GK or INQ allies

[march10k]

You're right, Seraphile.  I saw that a CAD gets to reroll warlord, and didn't see that the AD specifically bars itself from providing the warlord.  Now..There still is no rule saying that a CAD must provide your warlord, you can still use a character from a formation (such as the two in C:MT, but why would you want to???) as your warlord.  I just missed the text in the AD rules saying an AD can't provide warlord...You could, for another example, take an inquisitor as your warlord (which is super fluffy, actually), since he's a separate single-model detachment.

[Shaolin_Monkey]

Ooooohh. The inquisitor option does sound good.

 

Alternately you could add a second troops choice in and still take the GK Libby as the warlord.

[Frater Cornelius]

I just tried GK + AM and it was the dogs bollocks (read: awesome).

 

The list:

 

Coteaz (warlord)

 

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, lvl1, 3 servo skulls

 

Pask Vanquisher, hull-LC

Executioner, hull-HB

 

Priest

 

10 Purifiers

7 Halberds, 2 Daemon Hammers

Sarge, MC Halberd

 

2x Henchmen

2 Acolytes, 2 Bolters

2 Servitors, 2 PC

1 Psyker

Razorback, TLHB, psy ammo

 

2x Veterans

Forward sentries

AC

Taurox, TLAC

 

1 Stormraven, TLMM, TLAsC, psy ammo

 

1495 points.

 

Everyone rolled on Divination. One psyker had ignore cover (totally paid off, the PC ate a whole TDA squad while night fighting). One Psyker and Coteaz had the 4++ ability and everyone had Prescience. Pask always got the 4++ and Divination was distributed as needed. Other than that, the Purifiers used Force just in case to instakill the Champ, and, sure enough, Halberds completely ripped the squad apart and Champ died in the challenge because the Sarge got a single wound through to him.

Priest joined the Purifiers in the Raven, they completely ate a tac squad with the Emperor's Champion in one assault right out of the Raven. I lost 1 Veteran Squad, 1 Taurox, 1 Psyback. Enemy was tabled in bottom of turn 4 (had 3 models left in bottom of 3).

 

Henchmen offer darn bloody cheap PC, a warp charge with a roll on any table but conjuration and another shooty transport. One henchmen squad above with psyback costet 110 points. Let that sink in. With buffs they took out plenty of units approx. 4-5 times their cost. Since I have a full Purifier squad, I wonder if a GKSS is necessary. Same setup costs 10 points less, but I will make them shooty so approx. same cost. It is worth it compared to henchmen? No idea.

[march10k]

Henchmen offer darn bloody cheap PC

This guy?

Yep, he's awesome...actually, what's really awesome is two of them firing from the hatch of a chimera!!! Now, that's what I call broken...105 points (assuming Coteaz) gets you a psycher and two plasma cannon servitors, plus a super-scoring chimera. The 10 point psycher is just a warp charge generator, but 105 points for a heavy bolter, multilaser, and two plasma cannons firing from an AV12 vehicle while objective-camping...?!?

865 points gets you Coteaz and six of these, plus a psyfleman for reinforced aegis cheese. Add a ML3 libby for good measure, and you're at 1100 with ridiculous dakka, 12 superscorers (albiet the warbands are pretty squishy if you blow up the chimera) and a fairly ridiculous pool of 10+D6 warp charges. At 1850, you still have room for your allied army to be a CAD, say pask, 2x vets (with more chimeras), and ~200 points of wyverns/hydras.

[Frater Cornelius]

I do prefer Purifiers and Paladins though. Let me explain: The biggest draw of a GK detachment is that not only do they offer rock solid 0"-24" board control, they serve as an assault deterrent. Loads of henchmen are nice, but if 1 thing gets close, it all breaks down. With paladins and purifiers shooting 8 and 16 s7 ap4 rending shots respectively in addition to their SB shots at people while beinging I6 ap3 and I1 ap2 weapons for those who are wanting a piece of that pie, they make ridiculously good mid field units and prime candidates to enter a Storm Raven. And this is the reason I want GK, that mid field control and melee options are smexy.

