Fixing Grey Knights for 7th Edition

[Captain Coolpants]

I say we make a petition for games workshop to give us 1st turn deepstrike!

[Valerian]

Team,  I've been following the thread closely, and have been making notes on the various recommendations that have been put forth so far.  Of those, I selected the ones that I considered the best (most viable, appropriate, thematic, etc.).  Here are the results, so far.  I look forward to any additional comments, criticisms, or recommendations.

 

The Army

 

• Teleport Attack:  all non-vehicle Grey Knights units (i.e. infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature, jump monstrous creature) have the Deep Strike rule, and may make a Teleport Attack.  Before deployment determine how many units will be kept in Reserves to conduct a Teleport Attack.  Half of all units (rounding up) with the Deep Strike rule will be deployed during the first turn, with the rest being determined by the standard process for determining Reserves in subsequent turns.
• Psybolt Ammunition: all non-vehicle Grey Knights models with storm bolters can upgrade to Psybolt Ammunition for +2 points per model.

 

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 1).

 

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he must be attached to a Grey Knights unit with the Deep Strike rule, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are not purchased as a unit prior to the game, but are spawned whenever Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process); they are simply added to whatever unit Morkrak is currently attached to, if any. 
• If Mordrak leaves a unit, any Ghost Knights go with him, and must maintain 2” coherency at all times.
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, then any Ghost Knights are removed as well.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +25 points to offset these improvements.

 

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

 

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).
• Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +15 points to offset these improvements.

 

Grey Knight Brother-Captain

 

• A Brother-Captain may choose to exchange his Terminator Armour for Articifer Armour for free.
• If in Articifer Armour, he may select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• A Brother-Captain may upgrade his Mastery Level to ML2 for +25 points.

 

Brother-Captain Arvann Stern

 

• Brother-Captain Arvann Stern has The Grand Strategy
• One of Brother-Captain Stern’s psychic powers will always be Vortex of Doom, from the Sanctic Daemonology discipline table; roll for his other power as normal.
• Brother-Captain Stern still has The Strands of Fate special rule.

 

 

Castellan Garran Crowe

 

• Castellan Garran Crowe becomes an Independent Character, but may only be attached to a unit of Grey Knights Purifiers.
• Castellan Crowe carries the Blade of Antwyr (secured to his back a la Cypher), but fights with an Anointed Blade. 
• Enemy models in a unit that assaults Castellan Crowe still get Furious Charge and re-roll failed To Hit roll against him, and any unit he has joined, in that Assault phase.
• Castellan Crowe gains a base of 4 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.

 

Brotherhood Champion

 

• Brotherhood Champions get an additional Wound (i.e. 2W).
• Brotherhood Champions gain a base of 3 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• If a Brother-Captain is in the army list, a Brotherhood Champion may be taken without filling an FOC slot.
• Look out, Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any Brotherhood Champion in a unit, regardless of whether he is the nearest model, and he automatically passes any Glorious Intervention attempts.  

 

 

Librarian

 

• Price drop to o/a 115 points base.

 

Techmarine

 

• Price drop to o/a 50 points base.
• Does not occupy an FOC slot, but otherwise counts as an Elites choice.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +20 points.

 

Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)

• A Grand Master can automatically Lo,S! to a Paladin.
• Paladins gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• The Apothecary upgrade cost is reduced to +25 points.
• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Paladin units.

 

Grey Knight Terminator Squad

 

• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Grey Knights Terminator squads.
• Grey Knights Terminator squads gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

 

Strike Squad

 

• Strike Squads gain both Scout and Infiltrate special rules. 
• The Strike Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

 

Purgation Squad

 

• Purgation Squads gain the Relentless special rule.

 

Purifier Squad

 

• Purifier Squads only get 1 Special Weapon per 5 models, rather than 2.

 

Interceptor Squad

 

• The price of the Incinerator option for Interceptors is reduced to +10 points each.
• The Interceptor Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

 

 

Nemesis Dreadknight

 

• Dreadknights gain psyk-out grenade launchers.
• A Nemesis Daemon Hammer carried by a Dreadknight strikes at AP1.
• The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.
• A Nemesis Dreadknight may take a Personal Teleporter for +40 points.
• The Nemesis Greatsword is a Specialist Weapon (like the Doomfist and Daemon Hammer) which attacks at I+2 and S: User.  The Greatsword still allows rerolls to all failed To Hit, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls.

 

Dreadnought

 

• Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.

 

Venerable Dreadnought

 

• Venerable Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.
• Venerable Dreadnoughts are Psychic Mastery Level 2, and have access to only the Santic Daemonology discipline table.

 

Brotherhood Banner

 

• Units with a Brotherhood Banner may reroll any failed dice rolls on the Psychic Power activation check for Force, in addition to granting an extra Attack per model in close combat. 

 

Servo Skulls

 

• Cannot be removed from play.

 

Psilencers

 

• Wounds from Psilencers ignore Invulnerable saves.

 

Nemesis Force Falchions

 

• Any model equipped with Nemesis Force Falchions gains +2 Attacks in close combat.

[Captain Coolpants]

<p>

 

Team, I've been following the thread closely, and have been making notes on the various recommendations that have been put forth so far. Of those, I selected the ones that I considered the best (most viable, appropriate, thematic, etc.). Here are the results, so far. I look forward to any additional comments, criticisms, or recommendations.

 

The Army

 

• Teleport Attack: all non-vehicle Grey Knights units (i.e. infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature, jump monstrous creature) have the Deep Strike rule, and may make a Teleport Attack. Before deployment determine how many units will be kept in Reserves to conduct a Teleport Attack. Half of all units (rounding up) with the Deep Strike rule will be deployed during the first turn, with the rest being determined by the standard process for determining Reserves in subsequent turns.
• Psybolt Ammunition: all non-vehicle Grey Knights models with storm bolters can upgrade to Psybolt Ammunition for +2 points per model.

