GK or INQ allies

[Frater Cornelius]

Aight, so what is the people's opinion on GK or INQ allies now that we are battle bros. Henchmen can replace Veterans by having way more options in transports and gear and unit composition (except the almighty Taurox, d'oh well).

Jokaeros are decent Heavy weapon platforms. Stick 'em in a Chimera and either drive to the front to heavy flamer people or just sit back and LC away.

And there are the Inquisitors with their magic bag of toys and Warp Charges.

 

On the GK side we have overpriced Strike Squad and TDA, but a very nice lvl3 Librarian option and the almighty Vindicare. He will kill anything and with AP1 his turbo penetrator is that much more powerful in our world of 7+ explosion.

Henchmen are also an option here with Coteaz, the big cheese.

 

So, do you have any experience at all with them? Do you think it's worth it at all? Let me know what you think.

[march10k]

I had originally thought that the way to go would be a TDA ML3 libby (santic) with paladin escort, but I had forgotten that it takes draigo to make paladins troops.  In the meantime, Coteaz is just about the meanest sonovabitch this side of Terra, but expensive, so maybe the ML3 libby (in power armor?) is the way to go...As you said, Coteaz allows henchmen, which is nice if you have the points.  I'm less sold on the assassin. Maybe he's just not my style?  One thing  can't recommend enough is the rifleman dreddy with psybolt ammo, not just for his shooting, but for reinforced aegis...allows you to reroll ALL failed dice on a deny the witch roll, effectively doubling the number of dice you get for denying summonings and blessings.

[WarriorFish]

My opinion is that the Inquisition is best used as flavour and character for your army. The tricks that people try are a little tiresome now but the ability to reflect your background or some campaign story is great. I'm aware that I may be in the minority thinking this :P

[hendrik]

codex grey knights has been FAQ'ed while codex inquisition has nor been.

Part of the FAQ includes henchmen psychers becoming level 1 psychers,with acces to Daemonology (santic),  divination, pyromancy,telekinesis and telepathy.

since my opponent decided to troll me with a necron-chaos space marines summoning deamons-list i've drawn up a list to make him reconsider the whole deamonology thing:

 

coteas

10 x henchmen unit: Psycher, 2 normal henchmen armed with bolters 10 x 20 pts

that's 13 warpcharges on top of what he/i roll on the warp charge roll...and the worst part is that these are 10 different units, this very hard to destroy them all!

[march10k]

LOL...that's just not nice!

[hendrik]

note that such squads are still more usefull then our psycher battle squad! they are cheaper... the only thing that changes is that each of them is accompanied by two guardsmen (armed with bolters, but you could keep them with CCW+laspistol) and that you need to include coteaz, a marginally good HQ choice anyway!

[hornywingythingy]

note that such squads are still more usefull then our psycher battle squad! they are cheaper... the only thing that changes is that each of them is accompanied by two guardsmen (armed with bolters, but you could keep them with CCW+laspistol) and that you need to include coteaz, a marginally good HQ choice anyway!

Coteaz is better than marginally good, he is like 50 points below what he should cost! Guess what I'mpainting for my guard? Though I'm thinking gk rather than inquisition as I think they could fill some holes in my build.

[Frater Cornelius]

After reading the FAQ I am almost confident in the GK choice. Given that you can form Combined Arms Detachment.. as far as I understand, within each detachment only one Codex can be used but you can choose different codecies for different detachments. That is how I read it and internet seems to agree for the most part. If that is indeed the case, then I can make 2 detachments: IG (primary with Warlord) and GK. The reason for that is that I want to include up to 2 HQ on GK side and possibly max out the HS choices in both codecies (probably 2 HS each).

Here are the units that I feel can enrich my shooty panzers of holiness:

 

Coteaz - 25 points above a lvl2 primais psyker, sports better stats and he allows you to plan. Enemy seizing on you is almost impossible now, which allows you to plan ahead and spare unpleasantries. You having an 11/36 chance to seize ain't bad either, but it's just a bonus.

