upgrade cuz why wouldn't you put the best fighter in a brotherhood in the most badass suit of armor you can field.  I'm sure some changes will get made to balance out the Greatsword for the DK but make the hammer AP1 when carried by the DK so it at least has something meaningful over the fists.

 

Named characters in general-I think some of these will be sorted out by giving them unique wargear or weapons but shouldn't they at least be swinging master crafted weapons and firing psybolts?  Also for the army made up completely of psykers where is our named librarian?  I haven't seen many named in fluff but one that stood out was Hyperion.  If you can stand up to the Angron and live that should deserve a place on our battlefields.  Give him a unique power ala Ezekiel that destroys enemy special weapons or wargear like he did to Angrons sword.

 

I would really like to hear what kind of units everyone thinks that they could use to fill in the gaps in the list that would be created by the loss of inquisition forces if that comes to pass, and since GW is a company that sells models I imagine that taking away inquisition and making us purely GK would be a good reason to introduce new stuff.

[Gentlemanloser]

I can't see us keep the Assassins, if we lose the rest of the Inquisitorial Units.

I'll never understand why they weren't just C&Ped into C:I anyway... Maybe a C:Assassins is comng out.

• Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights.

Mordrak is a *great* idea. But his implementation sucks. Hard.

First, give him IC status. And still have the Spwaning of new Ghost Knights when he takes wounds. Just have them add to whatever unit he's attached to, like things like Fenrisian Wolves.

Secondly, *don't* have any Ghost Kngihts disappear when he dies. If you must, have a token placed where Mordrak dies, and restrict the Ghost Knights form moving 2/3" away from that point. As they stand over the fallen body (he might just be knocked out) to protect him until danger passes.

• Brother-Captain Arvann Stern

He's always been a sub par choice. Unquie Psychic Power (which he's now lost) didn't help. To be honest, not sure how to improve him.

• Castellan Garran Crowe

IC status. Remove the stupidness of buffing the enemy when they assult you. And give him a *proper* weapon. No justification for him swiging his sword as nothing more than a pointy stick, when he has access to Nemesis Weapons.

Have him strap the Daemonsword to his back, al la Cypher. Or even have him draw power from it. His super purity allows him to steal power from it without becoming corrupted.

• Grey Knight Brother-Captain

Choice for AA and a PT. Cheaper, with a single unit TGS.

• Brotherhood Champion

Lo,S! on a 2+. Storm Shield. OPtion for a PT.

• Techmarine

Cheaper. Servitors. Option for a PT.

• Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)

Apothecary upgrade needs to be Cheaper. Paladin need to go to T5.

• The Assassins

Vindicare is ok, all the others need *serious* work. I don't think we'll keep them in our Codex though.

• Strike Squad

The loss of Warp Quake hurts them. But they're still a solid choice. Strikes lose Deep Strike (Interceptors keep Deep Strike) but gain scout and/or Infiltrate. If you read thier original design, Strikes are supposed to get to area first, before the rest of the army.

The Strike Justicar can take a Locator Beacon.

• Purgation Squad

Loss of Astral Aim is no biggie. They need to go to BS5 and/or AA armour. Or an option to upgrade back to TDA. There is *no* reason for them to be in PA... Justicar loses the Teleport Homer.

In addition to any suggestions that you may have to address the above units, please also feel free to address any adjustments to wargear, weapons, or other equipment that would be warranted (e.g. Psilencers).

Psilencers ignore Invulnerable saves.

Units get the option to swap Hammerhand/Banishment for a roll on one of the Disciplines.

Falchions go to +2A.

Storm Shields.

And Eviscerators! Let our TDA units take Eviscerators (over Chainfists).

We need some form of Teleport Attack. Some inbuilt form of non scatter/first turn drop, that doesn't rely on the easily removed Servo Skulls.

[Captain Coolpants]

I am a firm believer that we need more characters and named characters. Ranging from named grand masters to named upgrade justicars. Adds way more flavour and makes it more fluffy. Also gives us far better options, because be real guys, practically all grey knights options are the same. So if we had justicar upgrade characters that could drastically effect how strike squad/Terminator/interceptor squads work and feel.