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 1).

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he must be attached to a Grey Knights unit with the Deep Strike rule, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are not purchased as a unit prior to the game, but are spawned whenever Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process); they are simply added to whatever unit Morkrak is currently attached to, if any.
• If Mordrak leaves a unit, any Ghost Knights go with him, and must maintain 2” coherency at all times.
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, then any Ghost Knights are removed as well.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +25 points to offset these improvements.

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).
• Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +15 points to offset these improvements.

Grey Knight Brother-Captain

• A Brother-Captain may choose to exchange his Terminator Armour for Articifer Armour for free.
• If in Articifer Armour, he may select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• A Brother-Captain may upgrade his Mastery Level to ML2 for +25 points.

Brother-Captain Arvann Stern

• Brother-Captain Arvann Stern has The Grand Strategy
• One of Brother-Captain Stern’s psychic powers will always be Vortex of Doom, from the Sanctic Daemonology discipline table; roll for his other power as normal.
• Brother-Captain Stern still has The Strands of Fate special rule.

Castellan Garran Crowe

• Castellan Garran Crowe becomes an Independent Character, but may only be attached to a unit of Grey Knights Purifiers.
• Castellan Crowe carries the Blade of Antwyr (secured to his back a la Cypher), but fights with an Anointed Blade.
• Enemy models in a unit that assaults Castellan Crowe still get Furious Charge and re-roll failed To Hit roll against him, and any unit he has joined, in that Assault phase.
• Castellan Crowe gains a base of 4 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.

Brotherhood Champion

• Brotherhood Champions get an additional Wound (i.e. 2W).
• Brotherhood Champions gain a base of 3 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• If a Brother-Captain is in the army list, a Brotherhood Champion may be taken without filling an FOC slot.
• Look out, Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any Brotherhood Champion in a unit, regardless of whether he is the nearest model, and he automatically passes any Glorious Intervention attempts.

Librarian

• Price drop to o/a 115 points base.

Techmarine

• Price drop to o/a 50 points base.
• Does not occupy an FOC slot, but otherwise counts as an Elites choice.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +20 points.

Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)

• A Grand Master can automatically Lo,S! to a Paladin.
• Paladins gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• The Apothecary upgrade cost is reduced to +25 points.
• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Paladin units.

Grey Knight Terminator Squad

• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Grey Knights Terminator squads.
• Grey Knights Terminator squads gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

Strike Squad

• Strike Squads gain both Scout and Infiltrate special rules.
• The Strike Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

Purgation Squad

• Purgation Squads gain the Relentless special rule.

Purifier Squad

• Purifier Squads only get 1 Special Weapon per 5 models, rather than 2.

Interceptor Squad

• The price of the Incinerator option for Interceptors is reduced to +10 points each.
• The Interceptor Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

Nemesis Dreadknight

• Dreadknights gain psyk-out grenade launchers.
• A Nemesis Daemon Hammer carried by a Dreadknight strikes at AP1.
• The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.
• A Nemesis Dreadknight may take a Personal Teleporter for +40 points.
• The Nemesis Greatsword is a Specialist Weapon (like the Doomfist and Daemon Hammer) which attacks at I+2 and S: User. The Greatsword still allows rerolls to all failed To Hit, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls.

Dreadnought

• Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.

Venerable Dreadnought

• Venerable Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.
• Venerable Dreadnoughts are Psychic Mastery Level 2, and have access to only the Santic Daemonology discipline table.

Brotherhood Banner

• Units with a Brotherhood Banner may reroll any failed dice rolls on the Psychic Power activation check for Force, in addition to granting an extra Attack per model in close combat.

Servo Skulls

• Cannot be removed from play.

Psilencers

• Wounds from Psilencers ignore Invulnerable saves.

Nemesis Force Falchions

• Any model equipped with Nemesis Force Falchions gains +2 Attacks in close combat.

I agree with All of this other than stern, falchons and the teleporters. Teleporters should be only slightly more expensive than a regular jump pack. And stern isn't a grandmaster so shouldn't get grand strategy. Also stern is sucky!either scrap him or keep his as a brother captain with upgraded stats :-P

 

Also falchons should only give +1 attack, but they should do it farr cheaper to make up for the fact that technically, grey Knight use a storm bolter as a single handed weapon, which should grant then an extra attack anyway!

[Valerian]

I agree with All of this other than stern, falchons and the teleporters. Teleporters should be only slightly more expensive than a regular jump pack.

I think the Teleporters are at about the right price; they're about the same here as they cost a regular Space Marine Captain. You have to account for the ability to Shunt, too, which is a pretty big deal. I wouldn't feel right bringing the cost down any more from the +25 recommended for the Brother-Captain and Brotherhood Champion above.

 

And stern isn't a grandmaster so shouldn't get grand strategy.

Stern isn't a Grand Master only because he has turned down the offer for promotion until he has dealt with M'kachen. Thus, I felt justified in giving him access to the special rule that other Brother-Captains wouldn't have yet. In the fluff, he really ought to already be among the Grand Masters, hence the inclusion of The Grand Strategy.

 

[Gentlemanloser]

Val, looks awesome. (Sad thing is this will never happen now, GW can't use it for fear of us claiming IP rights! j/k)

A couple of points;

Mechanically, the "only attach this IC to unit x" can cause problems. What about other ICs attaching to said unit? Is a Unit of Purifiers with an Inquisitor ok for Crowe to join? What happens to said unit when all the Purifiers are killed, and Crowe and the Inquisitor are left alive?

Purgation Squads gain the Relentless special rule.

Might be better to just give them the option to Purchase TDA. This gives them Relentless, fits the fluff (there is *no* reason for them to be in PA...) and would cost. Rather than being a freebie.

