Fixing Grey Knights for 7th Edition

[ravencrow]

 Having a first turn DS is a hard one for me to decide. DSing TDA and/or Strike Squads goes both ways with me. On the one hand you could possibly have your Objective Secured units scoring points on turn one, that's like a shunt unit scoring as well (without OS of coarse) witch seems fine, however, on the other hand on turn one you could only have your shunters alive do to the fact that you lost your 200+ point TDA and 120+ SS to deep strike mishaps. (I've done that with my  SM Vangaurd Vets, they scattered off the table in 5th when they were 250 pts w/power swords, a puppy died that day.) So I guess with lasting sevro skulls like some one suggested it sounds better, but, the sound of losing a game on the first turn is one I'd like not to hear. Big risk big gain I suppose.

 

 Also, does anyone have anything to say about psilencers? GK army lists never have them, EVER!  I think we all know why......they're weak and pointless!

 

 I'm thinking they should be the same points cost as psycannons, 36" range, AP-, salvo 3/6 and a str value equl to the targets toughness (kinna like grav) and pinning.

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Brother-Captain Ravencrow

[ravencrow]

i also forgot to add that as i do think the purge squad needs something i dont think its relentless. that wouldnt work with incerators would it. i think they need Conversion Beamers.

[Adeptus]

Having a first turn DS is a hard one for me to decide. DSing TDA and/or Strike Squads goes both ways with me. On the one hand you could possibly have your Objective Secured units scoring points on turn one, that's like a shunt unit scoring as well (without OS of coarse) witch seems fine, however, on the other hand on turn one you could only have your shunters alive do to the fact that you lost your 200+ point TDA and 120+ SS to deep strike mishaps. (I've done that with my  SM Vangaurd Vets, they scattered off the table in 5th when they were 250 pts w/power swords, a puppy died that day.) So I guess with lasting sevro skulls like some one suggested it sounds better, but, the sound of losing a game on the first turn is one I'd like not to hear. Big risk big gain I suppose.

I just think it would be nice to have that option. We could still footslog across the table if we wanted, but it would be nice to return to the days of 5th edition when we could keep our entire army in reserve, the same as other Marine armies can do now. It will never be like it was, when you could bring in half (or all!) of your army on turn 2-3, effectively wasting 2-3 turns of your opponents shooting, but you would still get the benefit of forcing your opponent to spread out to cover all angles, and if you manage to lose the first turn, then you deploy AFTER their first shooting phase. You'll still get shot at, but only once instead of twice, before you're in action.

 

 

Also, does anyone have anything to say about psilencers? GK army lists never have them, EVER!  I think we all know why......they're weak and pointless!

 

 I'm thinking they should be the same points cost as psycannons, 36" range, AP-, salvo 3/6 and a str value equl to the targets toughness (kinna like grav) and pinning.

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                  Brother-Captain Ravencrow

Psilencers are weird. They're just another mid range, lots-o-shots weapon, which the Grey Knights already have in spades. How can you make them better, yet still different to Psycannons?

 

I guess since they are mind-bullets, you could make them Assault weapons that always use their full ballistic skill when firing snap-shots or overwatch? I dunno. And finally, I think conversion beamers for Purgation squads would be cool. But maybe not four per squad, maybe just one or two?

[Quozzo]

Deepstriking on turn one is better than letting your opponent "waste" a turn as theyre actually getting to move, effectively their whole army gets a free scout move before your army comes in drips and drags, unless your DA.

 

Conversion beamers on purgators doesnt fit the fluff imo. Theyre technological wonders whereas psycannons, psilencers and psybolts (as the name suggests) are powered by the psyker. Incinerators on the other hand are different but their range is within the 24" sweet spot.

 

Something needs to change to the psilencers and/or psycannons for sure. I suggested changing the psilencer to strength to 5 as they will be better against horde armies upto a toughness of 4 and the psycannon will be better against a toughness of 5. Or create two profiles for the psilencer, similar to the psycannon like assault 3, heavy 6. Pinning would be good againt horde armies, while removing inv saves would increase their effectiveness againt the army their already designed for.

[Valerian]

What are your thoughts on this as an alternative?

 

Purgation Squad

• Astral Aim - All shots fired by a Purgation Squad have the Ignores Cover special rule.

 

Astral Aim would be a standard unit special rule; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

[Valerian]

and,

 

 

 

Grand Master and Brother-Captain

• Psychic Communion - Before deployment, a Grey Knights Grand Master or Brother-Captain  rolls a d3; the result is the number of units with the Deep Strike rule that may enter play in the Grey Knights' player's first turn.