[hendrik]

Yep, he's awesome...actually, what's really awesome is two of them firing from the hatch of a chimera!!!  Now, that's what I call broken...105 points (assuming Coteaz) gets you a psycher and two plasma cannon servitors, plus a super-scoring chimera.  The 10 point psycher is just a warp charge generator, but 105 points for a heavy bolter, multilaser, and two plasma cannons firing from an AV12 vehicle while objective-camping...?!?

 

865 points gets you Coteaz and six of these, plus a psyfleman for reinforced aegis cheese.  Add a ML3 libby for good measure, and you're at 1100 with ridiculous dakka, 12 superscorers (albiet the warbands are pretty squishy if you blow up the chimera) and a fairly ridiculous pool of 10+D6 warp charges.  At 1850, you still have room for your allied army to be a CAD, say pask, 2x vets (with more chimeras), and ~200 points of wyverns/hydras.

 

don't forget mind lock. you'll want an inquisitor in there if you want a reliable firebase

[march10k]

That's actually a very close call if only taking 2 plasma cannons...at 40 points...is a 25 point addition to eliminate the 50% chance they won't shoot worthwhile?  If I want to spam out five allied inquisitors, I should at least make it three plasma cannons per chimera!

[Frater Cornelius]

At 50% chance to mind-lock, you are essentially halving your present PC shooting. Not efficient.

[march10k]

 

Yep, he's awesome...actually, what's really awesome is two of them firing from the hatch of a chimera!!!  Now, that's what I call broken...105 points (assuming Coteaz) gets you a psycher and two plasma cannon servitors, plus a super-scoring chimera.  The 10 point psycher is just a warp charge generator, but 105 points for a heavy bolter, multilaser, and two plasma cannons firing from an AV12 vehicle while objective-camping...?!?

 

865 points gets you Coteaz and six of these, plus a psyfleman for reinforced aegis cheese.  Add a ML3 libby for good measure, and you're at 1100 with ridiculous dakka, 12 superscorers (albiet the warbands are pretty squishy if you blow up the chimera) and a fairly ridiculous pool of 10+D6 warp charges.  At 1850, you still have room for your allied army to be a CAD, say pask, 2x vets (with more chimeras), and ~200 points of wyverns/hydras.

 

don't forget mind lock. you'll want an inquisitor in there if you want a reliable firebase

 

That's actually a very close call if only taking 2 plasma cannons...at 40 points...is a 25 point addition to eliminate the 50% chance they won't shoot worthwhile?  If I want to spam out five allied inquisitors, I should at least make it three plasma cannons per chimera!

 

/edit/

 

Also, some TOs will limit the number of allowed detachments to prevent abuse...with five solitary inquisitors, I'd have seven detachments...I can't remember how many INQ you can fit in a detachment, but I would expect the tournament limit to be 2-3 dets.  I can get a second inq from the coteaz det, I suppose, leaving a deficit of  four?  I guess I could do two tri-cannon warbands with inqisitors and four plasma-spam warbands without?

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, I just had 2 games with GK + AM. One was a stomp against another pure GK and one was very close against a pretty good CSM player. And yes, invisibility was at it again Oo

Anyway, here is the list:

Coteaz (Warlord)

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, 2 skulls

Pask Vanquisher, Hull-LC

Executioner, Hull-HB

10 Purifiers, 7 halberds, 2 Hammers, warding staff on sarge

2x Veterans, forward sentries, AC, Taurox

2x Henchmen

2 acylotes with bolters, 2 servitors with PC, 1 Psyker, Razorback with Psy Ammo, TLHB

2x Stormraven, TLMM, TLAsC, psy ammo

Wyvern Battery

2x Wyvern

exactly 1850

Here is the performance:

tier 1: Stormraven, purifiers, Wyvern, Taurox (scoring)

tier 2: taurox (shooting), veterans, executioner, coteaz

tier 3: paskquisher, henchmen

MVP: purifiers and their SR

Henchmen totally underperformed. Coteaz was nice, second INQ completely useless, Pask was useless, even if there was armour and TDA. In the 4th turn I was losing by 4VP. Very hard to get out of there, his position was very solid. Too solid. But where henchmen failed, the SR and purifiers took over. Won't go into details but with some smart moves I managed to grab 3 objectives and complete 4 TO, resulting in a 3 point lead and complete board dominance. In one psychic, shooing and assault phase. The SR and purifiers were golden. Both games. Veterans are as solid as always as was their Taurox. Also, I love the mind strike missiles

