Grey Knights 7e Codex Rumor

[IndigoJack]

I'm not sure what's gonna happen but I will be surprised if any new models come out. I think the dex will be a compilation of all the errata and maybe, just maybe, a new unit or 2 with possible new weapons choices but definatly a fix on what we do have. But this is just me.

Given GW's new release schedule, I'd say we'd have to get new models. Otherwise, how are they going to stretch the release over a whole month?

[Dread]

Well that does make sense but maybe special characters will be on the menu then.

[Captain Coolpants]

Who here thinks that nemesis weapons will be less effective on everything other than daemons and psykers? Such as they only have force against said units or a certain ap or whatever. Because the only way for us to get cheaper is with some kind on nerf as our whole army has 'better than' power weapons. And power weapons are usually at least 10/15pts for other Marines, plus we get storm bolters which are at least 5 extra points. Then we became psykers, cheapest psyker upgrade can think of is around 20 ish points (although this would be added to the 'unit' cost because of brotherhood of psykers) so that's an insanely cheap extra 2pts per model on a full squad of 10.

 

 

When you take all that into account the price we pay for a bum basic, naked strike squad model, is 'literally' just covering the cost of his wargear/powers and NOT the marine itself as that would be an extra 15 ish points on top.

 

So unless we get a nerf, we're staying the same price. Most I'm hoping for are cheaper gun upgrades.

[Quozzo]

I'd expect the psycannon to be nerfed or increase it's points because its currently the auto-include (I'm hesitant to say "best" because the other two are very good what what they do, but they don't do much else)

[Brovius]

Who here thinks that nemesis weapons will be less effective on everything other than daemons and psykers? Such as they only have force against said units or a certain ap or whatever. Because the only way for us to get cheaper is with some kind on nerf as our whole army has 'better than' power weapons. And power weapons are usually at least 10/15pts for other Marines, plus we get storm bolters which are at least 5 extra points. Then we became psykers, cheapest psyker upgrade can think of is around 20 ish points (although this would be added to the 'unit' cost because of brotherhood of psykers) so that's an insanely cheap extra 2pts per model on a full squad of 10.

 

 

When you take all that into account the price we pay for a bum basic, naked strike squad model, is 'literally' just covering the cost of his wargear/powers and NOT the marine itself as that would be an extra 15 ish points on top.

 

So unless we get a nerf, we're staying the same price. Most I'm hoping for are cheaper gun upgrades.

The big mistake you're making here is assuming the Space Marine Captain points cost for a Storm Bolter, who is a BS5 model with Precision Shot by virtue of being an Independent Character. The cost for a BS4 linetrooper would realistically be 2 points a model. You're also forgetting the big price drop vanilla Marines had back in 5th ed, where they went from 17 points with Bolter only to 16 points with 3 points of free wargear (Bolt Pistol, both Frag and Krak grenades). The trend for point costs of basic troop choices is downwards (except poor Orks, and at least Guardians got useful) so we will see a point reduction on Strikes at least, likely 19pts but 18 is a possibility.

 

Interceptors and GKT will remain the same cost but Purifiers are likely to go up or have Halberds cost more (26pts for 2 base I6 AP3 attacks is absurd).

 

EDIT: Psycannons are fine as they are, but will probably change to Salvo weapons in the next book. The only reason they're auto-include is because Grey Knights (without ][ support) don't have access to Missile Launchers, Plasma or Meltaguns on their infantry, which make up the bulk of a Space marine army's ability to remove heavy infantry and vehicles. Grey Knights either have to fight TEq and vehicles with vehicles of their own, or rely on mass Psycannon shots and hope for rending hits. I find Psylencers pointless because Storm Bolters exist (and are free), and everything the Incinerator wants to be used on, Storm Bolters can hit at longer ranges.

[boreas]

I bet psycannons stay the same, but psilencers get better. Also, I wouldn't mind losing force weapons all around to get power weapons and keep the force weapons on the justicar.

[BladeGaurd]

Psycannons will become salvo to maintain the standards of 7th ed.

I would love an infantry anti tank weapon other then the psycannons, like an ap grenade launcher (like s 6 ap 2 armor bane) or melta gun variant.

 

I would like another variant of infantry and a dreadnought variant or 2, an anti air version and a melee version.