 

Psychic Communion would also be a standard unit special rule for Grey Knights Grand Masters and Brother-Captains only; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

[Darkmagi]

I think the Psycanon should return to its old profile... s6 ap4 Heavy 3 36in Assault 3 18in and keep rending. Keep Incinerator the same and make the Psylincer s5 ap5 salvo 6 24in ignores invounrable. Also give all 3 daemon bane

[Captain Coolpants]

and,

 

 

 

Grand Master and Brother-Captain

 

• Psychic Communion - Before deployment, a Grey Knights Grand Master or Brother-Captain rolls a d3; the result is the number of units with the Deep Strike rule that may enter play in the Grey Knights' player's first turn.

Psychic Communion would also be a standard unit special rule for Grey Knights Grand Masters and Brother-Captains only; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

I actually think that's brilliant! Would stop abuse of the first turn deepstrike power by choosing to keep your whole army in reserve. But what if you had 2 captains? Would it stack? And does it replace grand strategy, or is it part of it? Or completely separate :-D

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye, both looking good Val :)

[Valerian]

 

and,

 

 

 

Grand Master and Brother-Captain

• Psychic Communion - Before deployment, a Grey Knights Grand Master or Brother-Captain rolls a d3; the result is the number of units with the Deep Strike rule that may enter play in the Grey Knights' player's first turn.

Psychic Communion would also be a standard unit special rule for Grey Knights Grand Masters and Brother-Captains only; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

 

I actually think that's brilliant! Would stop abuse of the first turn deepstrike power by choosing to keep your whole army in reserve. But what if you had 2 captains? Would it stack? And does it replace grand strategy, or is it part of it? Or completely separate :-D

 

It would stack, so 2d3 units if you had double GMs, double B-Cs, or one of each. You're paying big points for two HQ choices like that, and have the opportunity cost of not being able to take other HQ options, so I genuinely don't think this would be overpowered.

 

Completely separate from the Grand Strategy, so would be in addition to that if you selected a Grand Master.

[Captain Coolpants]

Sounds amazing to me! Would make mordrak a must for shock lists! He first turn deepstrikes anyway, + whatever you roll = pure awesomesauce :-P

[Quozzo]

Looks good. I always wondered why Tigurius keeps his Gifts of Prescience which is better then psychic communion yet all our characters lose it.

[Adeptus]

I like it a lot, but it doesn't have enough reliability for me. Previously we could keep our entire army in reserve, and most marine armies still can with drop pods, which are much more reliable than regular deep strike. I'd like it more if it were D3+2, or D3+1, or just the old "half the army, rounding up, may deepstrike in the first turn". You could even make it D3+2 (or one) up to a maximum of half the units held in reserve or half of the units in the army or something.

 

I just feel like we'd end up keeping three or four units in reserve, then only roll a 1 or 2 for Psychic Communion, and be left with our willies in the breeze as our units get picked off one by one. The point of a drop pod assault is that you get significant number of units on the table in turn one, which I don't think would be the case if we only used D3 units.

[Valerian]

I got significant push-back from the "half arrive in the first turn" idea, so reigned it back to this.  

[Adeptus]

I got significant push-back from the "half arrive in the first turn" idea, so reigned it back to this.

I don't think that push-back was at all warranted though.

[Valerian]

I've done some tweaking, based on feedback since the last drop.  

 

The Army

 

·      Deep Strike: all non-vehicle Grey Knights units have the Deep Strike special rule.

·      Psybolt Ammunition: all non-vehicle Grey Knights models with storm bolters can upgrade to Psybolt Ammunition for +2 points per model.

 

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

 

·      Mordrak becomes an Independent Character, although he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights; other Independent Characters may not join this unit.

·      Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).

·      Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

·      Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).

·      If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.

·      Psychic Communion- see below.

 

Grey Knight Grand Master

·       Psychic Communion - Before deployment, a Grey Knights Grand Master or Brother-Captain rolls a d3; the result is the number of units with the Deep Strike rule that may enter play in the Grey Knights' player's first turn.

Psychic Communion would be a standard unit special rule for Grey Knights Grand Masters and Brother-Captains only; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

Grey Knight Brother-Captain

 

·      A Brother-Captain may choose to exchange his Terminator Armour for Articifer Armour and a Personal Teleporter for +20 points.

·      If in Articifer Armour, he loses his ability to upgrade his Storm Bolter to any of the special ranged weapons.

