Fixing Grey Knights for 7th Edition

[Rurik the blessed]

How about this combination of rules, then:

 

1. All Grey Knights non-vehicle models have Deep Strike.

 

2. All Terminator and Strike squads arrive in the first Turn, if held in Reserves and deploying via Deep Strike.

 

3. Any Independent Characters with the Deep Strike rule that join a Terminator or Strike squad prior to deployment may also arrive with them in the first Turn.

 

4. Strike Squad Justicars get the +15 point Teleport Homer upgrade option.

 

5. Servo Skulls are persistent, and cost +15 points each.

 

6. No change to Mordrak's First to the Fray rule.

 

 

What do y'all think?

 

Definety not...

that woud be too much Over Power to us... imagine 6 squads of purifiers deepstriking in enemy face. casting NOVA ... you will win in the first turn... nobody would want to play against GK

[Quozzo]

 

It will be stepping off DA DW toes and onto any other SM with pods, including DA.

 

Except we don't get Pods, and don't have the security from mishap they provide.

 

They're still DS in PA guys. They can even DS their tacticals but we have to make do with rolling/flying up purifiers in a vehicle. The pod is only for fluff, skulls make it better and we have the option of not needing to give away first blood. You could easily come up with some sort of fluffy reason why our teleporters don't materialize people in solid rock.

 

2. All Terminator and Strike squads arrive in the first Turn, if held in Reserves and deploying via Deep Strike.

Deepstriking all will be too much to. Currently the philiosphy is you deep strike half of your army you wipe out half of theirs and then their remainig half decimates your half, leaving you both with half. DS all of our list will top it in our favour.

[Gentlemanloser]

Would taht be half the TDA/Strikes?  Or half of all units held in reserves?

 

Val, I'd probably facilitate this via a Special rule.

 

"I am the Hammer"

 

Give it to Mordrak/TDA/Strikes.  And have any (or half) unit with "I am the Hammer" come in first turn via DS.

 

(I am the tip of his spear would be a little too suggestive!)

[Valerian]

 

 

How about this combination of rules, then:

 

1. All Grey Knights non-vehicle models have Deep Strike.

 

2. All Terminator and Strike squads arrive in the first Turn, if held in Reserves and deploying via Deep Strike.

 

3. Any Independent Characters with the Deep Strike rule that join a Terminator or Strike squad prior to deployment may also arrive with them in the first Turn.

 

4. Strike Squad Justicars get the +15 point Teleport Homer upgrade option.

 

5. Servo Skulls are persistent, and cost +15 points each.

 

6. No change to Mordrak's First to the Fray rule.

 

 

What do y'all think?

Definety not...

that woud be too much Over Power to us... imagine 6 squads of purifiers deepstriking in enemy face. casting NOVA ... you will win in the first turn... nobody would want to play against GK

Look through the list again, Purifiers don't get to arrive in the first turn, but rather on regular Reserve rolls (so, randomly from Turns 2-4). Only regular GK Terminator squads and Strike squads arrive First turn, and neither of those have anything especially threatening for an 'Alpha Strike' force. Certainly not OP when compared to Wolf Guard Terminators and Grey Hunters loaded down with Plasma and Melta in risk-free Drop Pods.

[Valerian]

Would taht be half the TDA/Strikes? Or half of all units held in reserves?

My original suggestion was half of all Deep Strikers arrive Turn 1, but I got some pushback on that to change to only GKT and Strikes qualify for Turn 1. If it's going to be limited to only those to types of units, then it probably ought to be all GKT and Strikes, and not just half, otherwise the few units that come in first will be drastically exposed.

 

Val, I'd probably facilitate this via a Special rule.

 

"I am the Hammer"

 

Give it to Mordrak/TDA/Strikes. And have any (or half) unit with "I am the Hammer" come in first turn via DS.

 

(I am the tip of his spear would be a little too suggestive!)

I was going to do exactly this, but call it.... First to the Fray ;) changing that rule to no longer have the pinpoint precision feature that it currently has.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

My original suggestion was half of all Deep Strikers arrive Turn 1, but I got some pushback on that to change to only GKT and Strikes qualify for Turn 1. If it's going to be limited to only those to types of units, then it probably ought to be all GKT and Strikes, and not just half, otherwise the few units that come in first will be drastically exposed.

 

Well, I'd be tempted to create a full TDA (or TDA/Strike) list, to be able to DS my entire army first turn. ;)

 

I think that's the objection.