Edit: Maybe give them Scout/Infiltrate in PA like Strikes, but have the option to purchase TDA (and lose Scout/Infiltrate).

The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.

Give them the option to purchase two of the same Ranged Weapons.

Venerable Dreadnought

Still a TRAP! Call Admiral Akbar!

Venerable need something like AV13 (like Furiosos/Ironclads) and/or a way of mitigating Glances.

And a point reduction.

But apart from that, all pure gold.

/thumbs up

[Valerian]

Val, looks awesome. (Sad thing is this will never happen now, GW can't use it for fear of us claiming IP rights! j/k)

I'll send in a note to let them know that I've released all claims on any IP here.

Mechanically, the "only attach this IC to unit x" can cause problems. What about other ICs attaching to said unit? Is a Unit of Purifiers with an Inquisitor ok for Crowe to join? What happens to said unit when all the Purifiers are killed, and Crowe and the Inquisitor are left alive?

The wording can be massaged to clarify the restriction/constraint rather easily, I should think. Should be clear that other ICs wouldn't interfere with the joining of Crowe to a unit of Purifiers, for example.

Purgation Squads gain the Relentless special rule.

Might be better to just give them the option to Purchase TDA. This gives them Relentless, fits the fluff (there is *no* reason for them to be in PA...) and would cost. Rather than being a freebie.

Just my preferece, here, but I really don't want to push to make Purgators a TDA unit. Much prefer giving them Relentless as a special rule in Power Armour, even if it means we'd need to up their base cost by a point or two to offset the advantage, if that is a big concern from the team. Also, I feel this suggestion would be more palatable to GW, or an adversary.

The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.

Give them the option to purchase two of the same Ranged Weapons.

YES! Excellent suggestion, I'll edit that one in, above.

Venerable Dreadnought

Still a TRAP! Call Admiral Akbar!

Venerable need something like AV13 (like Furiosos/Ironclads) and/or a way of mitigating Glances.

Another good suggestion...what price would you suggest as a baseline for AV13 ML2 Venerable Dread?

But apart from that, all pure gold.

/thumbs up

Thanks much!

[Gentlemanloser]

I feel this suggestion would be more palatable to GW, or an adversary.

I'm on the other side of the fence and would find the option to purchase a TDA upgrade (with all the benefits and drawbacks, like no SA, Bulky etc), which could be an expensive option, more palatable than giving PA devs Relentless for a couple of points or so.

I suppose it's not too bad, as you can't give them Meltas.

Another good suggestion...what price would you suggest as a baseline for AV13 ML2 Venerable Dread?

Looking at the latest MS dex for reference (Bangles would be good to check, but it's older and I don't have it to hand! );

Ironclads are 135. Dreads 100. And Venerable is a *much* more reasonable upgrade cost. I'd suggest keeping the same upgrade cost for it as there.

Our Dreads are 15 points more expensive, when the rest of our vehicles are only 5 more. While our Venerable upgrade is a whopping over double cost.

Maybe something like;

GK Dread: 105 (I see no worth in an increased cost for being Heavy over Elite)

GK Venerable (AV13, PML2): 160

How much is a Bangle Libby Dread?

Edit;

Ah-ha! Here it is;

[Quozzo]

Team, I've been following the thread closely, and have been making notes on the various recommendations that have been put forth so far. Of those, I selected the ones that I considered the best (most viable, appropriate, thematic, etc.). Here are the results, so far. I look forward to any additional comments, criticisms, or recommendations.

The Army

• Teleport Attack: all non-vehicle Grey Knights units (i.e. infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature, jump monstrous creature) have the Deep Strike rule, and may make a Teleport Attack. Before deployment determine how many units will be kept in Reserves to conduct a Teleport Attack. Half of all units (rounding up) with the Deep Strike rule will be deployed during the first turn, with the rest being determined by the standard process for determining Reserves in subsequent turns.

I think that will be too good. Currently only purifiers and purgators cant DS which is a good thing as they will dominate on the first turn.

• Psybolt Ammunition: all non-vehicle Grey Knights models with storm bolters can upgrade to Psybolt Ammunition for +2 points per model.

I quite like juggling between using it on a full squad then to combat squad them or needing to fulfill the 2 troop choices. But it's balanced I suppose.

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 1).

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he must be attached to a Grey Knights unit with the Deep Strike rule, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are not purchased as a unit prior to the game, but are spawned whenever Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process); they are simply added to whatever unit Morkrak is currently attached to, if any.
• If Mordrak leaves a unit, any Ghost Knights go with him, and must maintain 2” coherency at all times.
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, then any Ghost Knights are removed as well.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +25 points to offset these improvements.

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).
• Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +15 points to offset these improvements.

So 25 points to become an IC or 15 points to not have the ghost knights die when Mordrak does. As all units can deepstrike on turn one there really isn't a choice anymore. So Mordrak doesn't scatter but with persistent skulls it's now half the risk. With Blood Angels' Decent of Angels its not a risk.

Grey Knight Brother-Captain

• A Brother-Captain may choose to exchange his Terminator Armour for Articifer Armour for free.
• If in Articifer Armour, he may select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• A Brother-Captain may upgrade his Mastery Level to ML2 for +25 points.

Changes to AA for free, which is nerfing him. I think he should either start in AA and upgrade to TDA or his AA comes with a PT. Either way he cant upgrade his storm bolter in AA, but I assume that's implied.

Brother-Captain Arvann Stern

• Brother-Captain Arvann Stern has The Grand Strategy
• One of Brother-Captain Stern’s psychic powers will always be Vortex of Doom, from the Sanctic Daemonology discipline table; roll for his other power as normal.
• Brother-Captain Stern still has The Strands of Fate special rule.