·       A Brother-Captain may upgrade his Mastery Level to ML2 for +25 points.

·       Psychic Communion - Before deployment, a Grey Knights Grand Master or Brother-Captain rolls a d3; the result is the number of units with the Deep Strike rule that may enter play in the Grey Knights' player's first turn.

Psychic Communion would be a standard unit special rule for Grey Knights Grand Masters and Brother-Captains only; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

Brother-Captain Arvann Stern

 

·      Brother-Captain Stern is always considered to have rolled a ‘3’ on his d3 for Psychic Communion.

·      Brother-Captain Stern always knows the Vortex of Doom psychic power, from the Sanctic Daemonology discipline table, in addition to whatever powers he rolls for.

·      Brother-Captain Stern still has The Strands of Fate special rule.

 

Castellan Garran Crowe

 

·      Castellan Garran Crowe becomes an Independent Character, but may only be attached to a unit of Grey Knights Purifiers (other Independent Characters may also join; they do not interfere with Crowe’s ability to join)

·      Castellan Crowe carries the Blade of Antwyr (secured to his back a la Cypher), but fights with an Anointed Blade. 

·      Enemy models in a unit that assault Castellan Crowe still get Furious Charge and re-roll failed ‘To Hit’ rolls against him, and any unit he has joined, in that Assault phase.

·      Castellan Crowe gains a base of 4 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.

·      The Rapier Strike battle stance works against all characters, not just independent characters, as well as monstrous creatures.

 

Brotherhood Champion

 

·      Brotherhood Champions get an additional Wound (i.e. 2W).

·      Brotherhood Champions gain a base of 3 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.

·      May select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.

·      If a Brother-Captain is in the army list, a Brotherhood Champion may be taken without filling an FOC slot.

·      Look out, Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any Brotherhood Champion in a unit, regardless of whether he is the nearest model, and he automatically passes any Glorious Intervention attempts.  

·      The Rapier Strike battle stance works against all characters, not just independent characters, as well as monstrous creatures.

 

 

 

Librarian

 

·      Price drop to 120 points base.

 

Techmarine

 

·      Price drop to o/a 60 points base.

·      You can choose a Techmarine for each HQ choice in your army.

·      Does not occupy an FOC slot, but otherwise counts as an Elites choice.

·      May trade his Servo Harness for a Personal Teleporter for free.

 

Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)

·      A Grand Master can automatically Lo,S! to a Paladin.

·      Paladins gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

·      The Apothecary upgrade cost is reduced to +35 points.

·      All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Paladin units.

 

Grey Knight Terminator Squad

 

·      All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Grey Knights Terminator squads.

·      Grey Knights Terminator squads gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

 

Strike Squad

 

·      Strike Squads gain the Infiltrate special rule. 

·      The Strike Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

 

Purgation Squad

• Astral Aim - All shots fired by a Purgation Squad have the Ignores Cover special rule.

Astral Aim would be a standard unit special rule; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

Purifier Squad

 

·      Purifier Squads only get 1 Special Weapon per 5 models, rather than 2.

 

Interceptor Squad

 

·      The price of the Incinerator option for Interceptors is reduced to +10 points each.

·      The Interceptor Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

 

Nemesis Dreadknight

 

·      Dreadknights gain psyk-out grenade launchers.

·      A Nemesis Daemon Hammer carried by a Dreadknight strikes at AP1.

·      The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.

·      May take two of the same type of ranged weapon.

·      A Nemesis Dreadknight may take a Personal Teleporter for +40 points.

·      The Nemesis Greatsword is a Specialist Weapon (like the Doomfist and Daemon Hammer) which attacks at I+2 and S: User.  The Greatsword still allows rerolls to all failed To Hit, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls.

 

 

* So, what I’m saying is that all three close combat weapons are Specialist, which means they all complement each other in any combination to grant the extra attack for having an off-hand weapon; this means that no matter which weapons you chose, the Nemesis Dreadknight will have a base of 4 Attacks (5 on the charge).

I assume the rule is still somewhere in The Rules, that states that if you have more than one special close combat weapon, that you have to pick which one you are using, so this will force the owner to chose his advantages for each turn. If he picks:

Attack with a Nemesis Doomfist, then he gets S10, AP2 attacks.
Attack with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer, then he gets S10, AP1, Concussive attacks.
Attack with Nemesis Greatsword, then he gets S6, AP2 attacks, that reroll all failed To Hits, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls (and the Strength of the attacks can be improved by successfully casting Hammerhand).