I also believe that dreadnoughts should gain access to heavy psycannons! I mean why not? Forgeword has already modeled a psycannon upgrade kit for dreadnoughts, which nobody buys because you're better off keeping the assault cannon and giving it psybolt ammo. It's not like they can't hold a heavy psycannon, a dreadknight and a dreadnought have same strength and already carry the same force fists, so why not give them the option for say 30 points?

 

But my main request is more characters. A named dreadknight would be amazing! Takes a skilled warrior to pilot a dreadknight. So why can't a grand master or brother captain?

 

Also a little complaint about these.... They are designed to kill big greater daemons and whatnot.. BUT. They do the job poorly. They attack last, and hit the big daemons on a 6 and tend do die before they even get a chance to even swing a hit at said big daemons. A strike squad with psyk out grenades do a better job at killing bigger daemons that a dreadknight. Also a daemon prince can upgrade to be a flier for 40 points, which gives it hard to hit, vector strike and huge movements... But for a massive 75 points dreadknights only become jump. So the very thing they are made to kill is far better than them. Makes no sense fluff wise.. Reduce the points for the teleporter to 40.

 

But yeah.... Named interceptor justicars(maybe makes them an objective secured?)

 

Named strike squad characters with an extra wound or powers/abilities.

 

Make crowe a little less poo, independent character and makemake it so not everyone gets an auto 'I kill you now' against him.

 

Most certainly make the brotherhood champions worth taking! Extra wound would be fine.

 

And maybe... Just maybe. Allow standard characters to upgrade to have dreadknight armour?

 

And purgation squads need cheaper weapons to even make them viable as purifiers do their job better.

 

And Codex only powers!

 

(^o^)

[Captain Coolpants]

Think we also need chapter weapons and artifacts

and to make a psylencer strength 6.

 

Also callidux assassins need tweaking (fully aware that assassins will not be in the new codex) But their polymorphine needs to make more sense. They blast the enemy and appear next to the enemy unit using deepstrike rules (without scatter). This means that they cannot assault attack because they came from reserve. Which makes them pointless! And makes no sense because technically, they were on the board the whole time disguised as part of the unit. All they need it to be able to assault the same turn before they get shot to bits by the enemies whole army.

 

Maybe now that I think of it. Justicars /knights of flame could have increased WS?

[Quozzo]

Quoting seems to be messed up...

 

 

"Psylancers lets just press the delete button" - Daemon Wolf

That's not right. You don't delete something because its bad, you improve it. No-one suggesting that we delete the GK codex, but improve it.

 

 

"I can't see us keep the Assassins, if we lose the rest of the Inquisitorial Units.

 

I'll never understand why they weren't just C&Ped into C:I anyway...  Maybe a C:Assassins is comng out." - Genltemanloser

I had a giggle, until I realized they brought out a codex for one C:SM unit.

 

---

 

Crowe

Crowe was great in close combat, but he couldn't get there. With no IC status to join units for ablative wounds or to hitch a ride in a transport then he remained at the backfield, protecting himself and something no-one really wanted to assault in the first place. Giving him IC status would solve all that. Even without a NFW or his Heroic Sacrifice rule, now allowing him to join a unit like his counterpart, the BHC, would make him a decent choice.

 

Mordrak

Allowing Mordrak to join a unit and allow said unit to deepstrike on the first turn might have been OP at the end of 5th edition. With half of the DA now doing it and most of our squads able to deepstrike anyway, giving him IC status doesn't sound as OP as it once did.

 

Ghost Knights

With malefic powers generating new units and some even able to chose the upgrades then it should also be an option for our own ethereal models. Only melee weapons though. A full unit of terminator psycannons would be cool.

 

Draigo

I think his usefulness in 7th is going to increase. With his attacks counting as strength 10 against daemons or psykers he could potentially send Tigurius back to macragge with a single slap, and all without expending a single warp charge to be denied. Although his unique psychic ability is no more, so 250 points should do it.