The list managed to get a lot of pressure on me because I had no melee deterrent and Henchmen were bad and invisibility on top of that. Nurgle Bikes and Nurgle Talons shredded through them. With all that in mind, I tried to replace the underperforming units with something new:

Coteaz (warlord)

Company Command Squad, AC, vox, camo cloaks, Chimera

10 Purifiers, 7 halberds, 2 hammers, sarge with MC halberd (staff was fun but too expensive)

Platoon:

PCS, AC, vox, Taurox

Infantry Squad 1, AC, vox, Taurox

Infantry Squad 2, AC, vox, Taurox

Heavy Weapon Team, 3 LC

5 greys knights, Psycannon, Razorback with TLHB and psy ammo

5 greys knights, Psycannon, Razorback with TLHB and psy ammo

Stormraven, TLMM, TLAsC, psy ammo

Stormraven, TLMM, TLAsC, psy ammo

Wyvern Battery

2x Wyvern

1847 points. This one has tougher GK detachment and a decent melee deterrent. The IG part has less AV14, less accurate shooting and less survivability in cover (lack for forward sentries) but orders, 3 more super-scorers (I deploy transports empty for more presence and dakka), more bodies. In general this list has better saturation and more dakka. I have no idea how to move the 2nd version of that list to 1500 points though. I want to have the second Raven in there but I guess there is no way to tune it down to 1500 points otherwise.. dropping 1 Raven and the Wyvern brings me to 1492. But my problem is that without the 2nd Raven this list lacks anti-tank. AV14 spam would hurt me a lot.

Anyway, opinions? C&C needed for both lists. I somewhat prefer the 2nd, but I only have tried the first.

[march10k]

LESS AV14?  I don't think "less" is the word!  At this point, honestly, I'm wondering why you're bothering with AM at all...You can make warbands that are a lot more survivable than what you were fielding before.  Bolter-joes are 5 ppm, just like regular IG, only with boltguns instead of lasguns.  With carapace armor, they're 9ppm.  The only thing they can't do is take a heavy weapon, but that's what their transports are for (psyback spam?)...so it looks to me like you're taking IG for the sole purpose of fielding two wyverns, but it's really become a GK list, through and through.

[Frater Cornelius]

Just Wyvern? I suppose the 6 super scorers, 7 AC, 3 LC and a Chimera is nothing to note then. The enemy might disagree.

Also, less AV14 is exactly the word, 2 less :D and yeah, th AM detachment is shrinking but to be honest, what do AM do better than GK? cheap scoring bodies and their transports (frankly, platoon or vets are still and will always be superior to henchmen) and long ranged firepower.

SR is the superior flyer and purifiers are the superior close range threat. But platoons are superior scoring bodies due to their low cost, Taurox is a top transport but I hesitate to call it better than a HB psyback.

Leman Russ are great, but as it stands, the SR do a superior job in anything but overwhelming firepower. You are a mech player (as am I, lol), but I want to see whether just heavy weapon spam with GK up front can be just as effective in my list.

[march10k]

Just Wyvern? I suppose the 6 super scorers, 7 AC, 3 LC and a Chimera is nothing to note then. The enemy might disagree.

Also, less AV14 is exactly the word, 2 less and yeah, th AM detachment is shrinking but to be honest, what do AM do better than GK? cheap scoring bodies and their transports (frankly, platoon or vets are still and will always be superior to henchmen) and long ranged firepower.

SR is the superior flyer and purifiers are the superior close range threat. But platoons are superior scoring bodies due to their low cost, Taurox is a top transport but I hesitate to call it better than a HB psyback.

Leman Russ are great, but as it stands, the SR do a superior job in anything but overwhelming firepower. You are a mech player (as am I, lol), but I want to see whether just heavy weapon spam with GK up front can be just as effective in my list.

