My Grey Knights Allies

[ElectricPaladin]

As of Friday, I will be taking the plunge and becoming the world's newest Grey Knights player by picking up a box of terminators to make an allied detachment to hang out with my Blood Angels and Sisters of Battle armies. Perhaps it will even evolve into its own full army in time - who knows?

Why am I doing this? Honestly, it's Santic Daemonology. I have always loved the idea of brave, idealistic paladins standing firm against the darkness. While the Grey Knights have rarely lived up to this ideal (*cough* Ward's unexplored fetishist side *cough*), the Santic powers are simply too much of a temptation to ignore, and the rules make it impossible to really play with them outside of a Grey Knights army.

I've also started a Daemons of Chaos army for the same reason .

Anyway, I have to make the decision about how to kit them out, and since magnetizing infantry has rarely seemed worth it to me (and never with the rounded shapes of power armor, though I've made it work with Tau battlesuits) I was hoping for some advice from the vets.

Here are some important facts for context...

• I will be using them in support of my Knights of Blood (Blood Angels codex) army, which is huge and varied so I'm not going to bother posting my collection here. I might occasionally use them with my Adepta Sororitas, who are a much smaller collection, but I'm mostly into my Knights of Blood at the moment.
• I already own an Inquisitorial warband consisting of a terminator inquisitor with a psycannon, a bunch of acolytes with hotshot lasguns and carapace armor (basically, a box of tempestus scions), a jokaero, a mystic, and some other assorted unpainted and unassembled dudes. And they ride in a double heavy bolter chimera. I have plans to acquire more in the way of warband, because my FLGS is running an Inquisition War-themed narrative campaign, and I need more variety in my warband.
• I also already own a metal terminator who I converted up into a librarian.
• My plan is to use these terminators as backup for the inquisitor. They'll Deep Strike in - with the mystic preventing scatter - and provide support, as well as potentially helping to claim objectives (with terminator durability, I can call them in and get them locked into combat with an opponent's non-scoring unit on an objective and have a decent chance of owning the objective at the end of the game!).

So, in this context, what kind of gear would be most useful for a small allied contingent of Grey Knight terminators?

Thanks for your help. Hopefully this will be the beginning of an exciting new journey into the Grey Knights, and you'll read me around here a lot.

[Gentlemanloser]

I would say all Hammers and a Psycannon.  But you don't get enough Hammers in the box, and Halberds are just as good.

 

While our GKT can get use form the standard Swords, Halberds are free and the I6 makes people cry. ;)

 

I'd probably suggest;

 

Justicar, Halberd

GKT x2, Halberd

GKT, Hammer

GKT Psycannon (your choice of Halberd to Sword!)

 

:)

[Jakbal]

ElectricPaladin -

 

I'm also a Blood Angels primary player beginning an allied Grey Knights attachment!  So I'm going to be watching this thread with great interest ... A friend of mine sold me his unused GK army on the cheap.  Not trying to thread jack or anything, but wanted to comment in this thread as well to introduce myself to GK forum members as I'll be spending time both here and over at the BA section.

[Gentlemanloser]

Welcome!

[ElectricPaladin]

I would say all Hammers and a Psycannon.  But you don't get enough Hammers in the box...

 

Well, I'm not allergic to hitting up eBay for the bits I need to make an all-hammer squad. If that's the case, would you recommend such a squad? Initiative 6 isn't anything to sneeze at, but if it's so great, how come nobody recommends an all-halberd squad?

Alternately, what about hammers on the whole squad, but halberd on the justicar for challenges?

[Gentlemanloser]

All halberds used to be the go to, and some would say still is (with a hammer if you wanted to smack up AV14/tough MCs).

 

There's a few of us that like all hammers now, with the change to them being AP2, and TDA now living through most Power Weapons to get to use them.

 

Prior to 6th, it would have been a no go, as we didn't have the Storm Shield Invulnerable saves to keep us alive to use them.

 

Still I6 lets you murder just about every marine squad you face (bar other Terminators / Honour Guard / Sang Guard / other 2+ units) before they get the change to attack back.

[Quozzo]

No one takes all halberds because it can't wreck TEq MCs or vehicles so they throw in a hammer just in case. No one takes all hammer squads on PAGK because they wont get a chance to strike, but that's not the case with terminators. If your inquisitor rolls sanctuary it also boosts the terminators already respectable inv save to a 4++ the equivalent of a squad in iron halos! For a PAGK squad to benefit from sanctuary they need to use NFSwords to increase that to 5++ and only then does it apply in close combat, losing the benefits of other NFW all on the off chance you roll sanctuary.

 

I'm still a firm believer that halberds are better than hammers when dealing with MEq but hammers are more versatile on terminators who can also use psycannons to full effect.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or Invisibility.

 

Being hit on WS1 in CC is great if you're full Hammers. ;)

[ElectricPaladin]

So, from what I'm hearing, you don't want to do all hammers because without storm shields, the terminators still aren't durable enough to really tank the enemy the way that, say, my Blood Angels codex hammernators can. But you still want a hammer or two in the unit for the same reason that you want a couple of meltaguns in your assault squad - to deliver that extra punch needed to take down a vehicle or monstrous creature. Although there are things you can do to make hammerknights almost as durable as the hammernators that I'm used to, it requires rolling up the right powers and getting them off.

 

I think I see the point. Basically, you want the hammers for punch, and you want the halberds to make it more likely that your hammers will survive long enough to deliver that punch (by probably taking out an attacker or two before your opponents get to swing).

 

So, yeah... three halberds - one of them on the justicar for challenges, of course - and two hammers. Makes sense to me.