I agree with jbat360. Stern is a captain and so shouldn't have TGS. (I did mention he should have another rule I made up called The Grand Tactic if that's what you're referring to)

Castellan Garran Crowe

• Castellan Garran Crowe becomes an Independent Character, but may only be attached to a unit of Grey Knights Purifiers.
• Castellan Crowe carries the Blade of Antwyr (secured to his back a la Cypher), but fights with an Anointed Blade.
• Enemy models in a unit that assaults Castellan Crowe still get Furious Charge and re-roll failed To Hit roll against him, and any unit he has joined, in that Assault phase.
• Castellan Crowe gains a base of 4 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.

I couldn't agree more. Provided he still unlocks purifiers as troops. I dont see anything wrong with double (or tripple) tapping cleansing flame

Brotherhood Champion

• Brotherhood Champions get an additional Wound (i.e. 2W).
• Brotherhood Champions gain a base of 3 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• If a Brother-Captain is in the army list, a Brotherhood Champion may be taken without filling an FOC slot.
• Look out, Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any Brotherhood Champion in a unit, regardless of whether he is the nearest model, and he automatically passes any Glorious Intervention attempts.

One of the stances (Rapier Strike) gives the B-C 1D3 attacks at initiative 10! What if instead of a base number of attacks he rolls 1D3+1 so an avarage of 3 instead of 2. Crowe could be 1D3+2 or 2D3 to keep his average at 4. As challenges now roll over to the squad then any wounds that are allocated to an IC (as per the Rapier Strike stance) could roll over to the unit too.

Librarian

• Price drop to o/a 115 points base.

TBH i think that's too low. Its the same as a ML2 SM libby in TDA but we have some better rules and we dont perils on any double for santic powers. I'm thinking 120 points but its only a small difference.

Techmarine

• Price drop to o/a 50 points base.
• Does not occupy an FOC slot, but otherwise counts as an Elites choice.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +20 points.

A techmarine with a PT? Where's his servo harness going to go? Also maybe a limit of 0-3 per detachment or 1-3 count as a single elites choice or something.

Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)

• A Grand Master can automatically Lo,S! to a Paladin.
• Paladins gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• The Apothecary upgrade cost is reduced to +25 points.
• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Paladin units.

Apothecary for 25 points is an auto include. Considering its going to be saving around 275 points around 1/3 of the time at least 50 points to match the Sang Priest should suffice. Although personally I think 75 points is worth it.

Grey Knight Terminator Squad

• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Grey Knights Terminator squads.
• Grey Knights Terminator squads gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

Terminators never had a special power so I don't see why they need one now.

Strike Squad

• Strike Squads gain both Scout and Infiltrate special rules.
• The Strike Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

Considering that half of the army can DS turn one, I think scouting/infiltrating the remaining strikes would be akin to a pre-emptive strike. With persistant skulls which work on turn one all over the board then a locator beacon on a unit which might not be in the right place at the right time is going to be situational, for +15 you can buy a few more skulls.

Purgation Squad

• Purgation Squads gain the Relentless special rule.

I agree with GML in that they should have the option to acquire TDA. Ironic considering he was against my idea in the first place Perhaps limit the number of melee weapons to 1/5 or 2/5 or make the special weapons 4/5 instead of 4/5-10.

Purifier Squad

• Purifier Squads only get 1 Special Weapon per 5 models, rather than 2.

Nooooooooooo. I would rather they gave up cleansing flame. I don't know why they're the only ones to get a free power. I know it's a nerf but its making them OP and every list crams in as many as possible.

Interceptor Squad

• The price of the Incinerator option for Interceptors is reduced to +10 points each.
• The Interceptor Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

See Strikes.

Nemesis Dreadknight

• Dreadknights gain psyk-out grenade launchers.
• A Nemesis Daemon Hammer carried by a Dreadknight strikes at AP1.
• The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.
• A Nemesis Dreadknight may take a Personal Teleporter for +40 points.
• The Nemesis Greatsword is a Specialist Weapon (like the Doomfist and Daemon Hammer) which attacks at I+2 and S: User. The Greatsword still allows rerolls to all failed To Hit, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls.

Are you saying that I cant use the Doomfist to get S10 rerolls because if the doomfist is a specialist weapon then it would give another +1A anyway? I think to gain rerolls it must sacrifice its strength, providing the hammer can also be bought which would give those bonuses back to make a melee beast. I also think the hammer should be flesh and/or armour bane because have you seen the size of it, yet it has the same rule as a petty hammer.

Dreadnought

• Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.

Venerable Dreadnought

• Venerable Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.
• Venerable Dreadnoughts are Psychic Mastery Level 2, and have access to only the Santic Daemonology discipline table.

I like the upgrades, but isn't that very similar to the dreadknight without the PT (I heard that's an option). With Av13 as GML suggested it would be more resilient than the NDK too (i think).

Brotherhood Banner

• Units with a Brotherhood Banner may reroll any failed dice rolls on the Psychic Power activation check for Force, in addition to granting an extra Attack per model in close combat.

Servo Skulls

• Cannot be removed from play.

Psilencers

• Wounds from Psilencers ignore Invulnerable saves.

Do Do Do Dut Dooo... I'm Loving it. I like the no invul thing on psilencers but fear we will completely dominate daemons.

Nemesis Force Falchions

• Any model equipped with Nemesis Force Falchions gains +2 Attacks in close combat.

Join us...

I wasn't expecting to critique everything, but there ya go.

[Gentlemanloser]

A techmarine with a PT? Where's his servo harness going to go? Also maybe a limit of 0-3 per detachment or 1-3 count as a single elites choice or something.

Good catch! The PT should be a trade off for the SA/SH.

Apothecary for 25 points is an auto include. Considering its going to be saving around 275 points around 1/3 of the time at least 50 points to match the Sang Priest should suffice. Although personally I think 75 points is worth it.