What I'm saying is exactly that: nothing of note. For similar points, you can get a similar number of super-scorers in the form of warbands from GK. A henchman with a boltgun costs the same as a guardsman with a lasgun. A GK chimera is ten points cheaper than an IG chimera, and there's obviously the option of giving the henchmen a psyback as their transport instead, and GK allows you to replace autocannons with psycannons...twice the firepower if stationary, albiet half the range, with the bonus that they get to shoot at full BS on the move instead of snap-shooting. AM do not do cheap scoring bodies better than GK. A henchman with CCW and laspistol is cheaper than a guardsman. With the same armor save, and other than LD8 instead of LD7, the same statline as the guardsman. Platoons are NOT superior in any way to henchmen, except for their ability to create a 50-man blob and then be ordered to FRFSRF, but in order to do that, you have to throw 250+ points into a single unit, which defeats the "cheap spam" argument. And the henchmen can have heavy weapons, on servitors, more than the one per squad that guardsmen are allowed. I'll say it again, super-scoring guardsmen are not superior to superscoring henchmen. So that brings me back to my original statement, that the only thing you're getting out of your shrinking guard contingent that you could not get from C:GK is...wyverns.

[Frater Cornelius]

Just Wyvern? I suppose the 6 super scorers, 7 AC, 3 LC and a Chimera is nothing to note then. The enemy might disagree.

Also, less AV14 is exactly the word, 2 less and yeah, th AM detachment is shrinking but to be honest, what do AM do better than GK? cheap scoring bodies and their transports (frankly, platoon or vets are still and will always be superior to henchmen) and long ranged firepower.

SR is the superior flyer and purifiers are the superior close range threat. But platoons are superior scoring bodies due to their low cost, Taurox is a top transport but I hesitate to call it better than a HB psyback.

Leman Russ are great, but as it stands, the SR do a superior job in anything but overwhelming firepower. You are a mech player (as am I, lol), but I want to see whether just heavy weapon spam with GK up front can be just as effective in my list.

What I'm saying is exactly that: nothing of note. For similar points, you can get a similar number of super-scorers in the form of warbands from GK. A henchman with a boltgun costs the same as a guardsman with a lasgun. A GK chimera is ten points cheaper than an IG chimera, and there's obviously the option of giving the henchmen a psyback as their transport instead, and GK allows you to replace autocannons with psycannons...twice the firepower if stationary, albiet half the range, with the bonus that they get to shoot at full BS on the move instead of snap-shooting. AM do not do cheap scoring bodies better than GK. A henchman with CCW and laspistol is cheaper than a guardsman. With the same armor save, and other than LD8 instead of LD7, the same statline as the guardsman. Platoons are NOT superior in any way to henchmen, except for their ability to create a 50-man blob and then be ordered to FRFSRF, but in order to do that, you have to throw 250+ points into a single unit, which defeats the "cheap spam" argument. And the henchmen can have heavy weapons, on servitors, more than the one per squad that guardsmen are allowed. I'll say it again, super-scoring guardsmen are not superior to superscoring henchmen. So that brings me back to my original statement, that the only thing you're getting out of your shrinking guard contingent that you could not get from C:GK is...wyverns.

I disagree. The humble Platoon is superior because of one little thing: it is more reliable. In a game that is about random dice rolls, that is huge.

Let's analyse.

First and foremost, what is the job of platoons? Gun line. They do not need to do anything else. In a pure IG list the Veterans and Tanks can make their advance while in my list it's the transports and GK that go forward. A platoon sits back, guards to rear, scores and provides heavy weapon support. So I will be comparing the Platoon to the henchmen in that regard only, because that is the job both must take. I do not need advancing units, I need long ranged heavy weapons that deals with heavier stuff, preferably tanks seeing as mid field GK units and transports do little against AV14, deal unreliably with AV13 and Stormraven are at the mercy of reserve rolls (unless you invest in a landing platform).

And finally, we can assume that both henchmen and a platoon require Prescience for peak efficiency. Since that is the primaris power, I will take this on the equation for the most part.