I could certainly see improving the Dreadknight’s Nemesis Daemon Hammer further to include Fleshbane and/or Armourbane, but it’s points cost would need to shoot up to at least a +25 upgrade for all of those advantages.

 

Dreadnought

 

·      Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.

 

Venerable Dreadnought

 

·      Frontal Armour Value improved to 13.

·      Venerable Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.

·      Venerable Dreadnoughts are Psychic Mastery Level 2, and have access to the Santic Daemonology discipline table.

 

Brotherhood Banner

 

·      Units with a Brotherhood Banner may reroll any failed dice rolls on the Psychic Power activation check for Force, in addition to granting an extra Attack per model in close combat. 

 

Servo Skulls

 

·      Cannot be removed from play.

·      Price increased to 10 points each.

 

Psilencers

 

·      Wounds from Psilencers ignore Invulnerable saves.

 

Nemesis Force Falchions

 

·      Any model equipped with Nemesis Force Falchions gains +2 Attacks in close combat.

 

 

V

[Captain Coolpants]

I've done some tweaking, based on feedback since the last drop.  

 

The Army

 

·      Deep Strike: all non-vehicle Grey Knights units have the Deep Strike special rule.

·      Psybolt Ammunition: all non-vehicle Grey Knights models with storm bolters can upgrade to Psybolt Ammunition for +2 points per model.

 

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

 

·      Mordrak becomes an Independent Character, although he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights; other Independent Characters may not join this unit.

·      Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).

·      Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

·      Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).

·      If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.

·      Psychic Communion- see below.

 

Grey Knight Grand Master

·       Psychic Communion - Before deployment, a Grey Knights Grand Master or Brother-Captain rolls a d3; the result is the number of units with the Deep Strike rule that may enter play in the Grey Knights' player's first turn.

Psychic Communion would be a standard unit special rule for Grey Knights Grand Masters and Brother-Captains only; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

Grey Knight Brother-Captain

 

·      A Brother-Captain may choose to exchange his Terminator Armour for Articifer Armour and a Personal Teleporter for +20 points.

·      If in Articifer Armour, he loses his ability to upgrade his Storm Bolter to any of the special ranged weapons.

·       A Brother-Captain may upgrade his Mastery Level to ML2 for +25 points.

·       Psychic Communion - Before deployment, a Grey Knights Grand Master or Brother-Captain rolls a d3; the result is the number of units with the Deep Strike rule that may enter play in the Grey Knights' player's first turn.

Psychic Communion would be a standard unit special rule for Grey Knights Grand Masters and Brother-Captains only; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

Brother-Captain Arvann Stern

 

·      Brother-Captain Stern is always considered to have rolled a ‘3’ on his d3 for Psychic Communion.

·      Brother-Captain Stern always knows the Vortex of Doom psychic power, from the Sanctic Daemonology discipline table, in addition to whatever powers he rolls for.

·      Brother-Captain Stern still has The Strands of Fate special rule.

 

Castellan Garran Crowe

 

·      Castellan Garran Crowe becomes an Independent Character, but may only be attached to a unit of Grey Knights Purifiers (other Independent Characters may also join; they do not interfere with Crowe’s ability to join)

·      Castellan Crowe carries the Blade of Antwyr (secured to his back a la Cypher), but fights with an Anointed Blade. 

·      Enemy models in a unit that assault Castellan Crowe still get Furious Charge and re-roll failed ‘To Hit’ rolls against him, and any unit he has joined, in that Assault phase.

·      Castellan Crowe gains a base of 4 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.

·      The Rapier Strike battle stance works against all characters, not just independent characters, as well as monstrous creatures.

 

Brotherhood Champion

 

·      Brotherhood Champions get an additional Wound (i.e. 2W).

·      Brotherhood Champions gain a base of 3 attacks, but may opt to use any of the Battle Stances at the beginning of a fight sub-phase.

·      May select a Personal Teleporter for +25 points.

·      If a Brother-Captain is in the army list, a Brotherhood Champion may be taken without filling an FOC slot.

·      Look out, Sir! rolls can be automatically placed on any Brotherhood Champion in a unit, regardless of whether he is the nearest model, and he automatically passes any Glorious Intervention attempts.  

·      The Rapier Strike battle stance works against all characters, not just independent characters, as well as monstrous creatures.

 

 

 

Librarian

 

·      Price drop to 120 points base.

 

Techmarine

 

·      Price drop to o/a 60 points base.

·      You can choose a Techmarine for each HQ choice in your army.

·      Does not occupy an FOC slot, but otherwise counts as an Elites choice.

