Teetengee Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I am working on an origin story that involves an inquisitor trying to use space wolf geneseed to produce his own space marine. (He does not have the Space Wolves's permission). Obviously this will cause some problems as he doesn't have a good understanding of the canis helix. Here is the question, what problems would arise, and how could they potentially be fixed or worked around? Story in question is Storm Reavers link in my sig. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 You'd have more luck in the Wolves sub-forum but... One of the 40k issues is that supposedly the geneseed will not work on non-Fenrisians, though whether this means failure and death or some sort of Wulfen-beastie I don't know. The other issue, not solely related to the seed itself is that how did the Inquisitor get hold of it? The geneseed is held, in part, by both the Chapter and a tithe to the AdMech. And that has exhausted the knowledge my exhausted brain has. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 He recreated it from a progenoid gland he stole from a dying space wolf. Hence the heresy tag, amongst other reasons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710291 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 what problems would arise Insane, degenerate wolf monsters. and how could they potentially be fixed or worked around? They couldn't, not really. You might "fix" the wolf monster problem, but there would be other unwelcome consequences. Read up on the Cursed Founding. Messing around with gene-seed never ends well. (That's not to say you shouldn't do it, but there's no way your Inquisitor is going to end up with his own perfect pet Space Wolf. There will be something "wrong" with it, even if it can function as a Space Marine.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 I wasn't planning on it ending terribly well. And I figured I would get wulfen (at best) without some serious work. Thanks. Any ideas on how someone might "fix" the wolf monster problem? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 The suggestion for the Cursed Founding was that they'd attempted to blend gene-seed originating from different Legions to isolate the flaws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 That was similar to what my inquisitor was doing, but he had the advantage of some heresy era tech he "acquired" that seemed to be built for such a purpose. If he loses it, all his plans will clearly be undone, as shown by what happened in the cursed founding. (at least that is my justification for why it works in any way whatsoever.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710308 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Topic moved. Have at it, Wolves. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 well there has only been one attempt to create a successor for the space wolves, the wolf brothers, and they all turned into degenerate monsters (not even wulfen) fairly rapidly, so I expect that is what you would get I think an inquisitor would struggle to fix it, given it took a fully trained wolf priest about 200 years to stabilise the geneseed and magnus wiped it all out. Doubt anyone without intricate knowledge already could do the same in less than 500 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 So maybe after 400 years or so he could have something that could run towards the enemy in power armor with some measure of sanity? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BT_Cennar Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Rather not. id sugest going a slightly different way.. Your Inquisitor "found" a lost SW- BattleBarge near the Eye of Terror with some survivers wich turned into wolfen/braindead marines. they Still look like SWs but act more out of Instinct then Mental/physical training. smt that like.. this way you dont "break" the fluff for SWs as there are no know succesors(beside the Brothers).. and given that , if and when Bjorn smells smt like a corupted SW geneeseed in the hands of Inqusition one can tell not Logan nor the Lords of Terra will save the given Inquisitor of the full might of Fenris. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Any ideas on how someone might "fix" the wolf monster problem? The Space Wolves' Wolf Priest have been trying to limit/isolate/resolve the so-called "Curse of the Wulfen" for 10,000 years and haven't figured out how to fix it yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 tbh given that magnus the red was so terrified of the wolves achieving this that he set up a massive elaborate trap to lure them away and then attacked the Fang just to destroy the research, I doubt he would allow an inquisitor to achieve the same. If it got back to the wolves then things would not go well for chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 I wasn't planning on him succeeding at removing the curse, just attenuating it enough to create a functional soldier. He doesn't care if he ends up with a wolf monster, as long as it is capable of knowing friend from foe. Maybe he will need to feed on the flesh of [____] to keep it at bay or something like that. Also, if the inquisiton or any chapter runs across him, they will scream heresy/murder anyways, so that isn't as much of an issue. (Well it is, but he does not intend on keeping friends.) If all of the above still seems impossible, I will have him fail, at least until I can think of a better idea for how to fix it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Bretton Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 oh I appreciate that, I was actually trying to throw stuff you could use as to why he failed, or fun things you could use in your background. