Fixing Grey Knights for 7th Edition

[Grand Master Caloth]

Play Planetstrike with GKs. It's amazing how good charging of deepstrike can be

[thraxdown]

Haha, okay ill try it sometime!

[Grand Master Caloth]

It's a fun change of pace. But I do agree, if we had an ability to do it, even if we forgo shooting, that wouldn't be bad

[Shadrach03]

Been thinking about an idea for a named librarian after reading some 40kwiki and what not.

 

Hyperion

 

WS  BS  S  T  W  I  A  LD  Save

4     5     4  4  3   4 2   10   2+

 

Wargear

Terminator Armor

Frag, Krak, Psyk-out grenades

Master Crafted Storm Bolter

Master Crafted Bolt Pistol

Psy-bolts

Psychic Hood

Spire of Castian-master crafted nemesis force staff, add +1 to manifest psychic powers,  may roll for one additional psychic power (this does not interfere with gaining the primaris power for selecting a single discipline) 

 

Special Rules-

Psyker mastery level 3

all the usual GK rules (ATSKNF, Aegis, etc...)

Marksman-may fire both his storm bolter and bolt pistol in a single shooting phase and at 2 different targets

Daring Advance-May replace his terminator armor with artificer armor and a personal teleporter.  if alone or in a group of interceptors the squad may assault after arriving from deep strike or after a shunt move, this may only happen once per game.

 

Please let me know what you think

[Quozzo]

Been thinking about an idea for a named librarian after reading some 40kwiki and what not.

 

Hyperion

 

WS  BS  S  T  W  I  A  LD  Save

4     5     4  4  3   4 2   10   2+

 

Wargear

Terminator Armor

Frag, Krak, Psyk-out grenades

Master Crafted Storm Bolter

Master Crafted Bolt Pistol

Psy-bolts

Psychic Hood

Spire of Castian-master crafted nemesis force staff, add +1 to manifest psychic powers,  may roll for one additional psychic power (this does not interfere with gaining the primaris power for selecting a single discipline) 

 

Special Rules-

Psyker mastery level 3

all the usual GK rules (ATSKNF, Aegis, etc...)

Marksman-may fire both his storm bolter and bolt pistol in a single shooting phase and at 2 different targets

Daring Advance-May replace his terminator armor with artificer armor and a personal teleporter.  if alone or in a group of interceptors the squad may assault after arriving from deep strike or after a shunt move, this may only happen once per game.

 

Please let me know what you think

Grey Knights don't use bolt pistols, we have no need for them as storm bolters are even better than boltguns and all our PAGK come with them as standard. Is the extra power he rolls not effected by the psychic focus rule. So he can pick one power from biomancy and still get the primaris power for example. If so I think that needs to be changed as even a prognosticar has limits, same with Abbadon. I also feel that assaulting from Shunt is too good as it can occur on turn one and has no scatter, having it still work from DS is fine though as the risk/reward is there, providing the unit cannot shoot too.

[Shadrach03]

I put the bolt pistol in as his fluff made special mention of him carrying one in addition to his storm bolter and his skill with it.  the staff generated power could just be restricted to gaining a primaris power from another discipline.   I didn't know what to cost him out in points but i think that losing your invul save with dropping to jump and charging with interceptors who aren't any better in cc than strikes should be somewhat risky or at least you would spend more points to make a unit a better in close combat that usually is kept shooty.  Maybe to keep them from shooting before they shunt or arrive via deepstrike they declare they are using the rule and must make an out of turn assault move once they hit the board.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mechanically, every GK should carry a Bolt Pistol in addition to thier Storm Bolters (much like Marines can and do carry a Bolt Pitsol alongside a Boltgun) if only for the extra attack in CC. ;)

 

That or we get True Grit back.

 

/whistles

[Valerian]

Gentlemen, proposals of home-made special characters doesn't meet the intent of this thread; please move discussion of those elsewhere. I recommend the home-made rules sub forum.

[thraxdown]

What was true grit?

[Gentlemanloser]

Got +1A with a Storm Bolter in CC, but only if you didn't Charge.