My preferred platoon looks like this:

PCS, LC, vox

Infantry Squad 1, LC, vox, Taurox

Infantry Squad 2, LC, vox, Taurox

Infantry Squad 3, LC, vox, Taurox

To enhance this platoon I also have a

CCS, LC, vox, camo pants

This clocks in at 420 + 91 = 511

There are several ways you can make a henchmen fit in a similar role.

1st version: advancing melta

3-9 acolytes, 3 meltas, 0-6 bolters

1 psyker

Chimera

107-131 points. If you take 3 that amounts to 321-383. Add the 100 points Coteaz tax and the cost difference becomes negligible. Now, 9 meltas is a solid amount of shooting, but the drawback is obvious: they need to be within 6" to be effective. By the time they reach that spot, the most dangerous targets have already done their job. In worst case scenario they will get de-mechanized turn 1-2 and will be stuck and can either be ignores of shot to hell in 1 shooting phase. Also, noone will be left to stay back and score objectives at the back.

Lascannons win this one because of their range and because prescience can not be casted on embarked units (and when they disembark, they are toast). The only advantage is that you get one more charge and one more psyker stuck in a transport.

2nd version: joker LC

1 Joker

1 psyker

8 acolytes with bolters

Chimera

This is 170 points. Take 3 and were at 510. Add the Coteaz tax and the difference is greater. Joker has a 1/3 chance to make the squad more effective with either 12" more range or rending on the guns. Bolters are also stronger than lasguns. But, the Platoon has more survivability. How, you may ask? Because they can go to ground freely with no drawback as long as the company commander is alive because he can order them to get back up. 3+ in ruins is better than 4+. As for the order? Almost auto-pass because I have either a GK character or the Primaris in my platoon as well as a vox, making it a Ld9/Ld10 rerollable.

Outside of the Joker random benefit, it is weaker than a weapon team because is has only 1 wound. Of cause, this is only a very small benefit because s6+ will insta kill the team, but sometimes it can be a benefit. This can also be a drawback because it is harder to hide though. FRFSRF can somewhat decrease the gap between bolters and lasguns. ThJoker HF and MM are only a marginal benefit because when a unit is that close, the flamer won't be of much use and the MM is too short ranged to be fired in T1 at full effectiveness. Also, it does not help when the unit is dead.

Overall, orders make the platoon stronger than this comp because they are better at their job: holding the backfield and superior LC shooting due to orders.

A 3rd backfield henchman config is possible. You use PC servitors, but their duty is av12 or less and MEQ/TEQ, so they do not fit the role I need them in. I can LC down TEQ and torrent down MEQ with other guns. They also require a baby-sitting inquisitor to be effective due to mind-lock.

So, let's come to the general benefits. A platoon can get orders and given the IC in the platoon and vox, it comes down to Ld9/Ld10 rerollable, so virtually an auto-pass. Orders are way more reliable than psychic powers, because a) they can not be denied they are easier to get through c) they are always available and do not depend on rolling them d) have more options e) do not kill the psyker and possibly his squad (perils).

Orders allow to go to ground freely, ignore cover, gives tank hunter and monster hunter which is HUGE when you consider that that is their job, shoot and run and some other situational uses. The only thing that Divination and Biomancy can offer is ignoring cover for the own squad, 4++, overwatch at full BS (negligible) and +3 toughness. Some of those a very good but need to be rolled and casted first. Way less reliable.

Furthermore, a platoon has the option of being a blob, which is useful at times when there is little terrain to hide in (and there are too many AT weapon to make transports save) and very useful on the Eternal War missions where there usually is only a handful of objectives to hold.

So, at the same and possibly cheaper cost you get a unit than simply outperforms henchmen when it comes to tank busting, MC hunting and long ranged support and has better survivability and more deployment options.

As for the transports, I still prefer the Taurox because of TLAC. He can threaten light vehicles a lot better, can glance AV13 and has some AA capabilities. The Psyback has 1 more warp charge, but I already have 2 of those and 2 SR, that is enough anti-demon. The INQ chimera has 5 firepoints but is still inferior in most other aspects, so don't bring me the AV12, it is so big that firing at AV10 side is practically easier than the front, and the shooting is not twin linked, this a psyback and taurox have more reliable and stronger shooting.