 

Inquisitor - just one cheap fella in case I want to use plasma cannon servitors to prevent mind lock. Gives 1 charge so thats solid but his base cost is just too good to be true.

 

Vindicare - still on the fencr but hell, turbo penetrator seems better by the minute to me. Too bad he is so expensive. Worth thinking about for sure though.

 

Psifleman dread - also on the fence. On the one hand 4TL S8 shots is nice but against fliers and skimmers the 2 hydras which cost just 5 points more do a better job. Against ground I have enough s6/7 so s8 will not be too necessary.

He gives Aegis (global reroll 1s for deny the witch), but a dreadknight has it as well. The reroll all dice are only for psychic stuff targeting hin if I read it correctly.

 

Dreadknight - I'll be honest, I like him. Will probably convert to make it look like a human pilot in a mech but the rules are solid. For 160 points you get a nice bullet sponge with a torrent heavy flamer. Basically a hellhound on legs but with way higher survivability and s10 melee. That psy cannon is niceas well. I do not think I want to give him a jump pack, I'd rather take 2 Knights slogging up front and shooting. They will eat enough fire to allow my army to go nuts. They are also lvl1 psyker ;)

 

Henchmen - I am not sure what setup though. Here's some options:

 

MSU - 4-5 dudes with stormbolters and a psyker in psybacks. 2 more charges, solid s6 TLHB shooting and 2 more psychic powers a turn. The stormbolters are ok if they leave their tank.

I could afford 3 of those in addition to my 2 melta veterans in Tauroxes and some extras to boot.

 

Plasma - 6-7 dudes with bolters and 3 plasmas, 4+ save, psyker in Chimera. Chimera has front 12 but is bigger so shooting side 10 ain't hard. Also 1 charge less and worse mounted fire. The content is a pure infantry and MC hunter. I can take 2 of those.

 

Heavy Weapons - Jokers are too expensive but 2 plasma cannon servitors, psyker, some acolytes in Chimera sounds like a solid firebase. Coteaz and a second Inquisitor goes with them to keep servitors going.

I can also buy a psyback, let the squad hang back and fire and get a 50 point fire base in addition. I can get 2 of those.

 

The list would look something like this at 1850:

 

Pask Vanquisher with LC

Vanquisher with LC wingman (yes march10k, I am actually doing it)

 

1 lvl2 primaris psyker

 

2x grenadiers with 3 meltas in Taurox

 

2x Hydra

2x Wyvern

 

Coteaz

possibly a cheap INQ depending on henchmen

 

2-3 henchmen squads (loadout up to debate)

 

2 dreadknights with either incinerator or the other gun (not the 12 shots one, that one is crap)

OR

2 Psiflemen dreads

OR

2 dreadknights and 1 psifleman (less points overall to spare)

 

Maybe something else if point permit in either CDA.

 

At 1500 it would be the IG detachment with Coteaz, henchmen and possibly one Knight, depending it I drop one of the IG HS. Gotta test it.

 

The idea is for the various transports and IG HS choices unleash hell on infantry and tanks (which is no small amount, actually that is a lot). NDK advance with transports to each fire and spew their guns at will, moving towards biggest threats.

Pask and long ranged Henchmen open up on heavy things.

This setup also gives a lot of psychic bases to cast from, basically covering the field, and decent defense with loads of charges, better rolls against bad things and rerolling 1s against anything.

 

Comments and suggestions welcome.

[march10k]

According to the GK forums (I used to have the codex...grr, can't find it!), the psyfleman either has reinforced aegis native, or can buy it as an upgrade.  Anyway, they say it lets you reroll ALL dice, not just ones, on deny the witch, and for any spell, not just ones targeting you.  If that's true, GET OFF THE FENCE, lol!