[Valerian]

Might just have to go back to all can Deep Strike, but only Mordrak in Turn 1. Still give Strikes Infiltrate and Scout, and access to Teleport Homers. No real 'Alpha Strike' but we want it to be balanced.

[Gentlemanloser]

How about an option for The Grand Strategy to give 1-3 units "First to the Fray"?

[Valerian]

Genius!

[Gentlemanloser]

:D

 

Playing games for 38 years has rubbed off a little. ;)

[Quozzo]

• Psybolt Ammunition: all non-vehicle Grey Knights models with storm bolters can upgrade to Psybolt Ammunition for +2 points per model.

I quite like juggling between using it on a full squad then to combat squad them or needing to fulfill the 2 troop choices. But it's balanced I suppose.

Hopefully this will be better balanced. As it stands, on squads the Psybolt Ammunition upgrade option punishes Characters (5 points each!) and smaller units, while it favors maxed squads. I feel that a blanket “per model” charge of 2 points each is more than fair, and we’d see more use across the army.

More use? Who doesn't leave home without psybolts, except ICs of course. Since their options are separate from squads you could just alter theirs independently

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 1).

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he must be attached to a Grey Knights unit with the Deep Strike rule, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are not purchased as a unit prior to the game, but are spawned whenever Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process); they are simply added to whatever unit Morkrak is currently attached to, if any.
• If Mordrak leaves a unit, any Ghost Knights go with him, and must maintain 2” coherency at all times.
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, then any Ghost Knights are removed as well.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +25 points to offset these improvements.

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

• Mordrak becomes an Independent Character; he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights, and must be deployed in the first turn, in accordance with the Teleport Attack rule, above.
• Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).
• Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).
• If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.
• Increase Mordrak’s points cost by o/a +15 points to offset these improvements.

So 25 points to become an IC or 15 points to not have the ghost knights die when Mordrak does. As all units can deepstrike on turn one there really isn't a choice anymore. So Mordrak doesn't scatter but with persistent skulls it's now half the risk. With Blood Angels' Decent of Angels its not a risk.

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to get across here. Do you prefer one option over the other, or neither of the two courses of action? If neither, can you be more clear on why, and make recommended adjustments to what I’ve proposed?

As the new rule is that all units can Deep Strike on turn one, or whatever the hell it is now. Giving one model IC status to join a squad so they deep strike on turn one isn't that great compared to not having your 200+ points of ghost knights die when Mordrak does.

Grey Knight Brother-Captain

• A Brother-Captain may choose to exchange his Terminator Armour for Articifer Armour for free.
• If in Articifer Armour, he may select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• A Brother-Captain may upgrade his Mastery Level to ML2 for +25 points.

Changes to AA for free, which is nerfing him. I think he should either start in AA and upgrade to TDA or his AA comes with a PT. Either way he cant upgrade his storm bolter in AA, but I assume that's implied.

How is it a nerf to go to Artificer Armour? It’s the same save either way with his stock Iron Halo. As you noted, the only real difference is that in TDA he has an option to exchange a Storm Bolter for either an Incinerator or Psycannon, and wouldn’t have that opportunity in Articifer Armour, but I think the access to the Personal Teleporter more than outweighs that small opportunity cost. Since Jump Packs are now +15 points for comparable characters in other codices, I could be talked into dropping the PT to +20 for Brother-Captains and Brotherhood Champions.

He can't deep strike or carry a ranged and melee weapon without upgrading. I feel there needs to be a genuine reason to take him in artificer armour rather than only taking up 1 slot in transports. Starting him in AA and then upgrading to terminator armour seems like the best approach.

Brother-Captain Arvann Stern

• Brother-Captain Arvann Stern has The Grand Strategy
• One of Brother-Captain Stern’s psychic powers will always be Vortex of Doom, from the Sanctic Daemonology discipline table; roll for his other power as normal.
• Brother-Captain Stern still has The Strands of Fate special rule.

I agree with jbat360. Stern is a captain and so shouldn't have TGS.

You may have seen my earlier response, but the background on Stern is that he’s been offered promotion to Grand Master and continues to turn it down. That tells me that he deserves the Grand Master characteristics (which he has) including special rules based on experience, not position. Thus, I’d still give him TGS to set him further apart from the other generic Brother Captains, and finally make him worthwhile as a special character, which he has never been.