Not when it's an upgrade to a 55 point unit.

A SP is 50 base, a GK Apoc at +25 would be 80 base.

I agree with GML in that they should have the option to acquire TDA. Ironic considering he was against my idea in the first place

I was?

No idea why lol! It's a great idea.

[Quozzo]

A techmarine with a PT? Where's his servo harness going to go? Also maybe a limit of 0-3 per detachment or 1-3 count as a single elites choice or something.

Good catch! The PT should be a trade off for the SA/SH.

Apothecary for 25 points is an auto include. Considering its going to be saving around 275 points around 1/3 of the time at least 50 points to match the Sang Priest should suffice. Although personally I think 75 points is worth it.

Not when it's an upgrade to a 55 point unit.

A SP is 50 base, a GK Apoc at +25 would be 80 base.

I agree with GML in that they should have the option to acquire TDA. Ironic considering he was against my idea in the first place

I was?

No idea why lol! It's a great idea.

Here Although looking at it again I dont think you were talking about the purgation squads (after the first sentacne of course).

[ravencrow]

   This is all good stuff. It's just one thing, psilencers. I have BIG issue with these weapons. Look at all the GK army lists and count how many ppl upgrade to a psilencer. I put one in one of my intercepter squads cause it's free but it rarely does anything but take away an extra force weapon attack.

   So say it ignores invuln saves and (that's a big slap in the face to deamon players exclusively) shoot some TDA. No 5/3 up save but there is still that rad 2 up, so....yeah. It does seem strange to have a weapon for one use: shooting deamons.

   Some one suggested to give them pinning. Thats good. How about putting them on the psybolt list or base str 5 and 24" salvo 3/6. Better. How about all of that. Perfect!

[Valerian]

Team, I've been following the thread closely, and have been making notes on the various recommendations that have been put forth so far. Of those, I selected the ones that I considered the best (most viable, appropriate, thematic, etc.). Here are the results, so far. I look forward to any additional comments, criticisms, or recommendations.

The Army

• Teleport Attack: all non-vehicle Grey Knights units (i.e. infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creature, jump monstrous creature) have the Deep Strike rule, and may make a Teleport Attack. Before deployment determine how many units will be kept in Reserves to conduct a Teleport Attack. Half of all units (rounding up) with the Deep Strike rule will be deployed during the first turn, with the rest being determined by the standard process for determining Reserves in subsequent turns.

I think that will be too good. Currently only purifiers and purgators cant DS which is a good thing as they will dominate on the first turn.

Purifiers won’t dominate on the first turn via Deep Strike, really, since I’ve nerfed them below by halving their special ranged weapon options. You’ve got a point with Purgators now, though, so I’ll think about removing that for them, or some other alternative.

Generally, however, the Grey Knights need a viable Teleport Attack rule, as many have pointed out already for various reasons to include both fluff and crunch.

• Psybolt Ammunition: all non-vehicle Grey Knights models with storm bolters can upgrade to Psybolt Ammunition for +2 points per model.

I quite like juggling between using it on a full squad then to combat squad them or needing to fulfill the 2 troop choices. But it's balanced I suppose.

Hopefully this will be better balanced. As it stands, on squads the Psybolt Ammunition upgrade option punishes Characters (5 points each!) and smaller units, while it favors maxed squads. I feel that a blanket “per model” charge of 2 points each is more than fair, and we’d see more use across the army.

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 1).

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he must be attached to a Grey Knights unit with the Deep Strike rule, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are not purchased as a unit prior to the game, but are spawned whenever Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process); they are simply added to whatever unit Morkrak is currently attached to, if any.
• If Mordrak leaves a unit, any Ghost Knights go with him, and must maintain 2” coherency at all times.
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, then any Ghost Knights are removed as well.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +25 points to offset these improvements.

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).
• Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +15 points to offset these improvements.

So 25 points to become an IC or 15 points to not have the ghost knights die when Mordrak does. As all units can deepstrike on turn one there really isn't a choice anymore. So Mordrak doesn't scatter but with persistent skulls it's now half the risk. With Blood Angels' Decent of Angels its not a risk.

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to get across here. Do you prefer one option over the other, or neither of the two courses of action? If neither, can you be more clear on why, and make recommended adjustments to what I’ve proposed?

Grey Knight Brother-Captain

• A Brother-Captain may choose to exchange his Terminator Armour for Articifer Armour for free.
• If in Articifer Armour, he may select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• A Brother-Captain may upgrade his Mastery Level to ML2 for +25 points.

Changes to AA for free, which is nerfing him. I think he should either start in AA and upgrade to TDA or his AA comes with a PT. Either way he cant upgrade his storm bolter in AA, but I assume that's implied.

How is it a nerf to go to Artificer Armour? It’s the same save either way with his stock Iron Halo. As you noted, the only real difference is that in TDA he has an option to exchange a Storm Bolter for either an Incinerator or Psycannon, and wouldn’t have that opportunity in Articifer Armour, but I think the access to the Personal Teleporter more than outweighs that small opportunity cost. Since Jump Packs are now +15 points for comparable characters in other codices, I could be talked into dropping the PT to +20 for Brother-Captains and Brotherhood Champions.

Brother-Captain Arvann Stern

• Brother-Captain Arvann Stern has The Grand Strategy
• One of Brother-Captain Stern’s psychic powers will always be Vortex of Doom, from the Sanctic Daemonology discipline table; roll for his other power as normal.
• Brother-Captain Stern still has The Strands of Fate special rule.

I agree with jbat360. Stern is a captain and so shouldn't have TGS.

You may have seen my earlier response, but the background on Stern is that he’s been offered promotion to Grand Master and continues to turn it down. That tells me that he deserves the Grand Master characteristics (which he has) including special rules based on experience, not position. Thus, I’d still give him TGS to set him further apart from the other generic Brother Captains, and finally make him worthwhile as a special character, which he has never been.