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 I appreciate it. Thank you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arez Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I wasn't planning on it ending terribly well. And I figured I would get wulfen (at best) without some serious work. Thanks. Any ideas on how someone might "fix" the wolf monster problem? I would personally recommend a bolt to the head so he doesnt kill innocents As for the original question: Maybe he only thought it was a Space Wolf since the marine looked feral but really it was a different gene stock like a White Scars descendant chapter or something that way you wouldnt have to deal with a super monster Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3710651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 Marine implantation process is highly specific and technical. How does your inquisitor know anything about it? He will not know about any defects with the canis helix either so how would he know there was a problem to fix? And how would he know how such a marine would develop correctlt to be able to get the recruit to survive? Even an experienced apothecary with the full chapter medicae behind him might lose 1 in 4 recruits, even when they've been selected to have the compatibility to succeed. Not wanting to say dont do it, but there's background that'll need explaining away... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3711571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growler67 Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 The problem with cutting and splicing geneseed (or DNA/RNA strands) is that the "cutting" part isn't perfectly precise and so there will be mutation just what specifically and to what extent will be the "great unknown". Trying to do so and forge a custom-build Astartes without specific "undesired" traits falls square into this realm. While your Inquisitor may have "acquired" technology, have some knowledge as well as facilities at his displosal....he would be far from a specialized technician with focused training and experience performing the task at hand. Even if he had an individual or individuals at his disposal....the process is still imprecise and somewhat random as far as achieving the specific goal. For example; in modern science we can grow a human ear on the back of a lab mouse. However, we cannot determine precise location nor size and whether or not there will be ANY mutation, regardless of how small or perceptually significant/insignificant. Jump to the grimdark and there are a number of surgeries and implants that create an Astartes over a period of time and at any one of those procedures the initiate may not survive. In addition, the Canis Helix is such a singularly exceptional variant of the Astartes geneseed, that it can only be introduced to native Fenresians, and even then there are a percentage of random mutations as well as fatal failures among the initiates. Your background story will have to be extensive and very specific to cover ALL the permutations to dispell doubt and increase plausibility...."The Insquisition" will only cover so much obscuration and secrecy. Nobody will expect the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth....however....it HAS to be plausible or it'll just crumble. There are things within the 40K Universe where suspension of (current) belief as well as an allowable amount of "stretching" of ideas and such is accepted. Stretch too much and things just get rediculous. Though I am in no way intending on discouraging your idea....I will caution you that it appears to be a mighty undertaking by my estimation. Consider your options and perhaps find some other way to find the charaters you wish without breaking the rules of plausibility. Anything is possible...but is everything believable? There are Warp forces, posessions, Chaos 'influence' without fully turning heretical, there are battlefield injuries, there are lost or hidden/forgotten vaults belonging to Chapters long lost to archive records and memory, there may be Genestealers involved in a partial process or something, there may be "unknown" Xenos within the Galaxy that have a technology unknown to Mankind.....blah, blah, blah. The Inquisition also is weary of Inquisitors that appear to have too many "secret projects" or are keeping to themselves too much....the threat from within is something they take VERY serious as well. Good Luck whatever you choose to do.....and report back with your decision. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3711625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Guard Dan Posted June 7, 2014 Share Posted June 7, 2014 This is a tricky one. People have given good feedback. As was mentioned earlier, a wolf priest with hundreds of years experience, knowledge and tools from the Crusade, and the proper materials is what it took to get close to messing with the gene seed before Magnus messed it all up. Granted you are not trying to do as much with it as he was. At best you would probably get an uncontrollable beast. If you were looking for some control it wouldn't come from the individual. It would probably need some outside method of control, like a shock collar. In literature a SW that was being overcome by the beast within warned his pack brother back. He said he couldn't protect him (from the beast within?) Is your inquisitor a heretic? How did he get the knowledge of the inadequacies of the SW geneseed? Info about the geneseed is a Chapter's closest guarded secret. It may be more likely he uses the geneseed and as things go along he tries to compensate for when things go wrong. Maybe he put 2 and 2 together and recognized SW only recruit from Fenris, maybe there's something to that. Maybe he finds a descendant of a Fenrisian or kidnaps a vassal off of a SW vessel. So there's some questions you have to ask and maybe some answers. Good luck. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3711691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted June 7, 2014 Author Share Posted June 7, 2014 So two things, first he does have an old deathwatch apothecary working for him (which is probably the best chance any non space wolf would have.) Also I am getting the idea that it would probably take 1000s of men to make some progress, well, I'll have to find some place to store the bodies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3711784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Thousands of men means thousands of sets of geneseed and now you've got to convince a deathwatch apothecary to betray a fellow chapter of marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3711962 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Growler67 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 An Apothecary is not a geneticist nor gene splicer....he is a medic, skilled to heal and if trained to perform surgery.....and when necessary, to extract the coveted and sacred geneseed from one of the fallen. It's not enough "expertise" for the job described. If there were a member of the AdMech that had access to the tithe vault or processed the tithe deliveries upon their arrival...and this person could have a plausible explination for setting aside a sample or three and could do so without drawing scrutiny (as one might imagine that would be multi-layered with redundancies) over the unaccounted for samples of the most sacred facet of a Chapter barring their Primarch.....holier than Chapter Relics.....you might possibly have access to the material(s), ie the geneseed, but then you have to figure out the cutting and splicing and technician applicable parts....then the 19 surgeries of implantation and so on.... A single Apothecary, even one with the potential renown of being a member of the Deathwatch is just not enough.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3711985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I suggest you read Space Wolf & Battle of the Fang, as these will both give you ideas on what happens when the geneseed doesnt take and the process' the wolves have gone through to stabilise it all out. The closest anyone has come to eradicating te problems with geneseed was Corax I think from Deliverance Lost, so fluff-wise the Inq coiuld haver stolen the research from a senior Alpha Legion and tried to use the information garnered to create his own genetics lab and using the geneseed of the Space Wolves found from a drifting Battle barge he tried to create his own huscarl retinue. Without knowing of the Space Wolves Canis Helix side effects and assuming corruption from the warp, his creations were not stable or did not remain so for long. If his test subjects didnt go insane and try to dash their brains out, the craved flesh and blood to sustain their massively accelerated muscle and gene growth. The only problem was the Inquisitor did not know these things and the only reliable way for the Wayward Wolves was to assault and eat the Inquisitors retinue. Those who survived the process were bestial to look upon, but maintained a low animal cunning. Perfect hunters for seeking out the Inquisitors tainted prey. An exceptional few survived the process and became the Inquisitors bodyguard. Bound to him as he is their Alpha pack leader. For those poor wretches utterly lost, the Inquisitor suspecting chaos mutation rather than the true nature of the Calis Helix, put the "beasts" down. So far the Inqusitor has managed to avoid the gaze of the Space Wolves, as Logan Grimnar would show no hesitation to hunt him down should he discover the blasphemy that has occurred to his brothers and their seed, besides this Inquisitor unwittingly represents the single greatest threat to the Space Wolves secret and ultimately their survival. As seen in the Emperors gift, Logan Grimnar would have no problem going to war with the inquisition if it meant his brothers survival and to avenge the wrong done to his chapter. Who knows what would happen should the great enemy discover the truth of this meddling Inquisitors discovery. I recommend reading Deliverance Lost, Space Wolf (even though Bill King messed up the recruitment section on Space Wolves, however it was before the 4th edition Codex so we can let him off) Battle of the Fang (Wolves going Wulfen mid battle and a darned good read) and Deliverance Lost for your gene splicing and another good book! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3712018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teetengee Posted June 9, 2014 Author Share Posted June 9, 2014 Thank you for the suggestions. I will come back to you when I have figured out (and read up on this) some more. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292067-question-on-the-canis-helix/#findComment-3713221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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