 

(It didn't stack with the Charge bonus +1A in CC).

[lt051]

Also weird thought, but our termis will probably lose grenades in the next codex (just frag and krak I mean)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Also weird thought, but our termis will probably lose grenades in the next codex (just frag and krak I mean) 

 

 

I doubt it. The reason they have grenades is unlike other Chapters we rarely if ever engage in mechanised warfare (hence our Rhinos and Land Raiders gathering dust on Titan...*cough* hull points *cough*), so we'll never be tooling around in an LRC with frag launchers. Also, all our nemesis weapons with the exception of the hammer rely on us hitting at Initiative (the halberd is completely pointless if we don't have frags). 

[Rurik the blessed]

Well, i'm wondering,

whay not make paladins Independant Characters when they are "solodins", this way they will fit their true purpose, to serve as guards.

So, we could attach them to units like Strike Squads to serve as bodyguards.

[Quozzo]

If that's the case they would all be ICs as you can attach ICs to ICs and thus group them to any squad. I'm not against the idea, they would act like the wolf guard aiding their brethren. I was just describing the mechanics.

[ravencrow]

    I would like to see a change from exclusively a deamon hunter army to more of a "hey, we'll fight anyone" type of army.

I know the fluff is deamon killing but come on-here's a primaris power everyone gets that is only usable on deamons<--should have been different.

Another thing to add to that is psilencers.

 Having 6 shots is cool but what does a psilencer do that a psycannon can't? oh the psilencer is free for most units, and when the codex came out there was no such thing as snap shots, sooo....yeah. The idea of a gun that hits deamons on a 4+ sounds good but psybolt will do that against plague barers and psycannons will do that and more to everything anyway. So what if there are no deamons on the table? hmmm. However, like we all know, a psilencer shoots 6 shots and is mostly free.

 Someone suggested to give them pinning and also str 5. 

 That would do it i think. Or str 4, pinning and put them on the psybolt list.

Its not OP.

 I don't think ppl will spam them.

 I think it's good because with a - AP value and then a LD test (for pinning) it wont be too much and it wont just be for deamons.

   Next, I think like the Baal to Blood Angels, the GK need more unique vehicles. To achieve this NOW means to spend time (as well as money) fixing the bent and warped pieces of resin that forge world makes for a cool looking army but with no real change in unique vehicles. The SoB have unique tanks, and that's cool. 

  I agree with the addition of a hyperion libby <--- supper cool. Also the Grand-Mast, Bro-Cap, and Bro-Champ w/PT/term armor/Dread Knight armor are all great suggestions and much needed upgrades. 

  On a side note: Some of you might remember that when storm shields first came out they were a 3++ save just in close combat. why cant force swords have the change that storm shields got. Although it does seem strange that a force sword could stop a well aimed laz shot.....

  A SM like points change is needed. Not just for sales or for more 10 man squads but for.....well, yeah just for sales and 10 man squads.

  Anti-Armor.

   Ranged anti-armor would be nice.

 What I have in mind is a picture on page 59 of the GK codex. Whats wrong with a purge squad (having lost Astral Aim) with 4 conversion beamers. This would wreck stuff at long range, big time!, and also be not too bad at mid-range and str 6 ap - at 18" no huge threat. You can't over watch or use snapshots with them so an enemy is capable of countering that with some fast moving Close Combat so i don't think its unreasonable to let them have the beamers, plus think of how cool the gun would look, or mabe the look on your IG friends face, hahaha. Having that gun as an upgrade for all grey knights is a good idea as well as for some unique vehicles. With the rise of supper heavy vehicles/walkers the beamer is what Grey Knights should have access to.

  Why is GW making mostly all armies use the same psyker powers. Anyone can use the Sanctic or Malefic but at a high risk. Now look at the Grey Knights. All of the units have Hammer, purifiers have Cleanse, and vehicles have Sanctuary. So for free we get 3 of the 6 powers (plus primaris) What of the other 3......hmmm, not intrested in possibly loseing high points costing units to deepstrike or a D weapon. Purge Soul seems fine, only against lower LD that is. There should be a book like Escalation but just for unique psyker powers and the armies that can use them.

