Drop Pod Command Squad and Close Combat Captain

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Greetings Brothers of Dorn,

 

So I have been pulled astray many a time from my beloved Crimson Fists. Dark Angels, Blood Angels even filthy Tau have all side tracked me. But I've finally done it and got the Codex coming and started to put together some of my guys.

 

So to tactics and questions!

 

I plan on a large Drop Pod army because I love Drop Pods. Even back in 5th edition when I would get owned Drop pods were borrowed and tons of fun and I love them always have always will. I figure they probably go fairly well with Crimson Fists now seeing as they are more guerilla strike force anyway (depending on your opinion after Rynn's World.)

 

So for a 2000 pts List I came up with a fairly nice list I have that I like however having not played a game of 7th and only having gotten about 8 games of 6th in I need some help before I commit totally to this.

 

My question is thus:

 

I plan on a Captain with Relic Blade Artificer Armor and Stormshield. Added to this would be a Mastery Level 2 Libby with Force Staff. I was thinking of adding two Techmarines with Harnesses to help add to the shooting as well as PF attacks at Str 8. I was going to load all four of these individuals up into a Pod with a 5 Man Command Squad with 4 Plasma Guns and Apoth. I understand the Command Squad is counter to a Close Combat HQ but my thoughts were dropping this unit in as a major distraction/must deal with unit. Captain and Techmarines to Tank shots. Squad to rapid fire stuff to death until my opponent charges or I get a better chance to charge them. While I understand this unit is an "all eggs in one basket" I think it does well for a Counter punch while giving me the Plasma I need for my army.

 

I planned on a barebones Sternguard Squad with Ironclad podded escort.

 

20 scouts (10 Snipers & 2 Land Speeder storms)

 

And lastly 2 Tac Squads with a Plasma gun and Heavy Bolter.

 

I understand Pedro is the man for CF and I do intend to use him but I want to try lists without him (I know gasp).

 

Anyway my main question is about the Captain and Libby and Techmarines all added to a Command Squad.

I will happily take any comments or suggestions about the rest of the list as well. I know there is practically no Anti Air at the moment and I plan to get two Storm Talons with Skyhammers to handle this for future lists.

Thanks,

DoC

 

 

[minigun762]

What are you planning on giving the Witch... Librarian as far as powers? That would play heavily on whether it's a worthwhile addition.

 

As for techmarines, I think one is plenty really since it's mostly about an extra 2+ save and a bit of shooting.

 

My worry is always the risk of too many eggs in a single basket.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Thanks Minigun. That's something I was wondering. I was going to give the "witch" the Biomancy powers with his staff. Let him have a potential for T7 and S7 plus the wounds. I was thinking all powers from it to allow some Smite shots if needed. Plus with the staff S9 even AP4 would be awesome.

I was wondering about the techmarine's. I saw all your posts about Drop Pod Command squads and figured you had probably gotten some experience with it so I figured you were the man to ask.

 

I did want to ask should it be a plasma squad or a Meltagun squad? The meltaguns pop tanks and give me the ability to charge but Plasma gives me more shots. I'm kind of torn. I'm fairly certain this is going to be a "meta" specific thing but since I am in the middle of real life moving my family from one continent to another I don't have time for anything other than "theoryhammer" at the moment.

 

I appreciate any help you or anyone else can provide with this past experiences etc.

 

DoC

[minigun762]

I haven't used it yet.

For the Witch, I'd like Psychic Scream but it doesn't add anything to a tank busting squad.

 

My logic with plasma vs melta is melta squads will eventually want to assault a target whereas plasma wants to stay out of combat. This means that points spent on assault upgrades are worthwhile with melta and wasted on plasma squads.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

That's what I was thinking but also most of the time I find targets I want to assault are usually better served by getting a few rounds of plasma in the face. I'm at a real dilemma because obviously you use melta to kill the tanks and I suppose four shots of Str 8 AP1 to the face aren't bad either. Then you can assault it later. I just get this urge to use the melta as a suicide pod on a tank and let it be that.

 

What about just using four flamers? Allows for assault and a nice anti infantry template could be good. Seriously torn here on this. It would be easy if I could get some regular games in. I'd try all three and see which worked the best.

 

Anyone else have an idea thoughts or experience on this?

[minigun762]

With flamers, I'm liking them less en mass because the wounds are limited by the range of the template now.

 

I like plasma more on Sternguard because it pairs better with hellfire rounds

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Maybe put the Heavy Flamers on Sternguard and a few combi Flamers if it comes to that? Leave the plasma spam to a Command squad?

 

Not sure I see the improvement of Combi Plasma on Sternguard over 4 - 5 man Command Squad with Plasma? I see what your saying about hellfire rounds but wouldn't you prefer constant plasma?

 

Curious as to your thought process on this?

[Imren]

On your drop podded command squad put them all with plasmaguns and have a apothecary with them for survivability. You drop them against elit infantry and MC.

 

On your drop podded sternguard you put combimelta, because their spec ammo are close to plasma shots in terms of stats, so no benefit really to pay for plasma on sternguard, Also you put your libby with termie armour and storm shield with the sternguard squad, and make sure he is up front to take incoming shots, he screens off the incoming shots from your vulnerable sternguards, and also gives a serious close combat punch, add a heavy flamer and you're deterring assaults, and have some antihorde measures, AND squad still can assault! A more versatile unit can probabably not be made in the codex.