Castellan Garran Crowe

• Castellan Garran Crowe becomes an Independent Character, but may only be attached to a unit of Grey Knights Purifiers.
• Castellan Crowe carries the Blade of Antwyr (secured to his back a la Cypher), but fights with an Anointed Blade.
• Enemy models in a unit that assaults Castellan Crowe still get Furious Charge and re-roll failed To Hit roll against him, and any unit he has joined, in that Assault phase.
• Castellan Crowe gains a base of 4 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.

I couldn't agree more. Provided he still unlocks purifiers as troops. I dont see anything wrong with double (or tripple) tapping cleansing flame

Yes, he’d still unlock Purifiers as Troops. Where rules weren’t changed, I mostly didn’t repeat them; I just tried to point out the adjustments, rather than mention everything related to each entry.

Brotherhood Champion

• Brotherhood Champions get an additional Wound (i.e. 2W).
• Brotherhood Champions gain a base of 3 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• If a Brother-Captain is in the army list, a Brotherhood Champion may be taken without filling an FOC slot.
• Look out, Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any Brotherhood Champion in a unit, regardless of whether he is the nearest model, and he automatically passes any Glorious Intervention attempts.

One of the stances (Rapier Strike) gives the B-C 1D3 attacks at initiative 10! What if instead of a base number of attacks he rolls 1D3+1 so an avarage of 3 instead of 2. Crowe could be 1D3+2 or 2D3 to keep his average at 4. As challenges now roll over to the squad then any wounds that are allocated to an IC (as per the Rapier Strike stance) could roll over to the unit too.

I just wanted to provide a simpler option for when either the Brotherhood Champion or Crowe were just fighting regular non-character opponents as a part of a unit. The Perfect Warrior battle stances are terrific when fighting Independent Characters, or when surrounded by a group of enemy models all in base contact, but does a poor job of reflecting a master swordsman attacking with a unit, when in base contact with perhaps only a single enemy model. I am convinced that they need to be able to turn the battle stances off and attack ‘normally’ when the situation dictates that the stances are not optimal.

Librarian

• Price drop to o/a 115 points base.

TBH i think that's too low. Its the same as a ML2 SM libby in TDA but we have some better rules and we dont perils on any double for santic powers. I'm thinking 120 points but its only a small difference.

That’s fair; I could go for 120, certainly.

[Valerian]

Techmarine

• Price drop to o/a 50 points base.
• Does not occupy an FOC slot, but otherwise counts as an Elites choice.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +20 points.

A techmarine with a PT? Where's his servo harness going to go? Also maybe a limit of 0-3 per detachment or 1-3 count as a single elites choice or something.

Admittedly, I didn’t spent too much time thinking through the Techmarine, but as the character who is supposed to be the most tech-savvy, I thought access to the Teleporter was appropriate. Perhaps an even trade to turn in the Servo Harness to get the Personal Teleporter, that seems fair enough. I could also definitely go with a limitation to the number allowed in an army, and would suggest one Techmarine available per HQ selection (so usually a cap of two). What are your thoughts?

Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)

• A Grand Master can automatically Lo,S! to a Paladin.
• Paladins gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• The Apothecary upgrade cost is reduced to +25 points.
• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Paladin units.

Apothecary for 25 points is an auto include. Considering its going to be saving around 275 points around 1/3 of the time at least 50 points to match the Sang Priest should suffice. Although personally I think 75 points is worth it.

The Apothecary might be an auto-include, but the Paladins really, badly, need some assistance with survivability to be viable in 7e. Also, remember that Sanguinary Priests are indeed base cost 50 points, but that the Apothecary is an upgrade option to an existing Paladin, so his base cost is actually now 80 points, and he forfeits his storm bolter. A Sanguinary Priest in Terminator Armour is 85 points, but he is an Independent Character and can go anywhere in the army, and grants FNP and Furious Charge to every unit within 6”, whereas the Grey Knights Apothecary only grants FNP to his unit. I think the 25 point upgrade cost that I suggested is more than fair and appropriate.

Grey Knight Terminator Squad

• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Grey Knights Terminator squads.
• Grey Knights Terminator squads gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

Terminators never had a special power so I don't see why they need one now.

They need access to the Sanctuary power to improve their survivability, as well, and thus likewise improve their internal balance against Strike Squads. There is a great thread here in the forum that is discussing this exact issue, as the Terminators only out-perform their Strike counterparts in very specific instances (against AP3 attacks only).

Strike Squad

• Strike Squads gain both Scout and Infiltrate special rules.
• The Strike Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

Considering that half of the army can DS turn one, I think scouting/infiltrating the remaining strikes would be akin to a pre-emptive strike. With persistant skulls which work on turn one all over the board then a locator beacon on a unit which might not be in the right place at the right time is going to be situational, for +15 you can buy a few more skulls.

True, but at least you would have the option to upgrade to have a Teleport Homer available if you wanted it. Also, this mixture of option gear and special abilities (i.e. Scout and Infiltrate) fits the fluff of these squads exceptionally well.

Purgation Squad

• Purgation Squads gain the Relentless special rule.

I agree with GML in that they should have the option to acquire TDA. Ironic considering he was against my idea in the first place Perhaps limit the number of melee weapons to 1/5 or 2/5 or make the special weapons 4/5 instead of 4/5-10.

I’m still not convinced that Purgators should be in TDA, and prefer to be more conservative here, sticking with how the unit has been presented for the last two codices.

Purifier Squad

• Purifier Squads only get 1 Special Weapon per 5 models, rather than 2.

Nooooooooooo. I would rather they gave up cleansing flame. I don't know why they're the only ones to get a free power. I know it's a nerf but its making them OP and every list crams in as many as possible.