  So, to sum it all up this is what i would like to see: 

            1: less focus on deamon killing (excluding fluff of coarse)

            2: change psilencers

            3: at least 2 unique vehicles and/or access to SM vehicles

            4: a major over haul in the HQ area

            5: access to conversion beamers

            6: army unique psychic powers (not just for the Grey Knights but for alI)

 

      I hope this will give ppl some good ideas and I hope it didnt sound too much like a rant, thnx for your time :)

                                     

                                                                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                                               Brother-Captain Ravencrow

[Adeptus]

So, to sum it all up this is what i would like to see:

1: less focus on deamon killing (excluding fluff of coarse)

2: change psilencers

3: at least 2 unique vehicles and/or access to SM vehicles

4: a major over haul in the HQ area

5: access to conversion beamers

6: army unique psychic powers (not just for the Grey Knights but for alI)

I hope this will give ppl some good ideas and I hope it didnt sound too much like a rant, thnx for your time

Brother-Captain Ravencrow

I feel that would make the Grey Knights too generic. They have weaknesses built in which help to define them as an army on the tabletop (and the background). Now, they can patch those weaknesses with allies, but I think it's important to let them keep their identity rather than just become SM+1

[thraxdown]

So, to sum it all up this is what i would like to see:

1: less focus on deamon killing (excluding fluff of coarse)

2: change psilencers

3: at least 2 unique vehicles and/or access to SM vehicles

4: a major over haul in the HQ area

5: access to conversion beamers

6: army unique psychic powers (not just for the Grey Knights but for alI)

I hope this will give ppl some good ideas and I hope it didnt sound too much like a rant, thnx for your time

Brother-Captain Ravencrow

I feel that would make the Grey Knights too generic. They have weaknesses built in which help to define them as an army on the tabletop (and the background). Now, they can patch those weaknesses with allies, but I think it's important to let them keep their identity rather than just become SM+1

I agree that would make us too generic. To fix what ails us would be to fix assault as often our only reliable anti tank is a hammerhanded hammer smashing it to bits. It's nice when things that help us fight daemons also help us against other armies (like warp quake did), but I want almost everything in the dex to be written around killing daemons. Sometimes that hurts us, but we're supposed to be daemon killers. I'm completely against anything that turns us into just another space marine army.

[Grand Master Caloth]

The only problem is, if you do that, the a daemon player would simply pick up their army and leave. It would make their codex completely moot, and that's not fair to them either

[ravencrow]

   I can see how that would make the Grey Knights too generic and no one wants that, but, they are supposed to have access to any/the best war gear. I think its true you wont see a GK army with a bunch of tanks because they work in small teams mostly of 5, but then again if you saw them you and your planet would be shot in the face. Fluff wise that's how it goes. So why would a Grey Knight force feel that they are too weak to win and call in some bane blades for fire support? Well they wouldn't, the Inquisition would make that call.

   I don't want to buy another armies tanks and have them working with my knights on the table. What i want is a battle-forged all Grey Knights army that can take on different armies not just deamons. It seems tough to balance fluff and game play.

   Maybe my idea of the GKs is wrong.

   Maybe i should ali but are the GKs a supplement or an army...

 

                                                                                                                                                      Brother-Captain Ravencrow

 

 

 

[Adeptus]

 

   I can see how that would make the Grey Knights too generic and no one wants that, but, they are supposed to have access to any/the best war gear. I think its true you wont see a GK army with a bunch of tanks because they work in small teams mostly of 5, but then again if you saw them you and your planet would be shot in the face. Fluff wise that's how it goes. So why would a Grey Knight force feel that they are too weak to win and call in some bane blades for fire support? Well they wouldn't, the Inquisition would make that call.

   I don't want to buy another armies tanks and have them working with my knights on the table. What i want is a battle-forged all Grey Knights army that can take on different armies not just deamons. It seems tough to balance fluff and game play.

   Maybe my idea of the GKs is wrong.