 

Stern

I have never used Stern before. Shows how good he is. Currently he's lost Zone of Banishment and Psychic Communion, so for 5 points more you can take a GKGM with TGS and PML2 to match Sterns. It's a no brainier. His former Zone of Banishment ability could perhaps now be a melee stance, similar to one of the BHC, and has the same affect with no Ld check required but I don't want to step on the BHC in combat. Also gains TGT (see B-C below)

 

Grand Masters

Grey Knight Grand Masters are really just options that should have been available to the captain, but were given their own entry to fulfill the fluff. To that end there needs to be some distinction between the two and as GKGM is the better choice then I've adopted the don't fix what ain't broke strategy for him.

 

Brother-Captain

Starts in artificer armour with the option to upgrade to either a personal teleporter or terminator armour. The Grand Tactic: Any one unit can gain one of the following rules for a turn, but during that turn, no other unit can benefit from TGT. The unit gains either Fear, Adamantium Will, Counter Attack, Feel No Pain or Split Fire. I'm also thinking that once a rule is used it can no longer be selected at all but since some can be used in either players turn then its possible to run out of rules at the beginning of turn 3.

 

Brotherhood-Champion

One can be taken for every Brother-Captain selected (maybe any HQ) which does not use up a slot on the FOC, whatever that is. Or: Can take 0-3 in any detachment.

Look out Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any brotherhood champion in the unit, regardless of whether or not he is the nearest model to the character and his glorious intervention auto passes. Also up the number of wounds to 2 (or 3?). No adjustment to the price necessary as his trademark ability is no more but give him an optional personal teleporter to keep up with the brother-captain. Activating the anointed blade with the Force power also counts as rending.

 

Librarian (seems to be omitted from Val's list)

The GK Librarian was the best psyker in the game imo. Able to pay in order to take extra psychic powers was so useful. Instead he could choose all his powers from the santic table (imagine that, getting a power you want, it would be like 6th ed or something) or roll for them on any discipline we have access to.

 

Paladins

Paladins are the guardians of the Grand Master, so if anything should be given the sanctuary power but a roll specifically on the santic table to gain an extra power that doesn't increase their PML would be somewhat of a compromise. They could even have some unique weaponry that when activated with "Force" could impart some special rules, like the DA deathwing knight but with our own unique twist, instead of a once only, they need to be activated. Would also make sense considering their weapons are no longer automatically activated due to the bro' banner being nerfed.

 

Interceptors/Strike Squads

While they no longer have warp quake, they do have hammerhand v2.0 but as its more difficult to actually activate so a small points reduction to compensate should be in order. Interceptors, as awesome as they would be with 2A, would be too good and would probably outmatch purifiers due to their teleporters.

 

Purgation Squads

For a heavy weapons team they don't actually use the heavy weapons. Give one in 5 access to the Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon and Heavy Incinerator. As they're all heavy weapons and the purgators are in power armour then it wont tread on the Dreadknights "go get em" strategy. They could be modeled like an over the shoulder heavy platform, similar to cyclone missile launchers but more akin to a techmarines servo harness. I think I may have thought about it too much. They could also be given terminator armour which might just allow them to compete with the LotD. The heavier weapons could act as ordinance to prevent abuse and encourage the use of the lighter weapons to benefit from relentless when in TDA. Could also allow 4 in every 5 access to the psycannon and friends, instead of just 4 regardless of squad size so they have something going for them over the purifiers when taking the minimal options (of no TDA or Heavy-er weapons)

 

Dreadknight

Needs psyk-out grenades, or equivalent. The daemon would then be at initiative one, allowing a possible hit with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer (if taken) which would keep his attacks at initiative step one. Reduce the cost of the Nemesis Daemon Hammer for Nemesis Dreadknights. Must think of units without the Nemesis name in front of it.

 

Nemesis Venerable Dreadnought

Make them PML2 like the Blood Angels librarians dreadnought. Could even have them only roll on the santic table as to not copy the BA's strait up, but our dread's weapons are primarily shooty based so there's no real similarity.

 

Brotherhood Banner

Can no longer auto activate force weapons so what if it could also confer the Reinforced Aegis rule to the squad, instead of Aegis.