Grey knights have 2 weakness, numbers (that in an all Grey Knight list should not be fixed) and enemy vehicles (this can be mitigated with out lost of army feel or fluff).

Our own vehicles are somewhat limited, transports and dreadnoughts.

 

We might se another 1 of the 8 brotherhoods unveiled as a special brotherhood like the paladins and purifiers.

I am not sure bikes work fluff wise for Grey Knights, also it could make the play very similar to Deathwing Dark Angels. I would like expanding the heavy infantry and "jump pack" theme that Grey Knights can do.

 

I would also be happy with the inclusion of SOB and DW causing the birth of the Codex: Chamber Militant.

[jeffersonian000]

Psilencer should ignore armor, and be Poison 3+. That would make it worth the points.

 

SJ

[Sothalor]

Let's say we're super-cynical about GW's strategies with updates, and the current "strong" options are toned down (read: beaten repeatedly with the nerf bat) so other things look better in comparison. What might we expect?

My predictions (completely unfounded, just for kicks and psyching myself up to expect the worst ):

- Psycannon is Salvo, almost a given considering 7th Ed trends.

- Nerf to psybolt autocannon Dreadnoughts? Something along the lines of increased point costs for psybolt options, or psybolts disappearing as an option entirely? It's not like they have a model, right?

- Nemesis Force Halberds -> now act as power spears with the Force and Daemonbane rules (if Daemonbane still exists).

- Nemesis Greatsword: I'd expect it to now be a Specialist Weapon with the Shred and Master-Crafted rules.

Oh, and say goodbye to Mordrak and Thawn... and possibly the Techmarine, cause they have no models for a picture to take up 60% of the unit entry instead of fluff and art.

I'm not bitter about that change at all.

[lt051]

Hopefully (but I doubt it) they redo the brotherhood champion and then give us chaplains. Grey knight chaplains would just be amazing, and there's already some fluff mention of then thanks to black library

[Captain Coolpants]

I suppose we should technically get cheaper landraiders and ravens as grey knights have all the best toys. And the impression I get from the fluff in the actual current codex is that we have more landraiders/ravens than rhinos as most grey knights are terminators. (pg33 top right hand paragraph).

And. It says that ravens are the deployment method of choice.

 

So I suppose that would kinda help with the psycannon nerf (which I seriously hope won't happened).

 

And I didn't even know there were more different units in our 8 brotherhoods?

[casb1965]

I suppose we should technically get cheaper landraiders and ravens as grey knights have all the best toys. And the impression I get from the fluff in the actual current codex is that we have more landraiders/ravens than rhinos as most grey knights are terminators. (pg33 top right hand paragraph).

And. It says that ravens are the deployment method of choice.

 

So I suppose that would kinda help with the psycannon nerf (which I seriously hope won't happened).

 

And I didn't even know there were more different units in our 8 brotherhoods?

 

From Lexicanum:

The Bulk of the Grey Knights Chapter is organized into Brotherhoods, fighting formations roughly equivalent to a Space Marine Company and consisting of around one hundred Battle Brothers. Each Brotherhood is overseen by a Grand Master There are eight known Grey Knights Brotherhoods plus the Purifier and Paladin Orders.

 

Unfortunately I can't find a definitive list of what they are.

[Brovius]

Psycannons will become salvo to maintain the standards of 7th ed.

I would love an infantry anti tank weapon other then the psycannons, like an ap grenade launcher (like s 6 ap 2 armor bane) or melta gun variant.

I would like another variant of infantry and a dreadnought variant or 2, an anti air version and a melee version.

Grey knights have 2 weakness, numbers (that in an all Grey Knight list should not be fixed) and enemy vehicles (this can be mitigated with out lost of army feel or fluff).

Our own vehicles are somewhat limited, transports and dreadnoughts.

We might se another 1 of the 8 brotherhoods unveiled as a special brotherhood like the paladins and purifiers.

I am not sure bikes work fluff wise for Grey Knights, also it could make the play very similar to Deathwing Dark Angels. I would like expanding the heavy infantry and "jump pack" theme that Grey Knights can do.

I would also be happy with the inclusion of SOB and DW causing the birth of the Codex: Chamber Militant.