   Maybe i should ali but are the GKs a supplement or an army...

 

                                                                                                                                                      Brother-Captain Ravencrow

 

 

 

 

 

I don't want to say your idea of the GK is wrong, but it feels more like a generic SM army than the GK. I think the GK need to maintain their own identity separate from other SM, and an identity is best maintained by having both strengths AND weaknesses. No one would want to play anything but GK if we had access to everything other SM had as well as all our squads being psykers. I think we need to maintain our short range and close combat focus, and I think we need to be able to tweak our army to maximise that, by allowing some kind of first turn deepstrike for our units or allowing units with banners to re-roll their charge distance or add D3 to their charge distance or maybe allow Landraiders to be taken as dedicated transports for our units, or just something so that we don't have to slog across the table with our Terminators just to get shot to bits before we reach the middle of the table!

 

I don't think everything in the army should be centered around playing against Daemons, either. Or rather, there needs to be some balance. I mean, Daemons at the moment are an overpowered abomination, so GK are hardly over-powered against them, but in an ideal world if both the GK and the Daemons were balanced, I would like to see the GK Daemon hunting expertise balanced out by some kind of points or model concession for the Daemon player. Like, if facing GK then a Daemon player may add an extra Greater Daemon to his force, or may add 10% more points, or automatically gains +2 victory points, or something like that. So we GK have an edge in combat, but still face an even battle because the odds are tipped against us.

[Captain Coolpants]

I really like the first turn deepstrike idea. That's 100% fluffy and ISN'T OP because for just 35pts,a regular marine army can do it, but are practically immune to dangerous terrain, are more protected by interceptor fire AND can have weapons, if you haven't guessed I'm talking about drop pods.

So to ask for a first turn deepstrike on certain unit's with no protection from terrain or weapons is completely reasonable.

[lt051]

Problem is dark angels already do that, not saying it's not fluffy for us, I just don't see redundant marine special rules like that happening. Honestly if settle for more reliable teleporter homers/beacons

 

Also I'm all for anti-daemon focus. I'd pick fluff over what's competitive every day of the week (to an extent, sorry BC :/ )

[Quozzo]

Also I'm all for anti-daemon focus. I'd pick fluff over what's competitive every day of the week (to an extent, sorry BC :/ )

I would too. Grey Knights are daemon-hunters. Anathema to the warp itself. The weapons we wield are effective against all armies but enhanced by our psychic might and thus some are even more effective against daemons. The deathwatch can deal with the rest of them, that is what they're trained and equipped for.

[thraxdown]

Problem is dark angels already do that, not saying it's not fluffy for us, I just don't see redundant marine special rules like that happening. Honestly if settle for more reliable teleporter homers/beacons

 

Also I'm all for anti-daemon focus. I'd pick fluff over what's competitive every day of the week (to an extent, sorry BC :/ )

True, but can dark angels turn one deep strike power Armour?

[Adeptus]

Well, at the end of the day we all play Marine armies. Every army with Drop Pods has the option to keep their entire army in reserve, and a first turn deepstrike. Some other armies (Dark Angels) can deploy their Terminators first turn.

 

Our book was written in an edition where ending a turn with no models on the table carried no penalty, and given that most of our units were able to deepstrike we were well placed to take advantage of that. Which was important, since a lot of our units don't have great mobility and our weaponry is mostly very short ranged.

 

When we changed to 6th edition, a lot of Marine armies didn't feel the pinch because if they wanted to deepstrike their army, they still could by using drop pods (and Dark Angels got their codex right off the bat, so they never felt the pinch either). Whereas we, relying on our ability to deepstrike, were forced to deploy our forces on the table and slog across by foot. And given our low model count we were forced to choose between keeping some models in reserve and leaving a handful on the table, likely to be wiped out, or keeping only a handful of models in reserve and leaving most of our army vulnerable to enemy fire.

 

So, if our units were to have some kind of ability to deepstrike turn one (I think calling it "The tip of his Spear" would be awesome) I think that would be within the tolerable limits of cross-over rules or abilities, especially given that we are all Marine armies.