 

/edit/

 

I just thought of something...as much as I love coteaz, some actual grey knights with force weapons+hammerhand could be amazing.  The wraithknight that I left alive in nearly tabling an eldar player the other day would have gone down like a sack of meat to the first wound they put on him, no?

[Frater Cornelius]

Well Dreadknight can also 1hit him in melee with Force. I am not a fan of TDA, then have a lot of counters and do not eat as much fire. And they are expensive as hell. I wouldn't have the points to include a second troops choice and thus make a second CDA to get 2 NDK or 2 Psiflemen dreads.

 

As for the Aegis. 'The Aegis' is a rule that they NDK, DN and TM can bring. The DN also has 'Reinforced Aegis' in his profile.

However, here is the FAQ:

 

Q) Do the Aegis and Reinforced Aegis work when doing a DtW against blessings and Conjurations? BRB says no modifiers but as these arent modifiers (unlike say runic weapons) are they allowed?
A) No

 

As such, I am on the fence between a Dreadknight and a Psifleman. I am tending towards NDK. Both bring 1 warp charge. Dread gets Sanctuary? I read somewhere that GK vehicles that knew fortitude now know Sanctuary. Can anyone confirm? NDK can only use Force (Dark Ex. is gone) or Hammerhand. Still, he can instagib some pesky MC.

But here comes the flipping point: NDK is an assault deterrent. He can not be instantly killed outside of melee Force. He can Deep Strike (if that ever comes up), S10 melee at ws5 and ini4 (with the nerf to smash this is big). Bigger bullet magnet since he will be moving at a target with hardcore melee weapons. I just see much more use drawn out of the NDK, considering that with Psybacks, Plasma servitors, possible Witchfires (a lot of psykers in the army), Paskquisher and all the other jazz, some s8 ap4 TL shots are not going to make a difference at av12 or below. The specialized killers are superior (Hydra vs flyers and skimmers, Wyvern and Dreadknight Incinerator vs infantry, Taurox and Psybacks vs light transports, PC servitors vs heavy infantry and MC, Paskquisher vs anything but medium and light infantry and flyers).

Also, the dread is av12, how hard is it to glance it to death these days.

 

Oh, and don't forget. Most of my Psykers can roll on Telepathy with the chance of giving the NDK (or anything else for that matter) Invisibility (and thir own squad shrouding). Not bad at all. Or Biomancy to cast Endurance on it. Damn.

As it stands, this army can accumulate 10-12 charges before the bonus roll. Fairly solid for denying and allows for a quite a few things to be cast. Still nothing to the Eldar and Daemons 16+ armies but against the rest? Oh boy!

[march10k]

Might I suggest the current FAQ? 

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Grey_Knights_v1.0_May14.pdf

 

The question/answer you quote is not in the 7th edition FAQ (has TONS of errata, and like 3-4 FAQ), but it does say under errata:

 

Page 35: Reinforced Aegis:  Replace this special rule with:  Reinforced Aegis: This unit can reroll any failed deny the witch roll.

 

Now...you don't get to keep any sixes that you rolled on the first try, but you're still doubling your chances of denying....and if you only need 1-3 sixes....

 

/edit/

 

Also, the dread is av12, how hard is it to glance it to death these days.

 

Ask my opponents...other than godhammer spam (I faced four mortis contemptors with two TLLCs AND a CML each in a recent game), I tend to lose 1-2 chimeras per game...the enemy just has deadlier things to shoot at than AV12...now, a psyfleman is killier than a chimmy, but it's also not super-scoring...I dunno how much fire it's going to suck away from your proper tanks...and if it does...isn't that a good thing?

[Frater Cornelius]

Not really that good, because with s8 and 4 shots he is killier than my s6/7 ap4 TL shots. So chances are he is going to be a main target along side of Pask if he is in range. If I am unlucky then 1 Serpent Shield discharge means game over. Though he has more dakka than a NDK, he is more fragile. GK players prefer psyfleman because they lack long ranged pressure. With PC servitors, Paskquisher squadron, Hydras, Wyverns, Tauroxes and Psybacks I can claim to have a slightly bigger threat range than the average GK army with PA and TDA.