·      May trade his Servo Harness for a Personal Teleporter for free.

 

Paladin Squad (including Apothecary)

·      A Grand Master can automatically Lo,S! to a Paladin.

·      Paladins gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

·      The Apothecary upgrade cost is reduced to +35 points.

·      All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Paladin units.

 

Grey Knight Terminator Squad

 

·      All Land Raiders variants become Dedicated Transports for Grey Knights Terminator squads.

·      Grey Knights Terminator squads gain access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

 

Strike Squad

 

·      Strike Squads gain the Infiltrate special rule. 

·      The Strike Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

 

Purgation Squad

 

• Astral Aim - All shots fired by a Purgation Squad have the Ignores Cover special rule.

Astral Aim would be a standard unit special rule; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

Purifier Squad

 

·      Purifier Squads only get 1 Special Weapon per 5 models, rather than 2.

 

Interceptor Squad

 

·      The price of the Incinerator option for Interceptors is reduced to +10 points each.

·      The Interceptor Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

 

Nemesis Dreadknight

 

·      Dreadknights gain psyk-out grenade launchers.

·      A Nemesis Daemon Hammer carried by a Dreadknight strikes at AP1.

·      The points for the three ranged weapons are reduced by 10 points each.

·      May take two of the same type of ranged weapon.

·      A Nemesis Dreadknight may take a Personal Teleporter for +40 points.

·      The Nemesis Greatsword is a Specialist Weapon (like the Doomfist and Daemon Hammer) which attacks at I+2 and S: User.  The Greatsword still allows rerolls to all failed To Hit, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls.

 

 

* So, what I’m saying is that all three close combat weapons are Specialist, which means they all complement each other in any combination to grant the extra attack for having an off-hand weapon; this means that no matter which weapons you chose, the Nemesis Dreadknight will have a base of 4 Attacks (5 on the charge).

I assume the rule is still somewhere in The Rules, that states that if you have more than one special close combat weapon, that you have to pick which one you are using, so this will force the owner to chose his advantages for each turn. If he picks:

Attack with a Nemesis Doomfist, then he gets S10, AP2 attacks.

Attack with a Nemesis Daemon Hammer, then he gets S10, AP1, Concussive attacks.

Attack with Nemesis Greatsword, then he gets S6, AP2 attacks, that reroll all failed To Hits, To Wound, and Armour Penetration rolls (and the Strength of the attacks can be improved by successfully casting Hammerhand).

I could certainly see improving the Dreadknight’s Nemesis Daemon Hammer further to include Fleshbane and/or Armourbane, but it’s points cost would need to shoot up to at least a +25 upgrade for all of those advantages.

 

Dreadnought

 

·      Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.

 

Venerable Dreadnought

 

·      Frontal Armour Value improved to 13.

·      Venerable Dreadnoughts may trade their Multi-melta for a Heavy Psycannon for + 25 points, or a Gatling Psilencer for +20 points.

·      Venerable Dreadnoughts are Psychic Mastery Level 2, and have access to the Santic Daemonology discipline table.

 

Brotherhood Banner

 

·      Units with a Brotherhood Banner may reroll any failed dice rolls on the Psychic Power activation check for Force, in addition to granting an extra Attack per model in close combat. 

 

Servo Skulls

 

·      Cannot be removed from play.

·      Price increased to 10 points each.

 

Psilencers

 

·      Wounds from Psilencers ignore Invulnerable saves.

 

Nemesis Force Falchions

 

·      Any model equipped with Nemesis Force Falchions gains +2 Attacks in close combat.

 

 

V

If these changes are made I'd be a happy space exorcist!!

 

The only things im a bit iffy about are strikes getting infiltrate (why should our basic troops be better than everyone else's by an eeeven larger margin again?) the points would have to increase.

 

And falchions, although the way they are written right now grants +2 attacks (which we know was NOT their intention) , it's still undercoated even though they're expensive. I mean where else could you gain +2 attacks for 10 points? You can't! It's crazy cheap! And terminators get those extra attacks eeeven cheaper!

Tbh 10 points for even 1 extra strength 6 force weapon attack is pretty glorious.

So the only way around this in my opinion to make everyone happy (friend and foe allike) , would be to make falchions only 5 points for everyone, but they only grant +1 attack.