I have tried both and I prefer the humble platoon over henchmen any day of the week when it comes to my GK/IG list. You can use them but keep them as far away from me as you can

[Quozzo]

 

 

2nd version: joker LC

1 Joker

1 psyker

8 acolytes with bolters

Chimera

This is 170 points. Take 3 and were at 510. Add the Coteaz tax and the difference is greater. Joker has a 1/3 chance to make the squad more effective with either 12" more range or rending on the guns. Bolters are also stronger than lasguns. But, the Platoon has more survivability. How, you may ask? Because they can go to ground freely with no drawback as long as the company commander is alive because he can order them to get back up. 3+ in ruins is better than 4+. As for the order? Almost auto-pass because I have either a GK character or the Primaris in my platoon as well as a vox, making it a Ld9/Ld10 rerollable.

Outside of the Joker random benefit, it is weaker than a weapon team because is has only 1 wound. Of cause, this is only a very small benefit because s6+ will insta kill the team, but sometimes it can be a benefit. This can also be a drawback because it is harder to hide though. FRFSRF can somewhat decrease the gap between bolters and lasguns. ThJoker HF and MM are only a marginal benefit because when a unit is that close, the flamer won't be of much use and the MM is too short ranged to be fired in T1 at full effectiveness. Also, it does not help when the unit is dead.

Overall, orders make the platoon stronger than this comp because they are better at their job: holding the backfield and superior LC shooting due to orders.

You can't include the Coteaz tax for taking a warband as you need him for the 2 storm ravens, 2 strike squads and purifiers whilst also discounting the HQ needed to take the IG. You also mention that you almost autopass morale checks because you have an GK character but neglect to mention that tax too, not to mention that Coteaz is stubborn and Ld10.

 

If you want a gun line I suggest the following:

 

1x Jokaero 

1x Psyker 

4x acolytes with storm bolters. 

chimera

Total: 128.

 

That four times gives you 512. Just one point more than your platoon but each storm bolter is firing 2 shots out of each firing port along with the versatile LC/MM/HF. Storm bolters are more bang for your buck at 12"-24" over the bolter and are 3 points cheaper per shot. Not much, but if your looking to increase the numbers of storm bolters in each warband then it quickly adds up and you wont run out of space. I prefer 2 jokaero at least in any squad because you get yet another roll on their table of fun.

[march10k]

10 guardsmen with no upgrades are 25% more expensive than 10 henchmen with no upgrades.  If we give the henchmen boltguns, they cost the same as the guardsmen, have better guns.  Say we do that, to keep starting points and weapon ranges even.  Ok, you want to add a lascannon to your squad, that brings you to 70 points.  If I want to replace one of my henchmen with a jokaero, that brings me to 80 points.  Are the ten extra points worth the random squad upgrade and the choice between three weapons, as needed in the heat of the moment, for the Jokaero?  Yeah, I think so.  Then there's the matter of transports.  Your taurox is five points less than my chimera.  For that, you get better side armor, worse front armor, and two twinlinked S7 shots to my six shots, half S5 and half S6.  S7 certainly is better than S5/6, but averaging three hits is better than averaging 1.5 hits, and AV12 on the front is a bigger advantage than AV11 on the side.  You also pay five points for a vox.  

 

So my squad (don't decide for me how I would build a "guard-equivalent" warband, then proceed to tell me that what you made for me is inferior!) costs ten points more than yours.  What's the difference?  Random Jokaero upgrade (even if your claim that free carapace armor or free refractor fields all around is not going to make the squad better were credible, you still forgot the 1/6 chance of getting TWO upgrades, so it's higher than a 1/3 chance even so!), bolters versus lasguns, orders, Jokaero's choice of weapons, and chimera versus taurox.  I would say that orders cancel out jokaero upgrades, and chimera versus taurox is a matter of personal preference, so that leaves us with boltguns versus lasguns and the Jokaero's three weapons versus just a lascannon.  I would say that comparison favors the warband.