[minigun762]

Not sure I see the improvement of Combi Plasma on Sternguard over 4 - 5 man Command Squad with Plasma? I see what your saying about hellfire rounds but wouldn't you prefer constant plasma?

 

Curious as to your thought process on this?

Say you have 7-8 SG with 3-4 combi weapons.

If they are combi melta, you'll fry a tank but those other bolters are wasted.

If they are combi plasma, the special ammo will likely still be useful.

[Imren]

 

Not sure I see the improvement of Combi Plasma on Sternguard over 4 - 5 man Command Squad with Plasma? I see what your saying about hellfire rounds but wouldn't you prefer constant plasma?

 

Curious as to your thought process on this?

Say you have 7-8 SG with 3-4 combi weapons.

If they are combi melta, you'll fry a tank but those other bolters are wasted.

If they are combi plasma, the special ammo will likely still be useful.

 

 

Why would the bolters be wasted in the case of combimelta??

 

The thing is they have different tactical usage, combimeltas on podded sternguards are :cussing excellent because you drop within melta range of a enemy troop carriers with troops inside, pop the carrier, and then next turn if the troops choose not to assault you (A2 and a (heavy)flamer or combiflamer on the sternies is a good deterrent) you shoot them with your spec ammo of your choice. Even if the following turn you fail the shoot out, their troops (being scoring) are without transport and with sternies up their face, This gives you a tactical advantage for objective grabbing later on in the game.

 

combiplasma is less of a benefit because of its use is close to vengeance round spec ammo's use. In this case maybe shooting TEQs could be the benefit due to plasma being AP2. The point is that sternies are more verstile with combimelta than with combiplasma, since the latter is less useful for vehicle popping and more useful for elite infantry, which the vengeance round also is anyway.

[minigun762]

The ammo would be wasted the turn they fire the combi melta against anything with AV11+ as no special ammo works to bust open tanks.

 

For a squad that may only live one turn, that's a fair amount of waste.

 

Now you can mitigate this by taking 100% combi melta or taking ten guys and combat squadding the melta together

[Imren]

ok, so what you mean is that the waste is that they won't survive to shoot their spec ammo latter turns. But that has nothing to do with whether combimelta is a waste compared to combiplasma. they cost the same points and will equally be living only the first turn.

 

My point is still that if you're going to buy combiweapons to sternguards, then buy either combimelta for vehicles or combiflamers for hordes because they complement the spec ammo, which the combiplasma doesn't, since its use is close to spec ammo (vengeance rounds in this case)

[minigun762]

ok, so what you mean is that the waste is that they won't survive to shoot their spec ammo latter turns. But that has nothing to do with whether combimelta is a waste compared to combiplasma. they cost the same points and will equally be living only the first turn.

 

That's the argument against any combi weapon upgrade. I'm not saying it's cut and dry but it's worth considering.

 

The argument for combi plasma is based on target selection. Plasma indicates your optimal targets will be MEQs, TEQs and MCs. These are units that SG have special ammo that also helps.

 

So for example, an 8 man squad with four combi plasma shooting at MEQs. Four guys shoot plasma and four guys shoot vengeance rounds. No model is not shooting or shooting a useless round.

 

If you take combi melta, your preferred targets are AV13+ vehicles. None of the special ammo will be useful against that so whoever doesn't have a combi melta is unutilized potential.

 

Make sense?

[Imren]

ok, I think I see what you're saying. What you mean is that the purpose in means of target type is lost if you have a few combiweapons of type other than combiplasma. Because then only those few get to shoot a relatively (to spec ammo) effective round of combi weapon shot, and therefore its pointless to spend the points on combiplasma, you might as well spend the point elsewhere and have the whole squad shoot vengeance rounds on MEQs, TEQs and MCs (although in the special case of TEQs plasma is really good)

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

So looking at it and thinking about it should I just go with a Hand to Hand equipped Command Squad? Or really upgrade and just take an Honor guard and let them wreck face?

 

I would like to thank you both this discussion is great and since I haven't gotten to play (doesn't look like I will get too for at least 6 months either) then I am really trying to lurk and learn.

 

Thanks,
DoC

[Imren]

So looking at it and thinking about it should I just go with a Hand to Hand equipped Command Squad? Or really upgrade and just take an Honor guard and let them wreck face?

 

Command squad is the only unit in codex where equipping the full squad with spec weapons (plasmagun, meltagun or gravguns) completely is a good idea. Add a libby with terminator armour and storm shield and keep him i nthe front to absorb the incoming fire and screen off the the squad, or put a apothecary with them. Put plasmaguns on all of them and let them eat through tau battlesuits, TDAs, MCs and what not.

 

You rather tool up honour guard for CC compared to command squad, they are already pretty good equipped for close combat

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

So I probably should just keep the Libby with a shooty plasma squad since I need plasma in my list and place the CM in an honor guard.

[BrainFireBob]

Been planning on plasma guns+ storm shields, myself. Unit takes its cover with it. You might consider it.