I did see your post, but I still agree with jbat. Allowing a captain to take TGS only further blurs the line between captain and grand master. From a fluff perspective he wouldn't have the authority to overrule a GM anyway. I think we need to come up with a whole new set of rules for the captain because currently there is no reason to take them, and thus Stern.

Brotherhood Champion

• Brotherhood Champions get an additional Wound (i.e. 2W).
• Brotherhood Champions gain a base of 3 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.
• If a Brother-Captain is in the army list, a Brotherhood Champion may be taken without filling an FOC slot.
• Look out, Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any Brotherhood Champion in a unit, regardless of whether he is the nearest model, and he automatically passes any Glorious Intervention attempts.

One of the stances (Rapier Strike) gives the B-C 1D3 attacks at initiative 10! What if instead of a base number of attacks he rolls 1D3+1 so an avarage of 3 instead of 2. Crowe could be 1D3+2 or 2D3 to keep his average at 4. As challenges now roll over to the squad then any wounds that are allocated to an IC (as per the Rapier Strike stance) could roll over to the unit too.

I just wanted to provide a simpler option for when either the Brotherhood Champion or Crowe were just fighting regular non-character opponents as a part of a unit. The Perfect Warrior battle stances are terrific when fighting Independent Characters, or when surrounded by a group of enemy models all in base contact, but does a poor job of reflecting a master swordsman attacking with a unit, when in base contact with perhaps only a single enemy model. I am convinced that they need to be able to turn the battle stances off and attack ‘normally’ when the situation dictates that the stances are not optimal.

Oh I agree, but instead of saying just ignore the stances I was trying to incorporate them into it by increasing the number of attacks for Rapier Strike as its pretty good. maybe add an addendum to Rapier Strike that if no ICs are present then the wounds can be allocated as per the normal rules.

Techmarine

• Price drop to o/a 50 points base.
• Does not occupy an FOC slot, but otherwise counts as an Elites choice.
• May select a Personal Teleporter for +20 points.

A techmarine with a PT? Where's his servo harness going to go? Also maybe a limit of 0-3 per detachment or 1-3 count as a single elites choice or something.

Admittedly, I didn’t spent too much time thinking through the Techmarine, but as the character who is supposed to be the most tech-savvy, I thought access to the Teleporter was appropriate. Perhaps an even trade to turn in the Servo Harness to get the Personal Teleporter, that seems fair enough. I could also definitely go with a limitation to the number allowed in an army, and would suggest one Techmarine available per HQ selection (so usually a cap of two). What are your thoughts?

The number of techmarines I take depends on the number of landraiders and storm ravens I take . Putting a cap on the number of techmarines under that of the possible limit of land raiders would limit those sorts of lists even further, especially if landraiders become dedicated transports (or can be chosen as dedicated transports for termies. What would be the reason to take a techmarine with a PT? IIRC the conversion beamer replaces the servo harness so he cant use both of those and without the harness he is useless in melee and shooting as he only has strike squad profile.

[Quozzo]

Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)

• A Grand Master can automatically Lo,S! to a Paladin.
• Paladins gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.
• The Apothecary upgrade cost is reduced to +25 points.
• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Paladin units.

Apothecary for 25 points is an auto include. Considering its going to be saving around 275 points around 1/3 of the time at least 50 points to match the Sang Priest should suffice. Although personally I think 75 points is worth it.

The Apothecary might be an auto-include, but the Paladins really, badly, need some assistance with survivability to be viable in 7e. Also, remember that Sanguinary Priests are indeed base cost 50 points, but that the Apothecary is an upgrade option to an existing Paladin, so his base cost is actually now 80 points, and he forfeits his storm bolter. A Sanguinary Priest in Terminator Armour is 85 points, but he is an Independent Character and can go anywhere in the army, and grants FNP and Furious Charge to every unit within 6”, whereas the Grey Knights Apothecary only grants FNP to his unit. I think the 25 point upgrade cost that I suggested is more than fair and appropriate.

I'm not objecting to 25 points. I just think he is worth a lot more (like 50 points more )

Grey Knight Terminator Squad

• All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Grey Knights Terminator squads.
• Grey Knights Terminator squads gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

Terminators never had a special power so I don't see why they need one now.

They need access to the Sanctuary power to improve their survivability, as well, and thus likewise improve their internal balance against Strike Squads. There is a great thread here in the forum that is discussing this exact issue, as the Terminators only out-perform their Strike counterparts in very specific instances (against AP3 attacks only).