 

That's just the infantry squads, though. You also need a PCS.  You've drawn yours up at 55 points.  Okay, Jokaero plus four boltgunners is...55 points.  Here, the advantage is clear.  I still have the Jokaero weapons and the Jokaero squad buff.  Of course...I don't have to take this squad at all, and I wouldn't. I'd take another one like above, or none at all.  And you shouldn't take a PCS (already a target, since it issues orders, is super-scoring, and only has five bodies to kill) and make it both more painful to lose and more likely to die sooner by giving it a lascannon...

 

 

 I prefer 2 jokaero at least in any squad because you get yet another roll on their table of fun.

 

Not to mention another lascannon/multimelta/heavy flamer?

[Frater Cornelius]

You do not get another roll, just +1 on the roll, reducing the chance that you get the best result (+12"). The versatility of jokers also counts for nothing since as I said I have a certain job in mind and little else beyond that. And yes, I can include Coteaz as a tax, but you are right because I'd him anyway even though I am free to choose a HQ for my GK detach, it might be a cheap Inq for all I care. As for the orders, I can get the inevitable primaris or some cheap commissars to join. GK are not necessary for that auto pass.

I can see where you get the idea. Stormbolters are way superior to lasguns and a joker is a LC with some ribbons tapen on. But here is the thing. Such a small squad must deploy inside it's transport lest they be shot to pieces turn 1. This limits it's effectiveness because with a cover camping squad I still have the transport to advance. This means more super scorers that are actually availible.

Second, a Chimera is not hard to open and once it is, the 6 man squad will have a harder time surviving. Third, while the extra warp charge is nice, the psyker is limited to witchfires while inside. In my opinion having more boots and wheels on the ground is more important. 31 dudes with 35 wounds (37 dudes with 40+ wounds when counting CCS and the 2 ICs) in cover and 3 transports are just harder to move than 24 wounds inside 4 transports.

And finally, everything is eclipsed by the fact that the platoon can ignore cover, gobto ground and shoot normally next turn and gain monster/tank hunter because the commander looked at them funny.

[Quozzo]

It must be a difference in mentality. Playing GK (or any SM) I know how effective multiple small units are (MSU) and not over spending on bodies with bolters who cannot shoot inside the transports due to only having 5 fire ports will make all the difference (taurox only have 4 right?). In the end we can't play the game for you, only give our advice. It's up to you if you take it.

[Frater Cornelius]

It must be a difference in mentality. Playing GK (or any SM) I know how effective multiple small units are (MSU) and not over spending on bodies with bolters who cannot shoot inside the transports due to only having 5 fire ports will make all the difference (taurox only have 4 right?). In the end we can't play the game for you, only give our advice. It's up to you if you take it.

 

I used to play SW razor spam, so MSU is well within my graps. MSU with 3+ that is, not with t3 5+ :P

But in the end, I am not saying that henchmen are bad, I am saying that henchmen are bad for my needs. They make good fire bases and advancing units but poor cover campers and long ranged anti-tank/MC support unit. It is the first turn shooting that I value above all and henchmen won't do it as good as a platoon with orders.

There are certainly scenarios where I'd say that henchmen are superior to a platoon, like 2+ killer with PC spam. Just not this time ;)

[march10k]

I see that you ignored my post entirely Must have hit close to the mark....

[Frater Cornelius]

I see that you ignored my post entirely Must have hit close to the mark....

No, I have not. Henchmen taken 1v1 against GM may be superior but it is the orders that make GM superior. I do not see Jokers ignoring cover at will or gaining Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter. Compared to those most buffs are irrelevant. Rending may get close but the chance of getting it is too low to consider it a valid strategy. Orders are always there and can always be taken into consideration. Also, the Chimera can not even scratch av13 and won't do anything against av12 most of the time. Taurox has a real chance against av12 and can at least do something against av13. The Chimera may be superior against infantry but neither GK or IG care much for infantry with their arsenal.