Purifiers aren't a Brotherhood in their own right, they exist outside the system entirely as an order of about ~40 who aren't affiliated to any Brotherhood in particular. I can't remember if Paladins are organised in a similar way though.

EDIT: I should have read the rest of the responses before replying

[Captain Coolpants]

I always seen that 8 brotherhoods thing as having an equal or semi equal amount of similar units in each. That's why I was confused because otherwise that would mean that there are only 100 odd of each unit in the entire chapter. And we would have only seen 400 so far (purgation, strikes,interceptors and regular termies). As paladins are bodyguards and purifiers are just weird and only have 40.

 

Your way of interpreting it means they owe us around 5/6 completely new unit types haha. I wish!

 

 

 

 

Edit: I should have read all before replying also LMAO!

 

Should have seen that "8 'known' brotherhoods" before replying Lmao

[Inquisitor Kravin]

Looking at the recent codex updates I suspect that you'll lose a few items/characters that don't have specific models and hopes for reduced weapon costs are unlikely to be satisfied. Look at Space Wolves as the latest example - Mark of the Wulfen has gone and I think Wolftooth Necklace and Wolf Tail Talisman are gone too. Wolf Guard combi weapons and Long Fang weapons have gone up in price. Blood Claw variants have dropped in price. The upshot is that GW wants you to spend more money on plastic bodies and less on upgrades that don't have options.

 

For characters like Thawn and Mordrak you'll either get a model or they'll disappear from the codex. Strike Squads may come down in price though I think they'll need to lose something in order to do so.

[Valerian]

"Space Marine Captain points cost for a Storm Bolter, who is a BS5 model with Precision Shot by virtue of being an Independent Character."

 

IC's don't have Precision Shots/Strikes in 7e.

[Captain Coolpants]

It's understandable to get rid of wolf tooth necklaces because they were very good indeed, hitting any models (including daemon princes) on the best to hit rolls in CC possible for very few points regardless of your ws. (although I loved them on my old CC deads when I played wolves)

 

Long fang weapons are more expensive because they auto pass split fire now as split fire no longer require a roll.

 

And other general weapon up costs are to bring them in line with other Marine Codex's and because the actual models have gone down in price.

 

But how these changes to make them more like a marine dex's would effective grey knights I don't know, because most of the wargear is privy to the grey knights Codex only. So I can't see the prices going up for weapons unless the prices of the models go down a few points.

 

It would be a real shame if they removed mordrak and thawn. I love thawn, such a good warp charge booster and makes your squad fearless and he is immortal haha.

[AnImA8]

Psycannons will become salvo to maintain the standards of 7th ed.

 

I can't see this happening. Salvo is too restrictive for assaulting. GK's are supposed to be the premier generalists capable of shooting incredibly powerful bolt weapons, without loss of effectiveness, as they waltz into close quarters fighting. Hell they used to be able to fire their Storm Bolters AS pistols while in combat. Psycannons will stay Assault/Heavy.

 

 

From Lexicanum:

The Bulk of the Grey Knights Chapter is organized into Brotherhoods, fighting formations roughly equivalent to a Space Marine Company and consisting of around one hundred Battle Brothers. Each Brotherhood is overseen by a Grand Master There are eight known Grey Knights Brotherhoods plus the Purifier and Paladin Orders.

 

Unfortunately I can't find a definitive list of what they are.

 

From what I gather, these brotherhoods are also self-contained. There's not a Brotherhood dedicated to a role like there is with Space Marine Companies, and most GK's are equipped for a variety of purposes--every GK comes with TDA and will either use it or their Power Armor depending on what the mission demands.

 

Where it gets weird is with Paladins and Purifiers as you point out. Purifiers are odd because they have their own Brotherhood Champion. In fact in Crowe's bio, it describes how there is ALWAYS a Bro-Champ among the Purifiers (but Bro-Champs are dedicated to protecting a Brother-Captain; do the Purifiers have their own Brotherhood hierarchy?).

 

Paladins I always just assumed were a part of any given Brotherhood, and not separate like the Purifiers. Every GM has an entourage of Paladins to protect him after all.