 

 

But everything else you listed is pretty badass, especially Stern! To auto pass d3 psychic communion would make him amazingly worth it. Because right now... He sucks

[IndigoJack]

I don't think purifiers should go down to 1 special/5 models. They're essentially our veterans (in the same way that purgation are our devastators) and veterans get multiple specials in a 5 man unit. I think a more apt change, is that purifiers can only take two special weapons, regardless of unit size. This would mean no 10 man units taking 4 psycannons and combat squaddiing them to get a psuedo-purgation squad, while still maintaining the spirit of the models.

[Valerian]

If these changes are made I'd be a happy space exorcist!!

 

The only things im a bit iffy about are strikes getting infiltrate (why should our basic troops be better than everyone else's by an eeeven larger margin again?) the points would have to increase.

I wouldn't mind increasing their points a bit to offset this new ability (although they did lose Warp Quake, which degraded their usefulness quite a bit, so the Infiltrate might just offset that). Regardless, the addition of Infiltrate is simply a handy and appropriate rules mechanic to reflect their job of teleporting down to a battlefield in advance of the rest of the army/force to "capture vital locations and key objectives..."

 

And falchions, although the way they are written right now grants +2 attacks (which we know was NOT their intention) , it's still undercoated even though they're expensive. I mean where else could you gain +2 attacks for 10 points? You can't! It's crazy cheap! And terminators get those extra attacks eeeven cheaper!

Tbh 10 points for even 1 extra strength 6 force weapon attack is pretty glorious.

So the only way around this in my opinion to make everyone happy (friend and foe allike) , would be to make falchions only 5 points for everyone, but they only grant +1 attack.

Although your point is accurate, it really only applies in a vacuum and out of context. In almost any other army, the price paid for +2 additional attacks would be pretty high, as you state; however, within the context of the Grey Knights army, you have to consider the trade-offs for taking Falchions and the opportunity costs really matter. For every set of Falchions taken, not only do you pay the points cost (usually 5, but sometimes 10 points per pair), you also sacrifice your ability to take the other Nemesis weapons, which means you miss out on the Sx2, I+2, or Sv+1 advantages that come with the Hammer, Halberd, and Sword, respectively.

 

Many players find that they need one of these abilities (Sx2, I+2, or Sv+1 )to build their units to be most effective, whereas they don't really need extra basic attacks. If you leave Falchions as just +1 extra attack, as they have been played throughout 5e and 6e, then the current situation continues, in which nobody ever takes them. The point of this thread was to identify those units and equipment/weapons that nobody ever takes, and adjust them to improve internal balance. Moving Falchions to +2 Attacks does that. Folks would probably take a few and spread them around the army, if they were at +2 Attacks, but they don't at +1.

 

But everything else you listed is pretty badass, especially Stern! To auto pass d3 psychic communion would make him amazingly worth it. Because right now... He sucks

Thanks much; appreciate your input.

 

V

[Captain Coolpants]

I see what you mean with the falchions, and I'd love them to be +2 attacks, but for anything other than a terminator or a model with an existing invun save, a sword actually doesn't give any benefit at all, other than being free. strike squads pretty much never have additional combat weapons due to them only having 1 attack Base, BUT if they could take falchions for a measily 5 points (same as a halberd) then they'd be an exceptional fire Base + assault unit mixed in with infiltrate! Especially when fighting against another marine armies, because hitting on 4s with only 1 attack is pretty sucky.

But that's just my bit of input. I'd rather not nerf my own army so I'll be quiet now lmao ;-p

[Quozzo]

Psybolt Ammunition: all non-vehicle Grey Knights models with storm bolters can upgrade to Psybolt Ammunition for +2 points per model.

What about vehicles like the Storm Raven. No change?

Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).

The current process requires a roll but it sounds like it happens whenever he takes a wound.

If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.

Instead of needing to remain with 6" as I think that could get quite crowded if they just remain with squad cohesion of Mordrak's marker, so it would be possible for some to be further than 6" if there's a line of them.

Psychic Communion - Before deployment, a Grey Knights Grand Master or Brother-Captain rolls a d3; the result is the number of units with the Deep Strike rule that may enter play in the Grey Knights' player's first turn.

Psychic Communion would be a standard unit special rule for Grey Knights Grand Masters and Brother-Captains only; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

TBH I would prefer it within TGS as you could have 1D3 units deep striking first turn and another 1d3 scouting as both rules come from the GKGM. I think only having Psychic Communion on the B-C so if you did want to scout 1d3 and deep strike 1d3 you would need to take both ICs to benefit from both of their strategies.

Should Crowe have 3 wounds as he would effectively be worse than the BHC in CC if he was assaulted, due to him carrying the Blade on Antwyr (sp?) Does he still rend on 4's too? (I think he should otherwise he would only be marginally better then the BHC.)