They can shoot twice as many psycannon shots and have the same number of attacks in melee and are more survivable than you give them credit for. Even AP2 can be prevented with their inv save. Not so for strikes. Saying that though I do feel they're overpriced. Not just ours but game wide. Ours a probably the best points per power ratio.

Strike Squad

• Strike Squads gain both Scout and Infiltrate special rules.
• The Strike Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

Considering that half of the army can DS turn one, I think scouting/infiltrating the remaining strikes would be akin to a pre-emptive strike. With persistant skulls which work on turn one all over the board then a locator beacon on a unit which might not be in the right place at the right time is going to be situational, for +15 you can buy a few more skulls.

True, but at least you would have the option to upgrade to have a Teleport Homer available if you wanted it. Also, this mixture of option gear and special abilities (i.e. Scout and Infiltrate) fits the fluff of these squads exceptionally well.

It mentions strikes deep striking to secure objectives, not sneaking up on someone. I'd be fine with just scout, but that also deteriorates the usefulness of TGS. You claim strikes are better than termies and then make them even more so. Its the dreaded power inflation.

Purgation Squad

• Purgation Squads gain the Relentless special rule.

I agree with GML in that they should have the option to acquire TDA. Ironic considering he was against my idea in the first place Perhaps limit the number of melee weapons to 1/5 or 2/5 or make the special weapons 4/5 instead of 4/5-10.

I’m still not convinced that Purgators should be in TDA, and prefer to be more conservative here, sticking with how the unit has been presented for the last two codices.

Giving them relentless is just giving them a rule for the sake of it. It cant even be justified by as a psychic power as GW took all our unique powers away. If purifiers only get 1 psycannon then getting four on purgators and combat squading them could be enticing. Or give every 4 our of 5 the option to upgrade instead of 4 in 10

Purifier Squad

• Purifier Squads only get 1 Special Weapon per 5 models, rather than 2.

Nooooooooooo. I would rather they gave up cleansing flame. I don't know why they're the only ones to get a free power. I know it's a nerf but its making them OP and every list crams in as many as possible.

For all of the buff recommendations throughout the post, there needs to be nerfs where those are appropriate. This is one that I think is entirely justified, as the Purifiers start to step on the toes of their Purgator brethren by having a similar ability to spam the special ranged weapons. This move might be unpopular, but would also benefit the internal balance of the codex by taking an advantage away from an otherwise exceptional in every possible way type of unit.

Nemesis Dreadknight

• Dreadknights gain psyk-out grenade launchers.
• A Nemesis Daemon Hammer carried by a Dreadknight strikes at AP1.
• The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.
• A Nemesis Dreadknight may take a Personal Teleporter for +40 points.
• The Nemesis Greatsword is a Specialist Weapon (like the Doomfist and Daemon Hammer) which attacks at I+2 and S: User. The Greatsword still allows rerolls to all failed To Hit, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls.

Are you saying that I cant use the Doomfist to get S10 rerolls because if the doomfist is a specialist weapon then it would give another +1A anyway? I think to gain rerolls it must sacrifice its strength, providing the hammer can also be bought which would give those bonuses back to make a melee beast. I also think the hammer should be flesh and/or armour bane because have you seen the size of it, yet it has the same rule as a petty hammer.

So, what I’m saying is that all three close combat weapons are Specialist, which means they all complement each other in any combination to grant the extra attack for having an off-hand weapon; this means that no matter which weapons you chose, the Nemesis Dreadknight will have a base of 4 Attacks (5 on the charge).

I assume the rule is still somewhere in The Rules, that states that if you have more than one special close combat weapon, that you have to pick which one you are using, so this will force the owner to chose his advantages for each turn. If he picks:

Attack with a Nemesis Doomfist, then he gets S10, AP2 attacks.

Attack with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer, then he gets S10, AP1, Concussive attacks.

Attack with Nemesis Greatsword, then he gets S6, AP2 attacks, that reroll all failed To Hits, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls (and the Strength of the attacks can be improved by successfully casting Hammerhand).

I could certainly see improving the Dreadknight’s Nemesis Daemon Hammer further to include Fleshbane and/or Armourbane, but it’s points cost would need to shoot up to at least a +25 upgrade for all of those advantages.

The hammers only advantage is increasing the AP to 1 as the NDK already has doomfists as standard making the hammer currently worthless. Doomfists can't activate "Force" however as they follow the rules for DCCW. Not sure what to do with the hammer though. It needs something but not sure what.