[Valerian]

From what I gather, these brotherhoods are also self-contained. There's not a Brotherhood dedicated to a role like there is with Space Marine Companies, and most GK's are equipped for a variety of purposes--every GK comes with TDA and will either use it or their Power Armor depending on what the mission demands.

Where it gets weird is with Paladins and Purifiers as you point out. Purifiers are odd because they have their own Brotherhood Champion. In fact in Crowe's bio, it describes how there is ALWAYS a Bro-Champ among the Purifiers (but Bro-Champs are dedicated to protecting a Brother-Captain; do the Purifiers have their own Brotherhood hierarchy?).

 

 

Paladins I always just assumed were a part of any given Brotherhood, and not separate like the Purifiers. Every GM has an entourage of Paladins to protect him after all.

 

 

So, here is my take on the fluff for these two:

 

Brother-Captains command the Brotherhoods, and they have their various units within each one, depending on need.  The Grand Masters are external to the Brotherhoods.  Each of the GMs is responsible for a Brotherhood, but sits outside of its structure, coming down to takeover if/when they deem it necessary.  Likewise, the Paladins exist outside of the Brotherhood structure - they are elevated beyond it when they pass all of the tests, and go to form bodyguards for the various Grand Masters.  They don't, however, group together into a cohesive formation of Paladins throughout the Chapter, but rather split up into permanent small groups that directly support each individual Grand Master.

 

The Purifiers also exist outside of the structure of a Brotherhood, and are formed together into a separate order within the Chapter.  Like the Grand Masters and their Paladin retinues, small teams of Purifiers would go out and join forces with a Brotherhood on campaign, whenever they assessed, or the prognosticators determined, that the need was sufficient, and the situation dire.  

 

As for Castellan Crowe, he is the commander of head/commander of the Purifier order, because they need some sort of leadership structure, since they stand outside of the Brotherhood formations of the Chapter.  It isn't stated at all, but I surmise that he acts also as a sort of Brotherhood Champion for either one of two reasons:

 

My first guess is that perhaps he was already an extremely talented Brotherhood Champion, personal bodyguard to a Brother-Captain and chief combat trainer to a Brotherhood, when he was assessed into the Purifier order.  Once there, he continued to hone his exceptional abilities, while acting now as primary trainer of all of the Purifiers, as he had done in his previous role, only now with no bodyguard responsibilities.  His previous Brother-Captain would have had to replace him within the Brotherhood.

 

My second hypothesis, is that he was assessed into the Purifier order relatively early in his career, based on his exceptional nobility and "flawless soul," and simply arose to leadership within the order over time.  In this instance, he would have never actually served as a Brotherhood Champion, but has learned their techniques in order to best serve his order, and needing their skills to better train his men, etc.

 

 

For the record, I despise the fluff of Crowe and the Purifiers.  I think it is abhorrent to have an order of "more pure than everyone else" within a Chapter of flawless souls.  The bit about them beating neophytes, and making Battle-Brothers that enter their chambers disappear further sours the already bitter fluff.  Much better, in my mind, to just make squads of Veteran Grey Knights within each Brotherhood, who would get the Purifier entry, and make Castellan Crowe simply the chief/most skilled Brotherhood Champion.

[DinoDoc]

So Matt Ward is out. What does that portend for our codex?

[boreas]

Better Fluff, worst rules :)

[Sothalor]

Pff. If recent trends are anything to go by, it'll be copy-pasted fluff, worse rules.

Worst of both worlds for everybody!

[BloodTzar]

I really like your rational thinking in regards of upcoming changes in GK codex, while it is all very nice, you are overlooking one major fact; GW by any means is not a rational thinker. Not only they do like to bend over and their own fluff over and over (rules as well), they are not afraid to gimp one codex in order to sell others more (sisters, Templars into big book etc.) Therefore I am waiting to see how far they will go with GK's ...

++ EDIT. Illicit term replaced with :cuss. t++

[Quozzo]

... or how little. Gimpimg our codex only makes daemons that much stronger and more appealing.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Honestly, I'm expecting a whitewash. They'll fiddle with point costs a bit, delete wargear they find too complicated, and remove any characters they deem too interesting. We'll get  some mediocre relics, maybe a couple of good Warlord traits (we better considering they replaced 'Grand Strategy' with them), and a few nerfs tossed in for good measure.