[Techamrine] May trade his Servo Harness for a Personal Teleporter for free.

I still don't see the appeal of this. He loses his servo harness which counts as 2 plasma pistols, a flamer and something else i think, while in CC it counts as 2 power fists or something, so if he loses it to become a shock assault IC then he loses his ability to do anything. Don't forget he only has 1 wound so putting something on him like an orbital strike relay is risky as chaos.

Strike Squads gain the Infiltrate special rule.

To be clear, I was opposed to the idea of the whole army deep striking on turn one, not half of the army.

I agree with jbat360 about giving strikes infiltrate. It just seems wrong. If you want them to act as the force that teleports to the battlefield before anyone else then they should deep strike at turn one. Infiltrate could have them on the table in range of enemy fire before they get a chance to move or shoot which is not fluffy imo, that would indicate the unit didn't want to fire back in case they gave away their position but once they came under attack they had no choice but to retaliate in their turn. On the other hand, deep striking on turn one is not only fluffy for deep striking but also benefits the squad, while not trying to shoe horn rules on units that already have an appropriate rule, just make it earlier as per the fluff.

Purifier Squads only get 1 Special Weapon per 5 models, rather than 2.

I would still like to voice my objection on this. If psycannons are too good make them more expensive on purifiers (or all round).

The Interceptor Squad Justicar can take a Teleport Homer for +15 points.

I don't like it since we have skulls for this purpose, but since they lost warp quake it wouldn't be stretch to make this an innate ability, for strikes too. For intance: You could use psychic communion to DS your strikes/interceptors on turn one which would place the "homer" on the board ready for the back-up. But since interceptors are weak they may be destroyed before hand so you might want to use psychic communion on your back-up instead and risk the mishaps knowing it will be worth it.

[NDK] May take two of the same type of ranged weapon.

While that would be cool filled with awesome, it would be too good. Bordering the greatness of a LRR (but obviously not as good AP) while being able to deep strike and then melee the few units that didn't get fried by two template weapons. What if it had a sort of PotMS ability instead where its two weapons could fire at different targets and thus a reason to take two (while not needing to buy another sprue for another similar weapon).

I could certainly see improving the Dreadknight’s Nemesis Daemon Hammer further to include Fleshbane and/or Armourbane, but it’s points cost would need to shoot up to at least a +25 upgrade for all of those advantages.

Scratch that idea. I just wanted to differentiate between the hammer and the DCCW.

Everything else looks good. I would still like to see terminator purgation squads though, especially if they're competing with the NDK equipped with two heavy incinerators.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

I agree with jbat360 about giving strikes infiltrate. It just seems wrong. If you want them to act as the force that teleports to the battlefield before anyone else then they should deep strike at turn one.

 

Turn 1 doesn't represent that.  Your opponent is already *there* on the objectives and possibly already moved to secure more.

 

A Pre turn 1 ability is really the only way to represent Strikes turning up prior to the main force.

 

 

 

While that would be cool filled with awesome, it would be too good.

 

It's one of the main benefits of being a MC.  The ability to shoot two weapons.  But if you only take one, becuase the other two either don't work together, or suck, we lose that inherent benefit of being one.

 

If the NDK is a MC, then give him the opportunity to perform like a proper MC.

 

The same would apply if he was made a Super Heavy/Walker.

 

 

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

 

·      Mordrak becomes an Independent Character, although he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights; other Independent Characters may not join this unit.

·      Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).

·      Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

·      Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).

·      If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.

·      Psychic Communion- see below.

 

Mordrak still seems like he's causing problems.

 

So IC's can't join him now?  Why make him an IC?  Just leave him a the 'Justicar' of a unit that is 1-10/11.  200 points for Mordrak.  Can purchase 1-9/10 Ghost Knights for 45 points each.  No need for him to be an IC.

 

One question about the Ghost Knights?  What happens if they are Tank Shocked?  What happens if they are forced to Pile In in CC and have to move more than 6" away from Mordrak?

 

Maybe they cannot voluntarily move more than 6".  But then again Quozzo's suggestion of Coherency might be better.  They have to remain in coherency with the token.  And if (by Tank Shock, or CC etc) they find themselves out of coherency, they must move back into it again.

[thraxdown]

 

I agree with jbat360 about giving strikes infiltrate. It just seems wrong. If you want them to act as the force that teleports to the battlefield before anyone else then they should deep strike at turn one.