I still find GM more reliable at busting tanks and MC at long range, that is my point and the reason why I will not acknowledge Henchmen until you give me something better ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Here is another question though: what do melee henchmen and Land Raiders bring to IG. Crusader + CDA + grenade OX inquisitor + priest costs around 200-220 points and comes with 3 kinds of grenades (psyk-out, rad and psy-stroke), hatred, fearless, 3++ up front, which can become a 3++ rerollable in melee and comes with a huge melee bang. AND the CDA strike at I6 with 4 attacks on the charge. Pack them in a SR or LR, point them at something and say that you want it deleted. You can also put Coteaz in there and have him roll on Sanctic with the chance to get Cleansing Flame for MOAR DAKKA, Hammerhand for s6 hilarity or Sanctuary for 2++ same on crusaders and 4++ save on CDA. The only thing they can not handle is vehicles and walkers. I believe this can be a very effective front line choppa unit. They can not dakka nearly as well as purifiers but they certainly are en par when it comes to melee (until they are inevitably nerfed in their next codex).

 

Land Raiders bring even more AV14 to guard. We have Leman Russ, and some are actually superior to the shooting a Raider brings. But a LR is more survivable because of side and back 14 and with his 4 HP. The Godhammer version can also pressure 2 vehicles a turn, which is not bad at all. It is also an assault vehicle for some melee units AM or GK bring. But it costs almost twice as much as a Russ.

 

Worth it?

[march10k]

I see that you ignored my post entirely Must have hit close to the mark....

No, I have not. Henchmen taken 1v1 against GM may be superior but it is the orders that make GM superior. I do not see Jokers ignoring cover at will or gaining Tank Hunter/Monster Hunter. Compared to those most buffs are irrelevant. Rending may get close but the chance of getting it is too low to consider it a valid strategy. Orders are always there and can always be taken into consideration. Also, the Chimera can not even scratch av13 and won't do anything against av12 most of the time. Taurox has a real chance against av12 and can at least do something against av13. The Chimera may be superior against infantry but neither GK or IG care much for infantry with their arsenal.

I still find GM more reliable at busting tanks and MC at long range, that is my point and the reason why I will not acknowledge Henchmen until you give me something better

Bube, nothing could convince me that you would ever admit that henchmen have value. You're pretending that orders are always available in copious quantities and that leadership tests are never failed. I'm not saying that it's incorrect to say that guardsmen are superior to henchmen, just that they're not superior enough to justify a separate FOC. As for chimeras versus taurox, you're not only pretending that superscoring transports are the only way to kill enemy AV12/13 vehicles, and it's easy to just dismiss off the fact of twice as many hits, but you haven't really supported your position other than to say that "there are other ways to kill infantry." So funny that there are other ways to kill troops, but no other ways to kill vehicles...hmm?

Here is another question though: what do melee henchmen and Land Raiders bring to IG. Crusader + CDA + grenade OX inquisitor + priest costs around 200-220 points and comes with 3 kinds of grenades (psyk-out, rad and psy-stroke), hatred, fearless, 3++ up front, which can become a 3++ rerollable in melee and comes with a huge melee bang. AND the CDA strike at I6 with 4 attacks on the charge. Pack them in a SR or LR, point them at something and say that you want it deleted. You can also put Coteaz in there and have him roll on Sanctic with the chance to get Cleansing Flame for MOAR DAKKA, Hammerhand for s6 hilarity or Sanctuary for 2++ same on crusaders and 4++ save on CDA. The only thing they can not handle is vehicles and walkers. I believe this can be a very effective front line choppa unit. They can not dakka nearly as well as purifiers but they certainly are en par when it comes to melee (until they are inevitably nerfed in their next codex).

Land Raiders bring even more AV14 to guard. We have Leman Russ, and some are actually superior to the shooting a Raider brings. But a LR is more survivable because of side and back 14 and with his 4 HP. The Godhammer version can also pressure 2 vehicles a turn, which is not bad at all. It is also an assault vehicle for some melee units AM or GK bring. But it costs almost twice as much as a Russ.

Worth it?

~shrug~ Guard are always looking for help in the melee department. But, face it, you're running GK now, with a splash of IG. The question is "what are the guardsmen doing for you that you can't to with stuff from C:GK?" Anyway, you can get that from inquisition, too...I've seen some really nasty inquisitorial deathstars.

[Frater Cornelius]

The question was phrased differently though, so you're not helping. Besides, I still run pure Guard, GK/AM is still in development.