I suppose it comes down to whether I want to invest 320 points in to walking bullet sponges with a torrent heavy flamer that may or may not see melee range as opposed to 270 in 2x 4 LC s8 ap4 shots. Sponges are important because otherwise every turn my firepower is going to decrease for every transport killed. And if the Knight is going to be ignored, he is going to meet your average MC or whatever by turn 3.

On the other hand, Psyfleman saves me 50 points. If I can find 95 points somewhere else (which I should) I can bring a Vindicare and lauch at armour and psykers hiding in unit.

 

As fornthe Aegis, is says 'this unit', which is only the case when targeted with something. Blessing and Conjurations go untouched. Seems clear to me.

 

Any comment on the Psyfleman vs NDK issue regading the list above? I have never fielded any, so help me out ;)

[march10k]

 

As fornthe Aegis, is says 'this unit', which is only the case when targeted with something. Blessing and Conjurations go untouched. Seems clear to me.

 

 

I made the same error.  The top of page 26 indeed says that you need to be targeted attempt to deny the witch...but later on the same page, it says you can deny stuff that doesn't target you, with the caveat that you need natural sixes, no modifiers, to succeed.  

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, if that is indeed true then reinforced aegis ain't bad. You do not keep the sixes, right? This basically gives you a second try to deny any power. Given how 50% of my army would be psykers and most others have relic plating, anything target related would be useless and gives a decent chance to stop that invisibility. I'll have to read into that.

What about the regular aegis? Just global reroll 1s while denying?

 

In any case, that would be in favour of the psyfleman. Any more opinions?

[march10k]

Correct, regular aegis only rerolls ones...and, also correct, you don't get to keep any successes if you reroll using reinforced aegis.  Then again, if you need five successes and only have four, are you better off keeping the failure you already have?  What's the worst that can happen, that you fail "worse" on the reroll?  The potential to reroll a glance, seekin a pen, and get a whiff, just isn't there, although, yes, it would be nice to keep the successes.  

 

Interestingly, this narrows the gap between aegis and reinforced aegis, since aegis KEEPS successes, but gets you far fewer rerolls.  Two scenarios:

 

Contesting a witchfire, say you have eight dice and need three successes to deny.  Your psycher, due to bonuses, needs 4+ to deny, but only rerolls ones.  Say he gets an absurdly low two successes, but gets one one.  He only needs one more success, has only one die to reroll, but needs only a 4+ on the reroll. The Dreddy, on the other hand, would need 5+ to deny this power, say he also gets 2 successes...he gets to reroll all or nothing...so he has to discard the two successes and take his chances on generating 3 5+s on 8 dice.  In this sort of situation, the reinforced aegis isn't much better...

 

Contesting the creation of a bloodthirster, say once again you have eight dice and need three successes to deny.  Obviously, you're probably screwed no matter what, the psycher probably gets a six and a one out of his first roll, but the chances of success are basically zero.  Same for the dreddy, but he gets to reroll eight dice (including the one success) instead of one.  The psycher has ZERO chance of converting one reroll into two additional sixes, the dreddy at least has a chance...an absurdly low one, but a chance.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well Aegis vs Reinforced Aegis is a different matter altogether. Lets keep it at the killiness of the Psyfleman vs the NDK and which is superior. It is a tough call from my theory hammering point of view, so maybe some have experience in fielding either. Things need to be complementary rather than awesome on their own merrits ;)

[march10k]

Survivability also needs to be a factor. I don't like that a NDK has to voluntarily enter plasma/melta range to be effective, and even at long range it's more probe to being hurt by lascannons, although without the risk of being one-shotted.