Turn 1 doesn't represent that. Your opponent is already *there* on the objectives and possibly already moved to secure more.

 

A Pre turn 1 ability is really the only way to represent Strikes turning up prior to the main force.

While that would be cool filled with awesome, it would be too good.

It's one of the main benefits of being a MC. The ability to shoot two weapons. But if you only take one, becuase the other two either don't work together, or suck, we lose that inherent benefit of being one.

 

If the NDK is a MC, then give him the opportunity to perform like a proper MC.

 

The same would apply if he was made a Super Heavy/Walker.

Grand Master Vorth Mordrak and his Ghost Knights (version 2).

 

· Mordrak becomes an Independent Character, although he may only be attached to a unit of Ghost Knights; other Independent Characters may not join this unit.

· Ghost Knights are 45 points each, but otherwise may take the exact same upgrades as a Grey Knights Terminator squad, including the special weapons upgrades (e.g. an Incinerator, or a Psycannon, etc.).

· Ghost Knights have access to the Sanctuary psychic power from the Sanctic discipline, in addition to Banishment and Hammerhand.

· Additional Ghost Knights, with no upgrades, are spawned if Mordrak takes a Wound (same as current process).

· If Mordrak is removed from play as a casualty, replace his model with an Objective marker; any Ghost Knights remaining in the unit, to include any spawned Ghost Knights, must remain within 6” of this marker for the remainder of the game.

· Psychic Communion- see below.

Mordrak still seems like he's causing problems.

 

So IC's can't join him now? Why make him an IC? Just leave him a the 'Justicar' of a unit that is 1-10/11. 200 points for Mordrak. Can purchase 1-9/10 Ghost Knights for 45 points each. No need for him to be an IC.

 

One question about the Ghost Knights? What happens if they are Tank Shocked? What happens if they are forced to Pile In in CC and have to move more than 6" away from Mordrak?

 

Maybe they cannot voluntarily move more than 6". But then again Quozzo's suggestion of Coherency might be better. They have to remain in coherency with the token. And if (by Tank Shock, or CC etc) they find themselves out of coherency, they must move back into it again.

My thought was if they move away from mordraks counter they're removed as casualties. So if your opponent ties you up in combat and your pileins move you too far from mordraks resting spot, the ghost knights "lose their connection to the mortal world" and are removed as casualties. It's different, keeps within the spirit of the ghostly bodyguard rule and most importantly I think it would be fun.

[ravencrow]

What are your thoughts on this as an alternative?

 

Purgation Squad

• Astral Aim - All shots fired by a Purgation Squad have the Ignores Cover special rule.

 

Astral Aim would be a standard unit special rule; it's based on the unit's psychic ability, but not itself an activated psychic power.

 

thats sounds great but what about the incinerators? they are free now so maybe this new Astral Aim rule should keep them free. :)  

[ravencrow]

I'm thinking another good change should be a heavy weapons and melee weapons point balance. Now they are all over the board.

 

This is how they are now:

 

Purifiers: Incinerator                     free                                                                     Side note:  10 Purifiers w/4 psycannons 280pts <---------fearless, 2 attacks

               Psilencer------------------free                                                                                        10 Interceptors w/2 psycannons 280pts<-----deepstrike, jump, shunt

               Psycannon                    10                                                                                          10 Strikes w/2 psycannons 220pts <-----------deepstrike

               Halberd---------------------2                                                                                           10 Purge w/4 psycannons 280pts <------------.......

               Hammer                         5                                                                                                             

               Falchons-------------------5                                                                                                  

                                                                                                                                                          

Strikes:   Incinerator                      20

               Psilencer-------------------free

               Psycannon                     10

               Halberd---------------------5

               Hammer                         10

               Falchons-------------------10

 

Intercepters: Incinerator                20

               Psilencer-------------------free

               Psycannon                     10

               Halberd---------------------5

               Hammer                         10

               Falchons-------------------10

 

Purge:    Incinerator                      free

               Psilencer-------------------10

               Psycannon                     20

               Halberd---------------------3

               Hammer                         5

               Falchons-------------------10

 

The problem with making the points more balanced is that there would be a thinner line between the squads you choose. (since they have had their psyker abilities changed)

 

All of the old abilities made you think more about the usfullness of each squad and they had a different play style as well. Now its like-why take a Strike or a Purge squad?

 

I think if GW changes the points cost of weapons then they need to implement something for each squad to make them different from each other like they were. OR I see them as

 

being like The Legion of the Damned---a one unit army.

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                      Brother-Captain Ravencrow