For all of the buff recommendations throughout the post, there needs to be nerfs where those are appropriate. This is one that I think is entirely justified, as the Purifiers start to step on the toes of their Purgator brethren by having a similar ability to spam the special ranged weapons. This move might be unpopular, but would also benefit the internal balance of the codex by taking an advantage away from an otherwise exceptional in every possible way type of unit.

Nemesis Dreadknight

• Dreadknights gain psyk-out grenade launchers.
• A Nemesis Daemon Hammer carried by a Dreadknight strikes at AP1.
• The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.
• A Nemesis Dreadknight may take a Personal Teleporter for +40 points.
• The Nemesis Greatsword is a Specialist Weapon (like the Doomfist and Daemon Hammer) which attacks at I+2 and S: User. The Greatsword still allows rerolls to all failed To Hit, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls.

Are you saying that I cant use the Doomfist to get S10 rerolls because if the doomfist is a specialist weapon then it would give another +1A anyway? I think to gain rerolls it must sacrifice its strength, providing the hammer can also be bought which would give those bonuses back to make a melee beast. I also think the hammer should be flesh and/or armour bane because have you seen the size of it, yet it has the same rule as a petty hammer.

So, what I’m saying is that all three close combat weapons are Specialist, which means they all complement each other in any combination to grant the extra attack for having an off-hand weapon; this means that no matter which weapons you chose, the Nemesis Dreadknight will have a base of 4 Attacks (5 on the charge).

I assume the rule is still somewhere in The Rules, that states that if you have more than one special close combat weapon, that you have to pick which one you are using, so this will force the owner to chose his advantages for each turn. If he picks:

Attack with a Nemesis Doomfist, then he gets S10, AP2 attacks.

Attack with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer, then he gets S10, AP1, Concussive attacks.

Attack with Nemesis Greatsword, then he gets S6, AP2 attacks, that reroll all failed To Hits, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls (and the Strength of the attacks can be improved by successfully casting Hammerhand).

I could certainly see improving the Dreadknight’s Nemesis Daemon Hammer further to include Fleshbane and/or Armourbane, but it’s points cost would need to shoot up to at least a +25 upgrade for all of those advantages.

Dreadnought

• Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.

Venerable Dreadnought

• Venerable Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.
• Venerable Dreadnoughts are Psychic Mastery Level 2, and have access to only the Santic Daemonology discipline table.

I like the upgrades, but isn't that very similar to the dreadknight without the PT (I heard that's an option). With Av13 as GML suggested it would be more resilient than the NDK too (i think).

I don’t think that’d be much of an issue, with the huge difference in how you’d play the two.

Brotherhood Banner

• Units with a Brotherhood Banner may reroll any failed dice rolls on the Psychic Power activation check for Force, in addition to granting an extra Attack per model in close combat.

Servo Skulls

• Cannot be removed from play.

Psilencers

• Wounds from Psilencers ignore Invulnerable saves.

Do Do Do Dut Dooo... I'm Loving it. I like the no invul thing on psilencers but fear we will completely dominate daemons.

Well, we pretty much dominate Daemons anyway, but it shouldn’t be too bad, really. For every psilencer selected, that’s one less psycannon, or even incinerator, so there is still a pretty big opportunity cost just to take a weapon that really only has a single application.

Nemesis Force Falchions

• Any model equipped with Nemesis Force Falchions gains +2 Attacks in close combat.

Join us...

I wasn't expecting to critique everything, but there ya go.

Not a problem. I appreciate your thoughtful input, and will make some of the changes that are justified in a few days, when I get back from a quick work trip.

V

[thraxdown]

A purgation squad with relentless would be absolutely killer.

[Captain Coolpants]

Our Dreads are 15 points more expensive, when the rest of our vehicles are only 5 more.[]

 

 

You gotta take into consideration that the dreadnoughts pay more to be a psychic pilot because they can activate their force in the doomfist and insta death stuff. Where as the other vehicle can only make a minor buff. So they kinda need to more expensive.

[Gentlemanloser]

Here Although looking at it again I dont think you were talking about the purgation squads (after the first sentacne of course).

Ah!

I wasn't saying it was a bad idea. Quite the contrary!

Just mentioning that I'm, sure the reason our Purg's are in PA (and not as the fluff would back, TDA) only becuase GW would balk at giving a 'dev' squad Relentless.

Even though Logan can do it for a Squad of Long Fangs...

Generally, however, the Grey Knights need a viable Teleport Attack rule, as many have pointed out already for various reasons to include both fluff and crunch.

Have Teleport Attack be a rule only for units in TDA or Interceptors.

Strikes can Scout/Infiltrate, and Purifiers don't get any. Stick them in a Storm Raven.

You gotta take into consideration that the dreadnoughts pay more to be a psychic pilot because they can activate their force in the doomfist and insta death stuff. Where as the other vehicle can only make a minor buff. So they kinda need to more expensive.

How much are Librarian Furiosos?

[Jolemai]

£28.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(175 points, no upgrades allowed)

[Gentlemanloser]

Nice.

 

Not too far off the Ven then.  Maybe make our Ven equal the 175.  Although it should probably be a bit cheaper, as the Bangle Dread is still a slightly outdated cost.

 

 

 

Attack with Nemesis Greatsword, then he gets S6, AP2 attacks, that reroll all failed To Hits, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls (and the Strength of the attacks can be improved by successfully casting Hammerhand).

 

Could you smash with the Greatsword for S10, AP2 with rerolls?

[Adeptus]

I think:

 

Dreadknights wreck some serious face, and even if they had to use S6 with their Nemesis Greatsword, they will still wreck serious face because they still have access to Hammerhand, or they can simply use their 'other' fist for S10 attacks. A points reduction here isn't warranted.