[Frater Cornelius]

So, I managed to conjure up two lists with two CDA (AM primary and GK)

Okay, here is the 1500 list:

HQ

Pask Vanquisher, LC

Vanquisher Wingman, LC

360

Coteaz

100

Inquisitor Ordo Hereticus, 3x skulls
34

Primaris lvl2 (hides behind the LR tanks to buff them)

Troops
2x Grenadiers, 3x melta, Taurox

310

2x Henchmen: 2 PC servitors, 1 Psyker, 2 Acolytes with bolters, Psyback (joined by the 2 inquisitors)

220


Heavy Support
Wyvern Battery
2x Wyvern

2x Psyfleman Dread

270

1499 Total

At 1850 take the list above, toss in a Vindicare Assassin, 2 Hydras (1 Squadron) and another lvl2 Primaris. Drop some upgrades somwhere because it is at 1859.

I like the list. But do you think it is superior is dakka, efficiency and killiness than what mech guard can conjure up at 1500? Psyflemen are solid ranged dakka, Psybacks are basically 2 extra Tauroxes with an 6++ due to Sanctuary. Loads of Warp Charges and Disciplines to roll on and secure access to Santic powers. At 1850 Vindicare can easily remove av13 and 14 and put a dent in super heavy tanks. Henchmen have the option to ride in the Psybacks with their respective inquisitor is too much anti infantry firepower is present, or provide 4 (most likely twin linked) plasma cannon shots a turn. It sounds solid to me and definitely more dakka than my previous 1500 list.

The question is, is there an even more efficient way with Guard that I missed? To do this list I would need to buy 2 Dreads and 2 Razorbacks, I have the rest at home and I can convert some of my IG to do that with no issue. But I still wanna save some cash

Be as honest as you can and help me bring holy to farthest regions of the galaxy

[march10k]

Natrually, anything that isn't pure guard is going to be inferior in the dakka department...but realize that you're not giving up dakka for inquisition, you're giving up dakka for psychic supremacy. The loss of dakka relative to a purely IG psychic solution is offset by the increase in psychic power. I don't use psychers at all, but if I did, I would go for the varsity team (GK), not the practice squad (IG).

 

/edit/ also, what is Coteaz's warlord trait? If it's more helpful than giving Pask preferred enemy (usually just going to be rerolling ones to hit, which with four shots per turn, WILL cone into play), then make GK the primary?

[Frater Cornelius]

GK do not have a table AFAIK. Coteaz can get the ones from the Rulebook. And I also do not agree in decrease in dakka. I am dropping 1 lvl2 primaris, 2 Hydras and a 3melta grenadier squad in taurox for the entire inquisition (also exchanging Pask Tank). That is a loss of 3 meltas, 8 TLAC skyfire shots, 2TLAC shots 20 rending shots and 1 PC shot for 7 more charges and thus more disciplines, 6TL s6ap4 shots, 2 Vanquisher shots and 2 LC shots (one of which has the Pask effect) and 8 TL s8 ap4 shots, Coteaz utility stuff and an increase in unit density. I see that as a solid increase is psychic and somewhat equal ground dakka but a solid increase in range where that dakka can be delivered (decrease in air but Psybacks and Psyflemen can fire in the air fairly well and divination is readily availible).

 

Here is a comparison. At 1500 without any psychic shenanigans, I can bring this:

 

Pask Punisher with HB sponsons, hull-HB, Dozer Blade, Relics

Executioner Wingman with PC sponsons, hull-HB, Dozer Blade

 

Tank Commander Vanquisher with LC

Vanquisher Wingman with LC

 

3x Grenadiers with 3 meltas in Taurox

 

Wyvern Battery

2x Wyvern

 

Hydra Battery

2x Hydra

 

1498 points.

 

At 1850 I can put in an Errant Knight if I drop 20 points somewhere or 2 more Veteran Squads, or 3x2 Sentinel Squadrons (or 2x3) or 2 Vendettas.