 

Psilencer

Increasing them to strength 5 will keep the same effectiveness against masses of low toughness hordes while also being competitive against medium toughness models too. The psycannon will still beat the psilencer with those of a higher toughness (5 or more) in inflicting more wounds and beats it outright against SEq (scout equivalent if there is such a thing). Could also cause pinning but only if the Psilencer (and other pinning shots) was fired at the unit, so the enemy wont know where the shots came from, thus causeing pinning.

 

Psyflame ammunition

Currently only available in vehicles. Change it! That may just make incinerators a viable choice in squads.

 

Incinerators

Something I think every template weapon should have, not just ours, is a small Torrent (3") rule. Was thinking 6" originally, in fact 6" for assault weapons and 3" for hand flamers would do nicely. Currently there is not much point taking them on purgations squads, or anything other than purifiers who can get close and live to tell the tale, but only to their brothers because if the IG heard about it then they would have to kill them.

 

 

This is just a brief overview of what could fix our codex. I would love some additional units and extra gubbins like psychotroke grenades and psybolts. As always some C&C is appreciated.

[Gentlemanloser]

I had a giggle, until I realized they brought out a codex for one C:SM unit.

Codex: Legion of the CashgrabDamned FTW!

Brotherhood-Champion

One can be taken for every Brother-Captain selected (maybe any HQ) which does not use up a slot on the FOC, whatever that is. Or: Can take 0-3 in any detachment.

Look out Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any brotherhood champion in the unit, regardless of whether or not he is the nearest model to the character and his glorious intervention auto passes. Also up the number of wounds to 2 (or 3?). No adjustment to the price necessary as his trademark ability is no more but give him an optional personal teleporter to keep up with the brother-captain. Activating the anointed blade with the Force power also counts as rending.

Like!

Get into CC, drop into the reroll save Stance, and LoS! any wounds that hit the Character.

Very fluffy.

I like the special activation on Force idea.

Take that further and adjust all out existing Nemesis Weapons.

They are 'normal' Force Weapons of thier type, but when activated;

Sword give +1 Invulnerable save (or 6 if you don't have one) for the *entire* turn.

Halberd (should be Force Axe...) lose unwiledy and gain +1I.

Hammers (Work like Mauls) when activated work like Thunder hammers.

Falcions give +1A. When activated give an extra +1A.

And Annointed Blades give Rending and reroll when activated.

Something like that.

[Quozzo]

I had a giggle, until I realized they brought out a codex for one C:SM unit.

Codex: Legion of the CashgrabDamned FTW!

Exactly. Instead of Ordo Malleus and Ordo Hereticus they could have Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Inquisition, Officio Assasinorum and, ur oh they already have a Militarum Tempestos (aka stormtroopers)

I like the special activation on Force idea.

Take that further and adjust all out existing Nemesis Weapons.

They are 'normal' Force Weapons of thier type, but when activated;

Sword give +1 Invulnerable save (or 6 if you don't have one) for the *entire* turn.

Halberd (should be Force Axe...) lose unwiledy and gain +1I.

Hammers (Work like Mauls) when activated work like Thunder hammers.

Falcions give +1A. When activated give an extra +1A.

And Annointed Blades give Rending and reroll when activated.

As they're always on anyway it would be a sort of nerf, albeit fluffy. I wanted something extra as there is no real reason to use "Force" as most models only have 1W anyway. I suppose ID would negate FNP but that's about it.

[edit] Actually, rereading what you have sounds like fun

[Sothalor]

One idea I've got for the Brotherhood Banner is something like it generates an extra warp charge that may only be used by the unit with the banner, for the sole purpose of activating the Force power.

 

Or maybe it lets a unit reroll psychic tests to activate the Force power.

 

I always liked the idea of it providing a boost to NFWs, and was sad to see the FAQ on it.

[thraxdown]

I love these threads! I've only a few ideas.

 

Mordrak I love him as he is, but I've always thought the ghost knights should guard mordraks resting place when he's slain. If they move more than 3" away from his marker they are removed. So if a pile in move takes them too far away, they have to go. They fail leadership and fall back, they disappear.