 

Teleport Attack:

 

I think this should apply to models in TDA only. Can you imagine Purifiers combat squading, deep striking, then popping Cleansing Flame? With a 1D6 scatter from the Servo Skulls? That's one hell of an alpha strike! Also, it serves to differentiate Terminators and Strike squads.

 

Purifiers:

 

They should definitely lose the extra Psycannons. I was blown away to see that an assault style unit could take four Psycannon. Crazy. I think they should also be allowed to deep strike if they want. I think all Grey Knights should be able to deepstrike.

 

Purgation Squads:

 

What are these even for? I can get Psycannons in literally every other unit in the army. This unit needs to give me something I can't get elsewhere. Like Purifiers, I think they should be able to deepstrike because it makes no sense why some PA units can, and others can't, and I think with the Teleport Attack rule that having an all-deepstriking army should be an option. How to improve Purgation squads? I don't know. Maybe let them take Heavy Psycannon for some anti-horde measures (although we hardly need them) or let them take some other kind of weapon. Conversion Beamers have been suggested, but I'd be happy with plain old generic heavy weapons. Plasma cannons, Lascannons, etc. I don't know. But they need to be something different to what they are.

 

Banners:

 

I love the idea of them allowing a re-roll for Force.

 

Servo Skulls: With Teleport Assault these bad boys are much more useful. If you want to make them immortal they need a points increase. I don't think 20 points per model would be out of the question.

[Captain Coolpants]

Agreed servo skulls would need a point increase. 15/20 points is fair I'd say, because homing becons are that much.

 

And with this whole first turn deepstrike thing (that I strongly AGREE with), fluff wise only strike squads and interceptors should get it. It actually says in their description that they are the vanguard that teleport exactly where they need to be before anyone else. Plus this stops any first turn terminator/paladin tarpits or purifier flame bombs of doom! :-P

With the exception of a mordrac with 1 single squad of whatever choice that can deepstrike.

And I agree that purgation squads need something different, relentless would be pretty badass, or maybe a spin on astral aim that increases range to 36"? would make them more of a heavy choice then

[Gentlemanloser]

I can dig that. :)

 

Instead of stepping on the Deathwings toes, give our First Turn DS to Strikes Squads (With the only exception being Mordrak).

 

Let the TDA come in turns after off the Strikes Homers.

[Adeptus]

I can dig that.

Instead of stepping on the Deathwings toes, give our First Turn DS to Strikes Squads (With the only exception being Mordrak).

Let the TDA come in turns after off the Strikes Homers.

I see where you're both coming from. Personally, I prefer the idea of the Tip of His Spear being TDA Grey Knights. I feel like their heavier armour and more advanced weapon systems are more suited to that kind of vanguard strike, but I can see where the fluff for the GK might go the other way. Personally, I'd prefer to see the fluff changed so that the TDA Knights are the alpha strikers while the Strike squads are quick reserves, used to bolster weak points and tip the balance in favour of the other troops.

Apart from that, I feel like Strike squads are already simply better than TDA knights in too many ways. For the same (or very similar) points you get twice as many bodies, twice as many Stormbolter shots, twice as many psycannon shots (when stationary) and the same number of psycannon shots while moving. You also get two Objective Secured units instead of one, and you can take transports for them as well. I think also giving them the ability to deep strike on turn one would mean that Strikes completely eclipse Terminators.

[Quozzo]

I can dig that.

Instead of stepping on the Deathwings toes, give our First Turn DS to Strikes Squads (With the only exception being Mordrak).

Let the TDA come in turns after off the Strikes Homers.

It will be stepping off DA DW toes and onto any other SM with pods, including DA. If we have skulls then there is no need to get strikes in first with homers and no matter what option we take, either DS TDA or PAGK then we will be mimicking the mechanics of another SM 'dex. We are an SM 'dex so I say we get the best of both worlds and are able to DS both (but half of) our TDA and PAGK. Perhaps make it a choice, either models in TDA or PA can DS at turn one.

[Gentlemanloser]

It will be stepping off DA DW toes and onto any other SM with pods, including DA.

Except we don't get Pods, and don't have the security from mishap they provide.

We have to ask, why would the GK use Strike Squads? If every GK has access to TDA, and Intercpetors only use PA becuase Personal Teleports can't work with TDA (what a crap mcguffin. Can't work with TDA becuase it's too big, but can work with a NDK. Which is smaller?), then *why* would the GK choose to put any other Troops into PA over TDA?

They would need to be more Mobile, and access to a Rhino doesn't cut it. Scout/Infiltrate (which is globally denied to the Bulky TDA) would be a reasonable excuse.

Plus it fits with the playtest design of Strike (in absence from the final 'dex).

The Grey Knights are known for surgical *bamph* strikes (see Armageddon), heavy armour TDA appearing in the thick of battle, after the fight has started, and laying the pain. First turn alpha strikes (while awesome from a gaming pov) with TDA don't really fit that image. We could leave that to the Deathwing.

Apart from that, I feel like Strike squads are already simply better than TDA knights in too many ways.

Thats a mechanics issue of TDA not providing enough survivability over PA, and Terminators being over costed.

Imagine if our GKT (like SW) cost 33 points each.

A much more interesting prospect to a 20 point Striker.

[Valerian]

How about this combination of rules, then:

 

1. All Grey Knights non-vehicle models have Deep Strike.

 

2. All Terminator and Strike squads arrive in the first Turn, if held in Reserves and deploying via Deep Strike.

 

3. Any Independent Characters with the Deep Strike rule that join a Terminator or Strike squad prior to deployment may also arrive with them in the first Turn.

 

4. Strike Squad Justicars get the +15 point Teleport Homer upgrade option.

 

5. Servo Skulls are persistent, and cost +15 points each.

 

6. No change to Mordrak's First to the Fray rule.

 

 

What do y'all think?