 

A bit more dakka and AV14 but not by a lot. Pask has 20 rending shots and HB, Plasmacutioner has 1 more PC shot than Servitors which cost a fraction of the Plasmacutioner. 3 more meltas an 1 more TLAC. Pasks shots can be replaced with Psyflemen and Psybacks, though not as efficient against av13 and av14 and against most MC, against the majority of targets this will be less overkill due to more units shooting.

Missing is also Coteaz Initiative utility and 11 Warp Charges and the Aegis, reducing my psychic play close to 0 as opposed to decent defense and hilerious offensive capabilities.

The shooty army will be less likely to fall apart from pressure due to av14 saturation but I feel is has WAY less versatility and thus less ways to cope with unexpected opponents and to play around evil things. And I think that psychic capabilities matter a lot, given how the greatest threats to this army are psychic death starts a la Jet Council and Screamer Star as well as mass summonings via FMC spam. GK offer preferred enemy to some degree, amazing anti daemon with reliable sanctic powers on vehicles and infantry and due to increased unit count it indirectly increase survivability against FMC spam since they can only effectively target one per FMC each turn.

Most other armies should crumble even turn 1 given that everything heavy can shoot at least up to 36" and with the really heavy stuff going from 48" up to 72".

 

Plus holy-ish units are a great fluffy addition and while it does not influence my final decision, it feels good to have those.

 

But in the end only one thing really matters: is it competitive. We can measure firepower and psychic powers forever. What matters is what brings more to the table and which list has the better chances of wiping the floor with the enemies corpses and drink from their delicious tears. I am tending to the AM/GK variant but until I have tried it I will not give ultimate judgement.

 

Opinions?

[Shaolin_Monkey]

Interesting thoughts.

I think one of the best things either Inquisiton or GK can offer to guard is their grenades and Hammerhand.

Both of these however are better utilised in more of an infantry gun line style army than the one you are using.

 

Think about a 50 man blob with Lascannons or autocannons with maybe even a priest just for some combat punch.

Then add in a GK grandmaster or Inquisitor or two with Rad Grenades and Hammerhand.

Now you guard attack at strength 5 while your opponents are at -1 toughness and you reroll to hit. Throw in some rerolls from the priest (possibly even on an invulnerable if you get lucky with powers) and you have a super scoring unit that has impressive shooting and even CC armies will likely only charge you once.

[march10k]

Sounds a lot like henchman blob cheese...

 

Here's my proposal:

 

HQ:    

 

Librarian ML3, warding stave, psybolt ammo, digital weapons (warlord)      

 

Troops:    

 

Strike squad 3 halberds, hammer, psybolt ammo 

 

380 points, fairly cheap, the strikes can deepstrike as a potent distraction (and probably score a tactical objective at the same time) or serve as counterassault.  The Librarian can be your warlord (hard to imagine an IG list with a less squishy warlord) and provide daemon insurance (take santic if facing daemons, divination if not).

[Shaolin_Monkey]

I was under the impression that you had to take your warlord from a combined arms detachment and not from an allied detachment.

So you would another troops choice or still take the warlord from IG?

 

Could be wrong though.

[Frater Cornelius]

There's a difference between CAD and allies. You can take as many CAD as you like, but use the full FOC rules, thus you need 1 HQ and 2 Troops minimum for each CAD. The CAD that includes your chosen warlord counts as your primary one.

Allied detachment only has a min. requirement of 1 HQ and 1 Troop but you only have a limited FOC. As the the CAD you can have as many as you wish. Most tourneys limit it to 1 additional CAD and 1 ally though.

 

The difference is that you can reduce the unit tax by taking an allied detachment if you are only after a single elite/fa/hs unit. If you want more than just one, you need to pay up and include 2 troops (higher tax).

[Shaolin_Monkey]

As I thought. And it does specify that the warlord can't come from an allied detachment correct?