 

An idea I've been kicking around is the invulnerable rending. Maybe this replaces the old daemonbane rule or something, but on a to wound roll of a 6 in close combat the attack bypasses the invulnerable save.

 

Paladins can only be taken in units of three. Two have Access to a different special weapon. If they are joined by an ic, they must also be joined by a grandmaster. They are grandmaster bodyguards after all.

 

The dreadknights sword gives initiative 10 but at strength 6 (with access to hammerhand), the hammer gives the reroll to everything and remains a special ialist weapon. Slight teleporter cost decrease is warranted I feel.

 

I feel my ideas may be too overpowered. Its hard not to want the best for your army though

[Dread]

Land raiders and variants become dedicated transports, this is what I want. I like most of the suggestions everyone has posted also. Dread Knights need a points decrease or should be given the jump rule, period. As for the rest, I play a strict GK army and will field Valaria every so often but she is the only ]I[ .

[Gentlemanloser]

:) I gave them a little buff becuase of the activation thing.

 

Like the 6+ from sword effecting Strikes and lasting the whole round.  Halberds being AP2, but getting fast when activated.

 

That sort of stuff. ;)

[Quozzo]

I gave them a little buff becuase of the activation thing.

Like the 6+ from sword effecting Strikes and lasting the whole round. Halberds being AP2, but getting fast when activated.

That sort of stuff.

Yes it's a great idea. Activating them would change how they operate. You might charge in expecting to get +1I but it fails. I was thinking something like this only for the paladins so they would be a match for deathwing knights as the paladins no longer have holocaust.

[boreas]

I think an easy way to help Mordrak is to allow to player to automatically pass LoS! rolls with him and for any and all wounds, but wounds have to be transferred to a Ghost knight. This way, the player can "gamble" a wound on Mordrak to spawn a new Knight but he can also prevent him from dying (and the Ghost from disappearing).

[Exile Noctis]

Wouldn't mind AA coming back on Purgation squads at least;

 

Maybe have Astral Aim ability as an option but forces an Initiative test or nothing happens.

[boreas]

Well, maybe giving warp quake back, but to the purgation squads would help make them more interesting

[Adeptus]

I think, in the change from 5th to 6th, the biggest thing that impacted my play style was the loss of the ability to keep my entire army in reserve. Back then you could keep your entire force in reserve, forcing your opponent to deploy cautiously and wasting a turn or two of his shooting before deepstriking right into his grill with the aid of your cunningly placed Servo Skulls. This was pretty necessary, IMO, since despite the robust nature of our troops they really struggle if you have to march them across the table. You can either place them in very expensive Landraiders (which chew up a Heavy slot) or very fragile Rhinos.

 

I think buying a unit upgrade (call it Alpha Strike or something else thematic) that allows your unit to deepstrike on turn one, or even during deployment, for a certain number of units (even just for strike squads and terminators) would restore some of that parity. It wouldn't even be as good as Drop Pods, and we arguably need a Drop Pod analogue much more than C:SM does. Another option would be to allow certain units to charge after Deepstriking. Maybe make it dependent on passing a LD test, or limit it to units that purchase some upgrade (Banners maybe?) or units led by certain characters? Could be a good use for Brotherhood Champions.

 

The final wash is that Grey Knights used to be able to get into combat without crossing the table, and I think they need some of that utility back.

 

Beyond that, Paladins used to rock and now they suck. They used to get a lot of mileage out of their two wounds, firstly because they all had unique wargear and you could allocate wounds, secondly because they were characters and you could allocate wounds on a 4+. Now they just die like flies. Options off the top of my head:

 

Toughness 5. Probably overpowered. This would make them harder to wound with small-arms and mean they can't be ID'd by any S8 stuff. They'd be solid gold rockstars with T5.

 

Sanctuary as a psychic power. This would be pretty reasonable, as they'd still need to manifest the power and it would only give them a 4++ save (3++ in combat for Swords).

 

Cheap or free Apothecary. 5+ FNP isn't that great, certainly not when I have to pay 70+ points for it, AND lose a weapon.