These post are getting huge, I see why you used two now >.<

[Quozzo]

How about an option for The Grand Strategy to give 1-3 units "First to the Fray"?

Sometimes I wonder if people read my posts

[Captain Coolpants]

Nemesis hammers/dreadnought doomfist can both activate force because they are both 'nemesis' weapons, the codex clearly says all 'nemesis' weapons are force weapons, therefore current, any dreadnought/dreadknight (being psykers) gain the force power, which can be used with any nemesis weapons. I.e, the nemesis greatsword, nemesis doomfist, nemesis daemon hammer.

[Captain Coolpants]

Although the dreadnoughts ccw and thunder hammer both follow the rulebook rules for 'the basics', they still adhere to the codex wording giving them force.

[Gentlemanloser]

LoL! was it a suggestion?  I'll totally apologize for missing it, and nicking it by accident. ;)

[Quozzo]

Nemesis hammers/dreadnought doomfist can both activate force because they are both 'nemesis' weapons, the codex clearly says all 'nemesis' weapons are force weapons, therefore current, any dreadnought/dreadknight (being psykers) gain the force power, which can be used with any nemesis weapons. I.e, the nemesis greatsword, nemesis doomfist, nemesis daemon hammer.

The nemesis doom fist just acts like a DCCW, that's why the nemesis deamon hammer has its own profile in the FAQ as its intended to be a thunder hammer with nemesis (force & daemonbane) but only says it acts as a thunderhammer. The greatsword doesn't act like another weapon so that would be eligible for nemesis. If the NDK took the hammer then it could activate that too as it has its new profile in the FAQ.

LoL! was it a suggestion? I'll totally apologize for missing it, and nicking it by accident.

Ah it's cool. Great minds think alike!

[Captain Coolpants]

But the doomfist description says it has nemesis circuitry, and the actual page says all nemesis weapons have force. Seems self explanatory to me. Maybe they only felt the need to include the separate profile for the hammer because people kept asking because they weren't reading it properly? Just seems silly that they make the hammer the only exception when they both said use the rulebook rules, especially considering that the Hanmer is more powerful as it's basically a fist with concussive.

I'm not saying you're wrong mind, I'm just saying how myself and my friends interpreted it.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Nemesis Doomfist is still a Force Weapon though. It also has Daemonbane.

Edit: There was a time (end of 5th IIRC) where our Doomfists didn't double our Strength. As 'Dreadnought' Close combat Weapons wouldn't modify the Strengh of a MC...

That was really the only time the Hammer was considered a worthy purchase.

6th changed how DCCW worked, and gave us S10 by default.

[Quozzo]

But the doomfist description says it has nemesis circuitry, and the actual page says all nemesis weapons have force. Seems self explanatory to me. Maybe they only felt the need to include the separate profile for the hammer because people kept asking because they weren't reading it properly? Just seems silly that they make the hammer the only exception when they both said use the rulebook rules, especially considering that the Hanmer is more powerful as it's basically a fist with concussive.

I'm not saying you're wrong mind, I'm just saying how myself and my friends interpreted it.

I agree that was the intention, but explicitly saying it follows the rules for DCCW makes any previous rules redundant, regardless of if the profile is located under the Nemesis weapons.

[Captain Coolpants]

I also just came from my local gw store and it turns out they had the same debate lol. But as it says all nemesis weapons are force, then the dreadnoughts/knights get it too! (why give it a new profile when it says it has force along with the usual rules) This could be considered a house rule though... But it's in writing in the book so it's fact to me.

[Gentlemanloser]

Check the "Further Abilities" box on page 54. ;)

 

Force and Daemonbane.  On top of the additional rules.

 

Which for a Doomfist is the DDCW rules.

[Captain Coolpants]

Check the "Further Abilities" box on page 54. ;)

 

Force and Daemonbane. On top of the additional rules.

 

Which for a Doomfist is the DDCW rules.

See even you agree with me haha.

I've always played the doomfist as a force weapon, and I will continue too. Unless it gets nerfed in the new dex :'(

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally!  I've Doomfisted many Talos' in my day. ;)

 

FALCON PUNCH!

[Captain Coolpants]

I remember the first time my lil dreadnought force punched a riptide in the crotch!

The look of sadness on my mates face haha. He basically ignored my lil dreadnought because he thought he'd smash it to death in CC (last edition). Ahhh Good times xD