 

A points reduction. Keep them as they are, but maybe charge 45 or 50 points per model.

 

Those are probably my two biggest griefs at the moment. I have others, like the lack of ranged firepower (maybe allow Purgation squads to take traditional heavy weapons like Plasma, Lascannons, etc?) the uselessness of the Brotherhood Champion, and the very heavy competition for points in the Heavy Support slot. I think I'd actually like to see Purifiers restricted to two psycannons instead of four. Having four on a unit like that makes Purgation squads completely redundant.

 

But addressing our inability to get across the table, and the way that Paladins suck, would make me a much happier Knight :)

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

I think buying a unit upgrade (call it Alpha Strike or something else thematic) that allows your unit to deepstrike on turn one, or even during deployment, for a certain number of units (even just for strike squads and terminators) would restore some of that parity. It wouldn't even be as good as Drop Pods, and we arguably need a Drop Pod analogue much more than C:SM does. Another option would be to allow certain units to charge after Deepstriking. Maybe make it dependent on passing a LD test, or limit it to units that purchase some upgrade (Banners maybe?) or units led by certain characters? Could be a good use for Brotherhood Champions.

 

Assaulting after a DS is a bad thing.  There's a reaosn Vanguard lost it (as bad as Vanguard were!).

 

DS during Deployment would just be Infiltrate.  GW seem hell bent on not letting TDA Infiltrate.  But our Strikes sure should.  And hold Locator Beacons for our Deep Striking units to piggy back off.

 

Like Ravenwing Scout Bikers.

 

We didn't get Drop Pods, becuase we can Deep Strike with nearly allour units.  Except we don't get the Deep Strike benefits that others (Dangel) get to make it useable.  And then lose out on the security Pods allow us.

 

We need either our own Grey Knight Assault rule (Servo Skulls were our attempt at Descent of Angels, but any army with a moderate amount of speed can easily remove that before they get to be used), or access to Pods.  Preferably both.  And Servo Skulls left as 'Chosers of the Slain' to buff our Templates and to stop Infiltrators.

[Quozzo]

I think our units deepstriking should have a 6" bubble that counts as difficult to enemies, as the teleportation caused some space-time to bend which hasn't quite settled yet. Daemons treat it normally, but if they're assaulting us they have bigger problems. Drops pods I feel are not for us. They can be destroyed and give up a VP to the enemy.

 

[edit] I do like the drop pod/DW assault rule in that half of the units can deep strike on turn one. Perhaps take it a step further and allow it for all our deep striking units to possibly make up the Aplha Strike force, such as strikes, terminators, dreadknights and interceptors. Or just make mech good again.

[soots]

Have draigo's sword go down to ap2 or reduce his cost to 250

reduce the cost for the dreadknight's teleporter

have the brotherhood banner give either +1 to deny the witch/+1 to cast a power or have some effect on daemons

allow the option for terminators to swap out stormbolters for shields as well as justicars

jetbikes or bikes as a fast attack option?

grand strategy: unyeilding anvil i feel is pointless due to everything scoring now, change it so unbound units have the objective secured special rule

have items for specific squads like strikes can take an item where deepstrikers mishap, gms/bcs have psychic communion etc

[thraxdown]

Now I haven't played 40k for as long as many of you have, but I don't understand why assaulting after deep strike is such a bad thing. Shooty units get to shoot after deepstriking, why can't choppy units get to chop after they do so? I believe you should get one action after you deepstrike - charge, run or shoot. I don't think it would be that overpowered, deepstriking within charge range is pretty risky in and of itself. The unit being charged still gets overwatch, and there's way to mitigate any op'ness like with a leadership test or overwatch being fired at bs2. That's just my opinion, assault out of deep strike has been something I've wanted to see for awhile now.

[Gentlemanloser]

Because if you don't kill the unit, you get to tie it up for potentially the rest of the game.

 

If you shot a unit however, if you don't kill it, it gets to act in return.

 

Edit: Plus generally, it's easier to get mass low AP attacks in Assault, than it is Shooting.