[Jakbal]

So, from what I'm hearing, you don't want to do all hammers because without storm shields, the terminators still aren't durable enough to really tank the enemy the way that, say, my Blood Angels codex hammernators can. But you still want a hammer or two in the unit for the same reason that you want a couple of meltaguns in your assault squad - to deliver that extra punch needed to take down a vehicle or monstrous creature. Although there are things you can do to make hammerknights almost as durable as the hammernators that I'm used to, it requires rolling up the right powers and getting them off.

 

I think I see the point. Basically, you want the hammers for punch, and you want the halberds to make it more likely that your hammers will survive long enough to deliver that punch (by probably taking out an attacker or two before your opponents get to swing).

 

So, yeah... three halberds - one of them on the justicar for challenges, of course - and two hammers. Makes sense to me.

 

And of course all the Terminators I got off my friend have swords!  Luckily I got a huge box of bits to go with it.

[ElectricPaladin]

 

So, from what I'm hearing, you don't want to do all hammers because without storm shields, the terminators still aren't durable enough to really tank the enemy the way that, say, my Blood Angels codex hammernators can. But you still want a hammer or two in the unit for the same reason that you want a couple of meltaguns in your assault squad - to deliver that extra punch needed to take down a vehicle or monstrous creature. Although there are things you can do to make hammerknights almost as durable as the hammernators that I'm used to, it requires rolling up the right powers and getting them off.

 

I think I see the point. Basically, you want the hammers for punch, and you want the halberds to make it more likely that your hammers will survive long enough to deliver that punch (by probably taking out an attacker or two before your opponents get to swing).

 

So, yeah... three halberds - one of them on the justicar for challenges, of course - and two hammers. Makes sense to me.

 

And of course all the Terminators I got off my friend have swords!  Luckily I got a huge box of bits to go with it.

 

eBay is your friend.

[Valerian]

Put Hammer 1 on the guy with the Psycannon; he's the most important model in the unit, and you want him to live to the end, so preserve both weapons, and put him near the rear of your formation, but not at the very back.

 

Put Hammer 2 on the Justicar, for challenges; with a Hammer, he could get lucky and kill anything. With just a Halberd, he's in trouble against any hero with 2+ armor. He goes in the middle of the formation.

 

Then give 3 Halberds to regular shmoes, and put them out front to absorb Wounding hits. If they get picked off by a Lascannon, oh well; at least you haven't lost anything critical.

 

Magnetizing, however, is pretty easy though. I've got a link in my sig.

[jeffersonian000]

Swords are better on the Cannon totes, as a 4++ is better for survival than an Init 1 weapon. Going heavy on Halberds, including having the Justicar with a Halberd, was 5th-6th tactics to get an unsaved wound in early to trigger activation. In 7th, Halberds let you get ID wounds on the target early, so going heavy on Halberds is still a good strategy. Going 2 Hammers per 5 TDA is a 6th tactic, due to the addition of AP to melee weapons; it's still a good strategy in 7th for the exact same reasons. As to what to arm a Justicar with in 7th, I6, 4++, or AP2, I'm still going with I6 at S6 with ID (when able). Hitting first is almost always better than hitting last.

 

SJ

[ElectricPaladin]

Swords are better on the Cannon totes, as a 4++ is better for survival than an Init 1 weapon. Going heavy on Halberds, including having the Justicar with a Halberd, was 5th-6th tactics to get an unsaved wound in early to trigger activation. In 7th, Halberds let you get ID wounds on the target early, so going heavy on Halberds is still a good strategy. Going 2 Hammers per 5 TDA is a 6th tactic, due to the addition of AP to melee weapons; it's still a good strategy in 7th for the exact same reasons. As to what to arm a Justicar with in 7th, I6, 4++, or AP2, I'm still going with I6 at S6 with ID (when able). Hitting first is almost always better than hitting last.

 

SJ

 

So you would recommend...

• 2 random dudes with hammers to put the smash on heavy targets.
• Psycannon dude with swords for maximum survivability
• Justicar and one other dude with halberds

I think I like this idea...

[Valerian]

Swords are better on the Cannon totes, as a 4++ is better for survival than an Init 1 weapon. Going heavy on Halberds, including having the Justicar with a Halberd, was 5th-6th tactics to get an unsaved wound in early to trigger activation. In 7th, Halberds let you get ID wounds on the target early, so going heavy on Halberds is still a good strategy. Going 2 Hammers per 5 TDA is a 6th tactic, due to the addition of AP to melee weapons; it's still a good strategy in 7th for the exact same reasons.

 

SJ

 

I agree that Swords for a 4++ is better for survival (only in close combat though), but I still disagree with your assessment.  Here's why:

 

Assuming a small Grey Knight Terminator squad (usual 5 guys) you don't have a lot of flexibility to play Wound Allocation games, and still need to weather whatever enemy Shooting turns there are in which you are exposed to enemy fire, and not "safely" locked in close combat.  Thus, you need to protect your most valuable weapons, and keep them from getting destroyed.  Your most valuable weapons, in this squad, are the Psycannon (#1) and any Hammers (#2).  The Hammers rate #2, because they're still the most deadly of your weapons, and are the only legitimate threat against a good range of potential adversaries.  Strength 8 (or 10 with Hammerhand) can destroy any Vehicle, Monstrous Creature, or Special Character in the game (usually with Instant Death, too).  The Hammers are the only SCCW that we have with AP2, which means we affect any and all armour, too.  That's why I recommend putting a Hammer on the Psycannon guy, so you can keep both safe by avoiding placement of Wounding Hits on that model, especially AP2 Wounding Hits, as much as possible. 

 

You also probably want to protect the Justicar, as he's a Character, and can therefore take on Challengers, and free up your Librarian, or whatever other IC you want to attach to the unit.  Without the Justicar, ICs have fight every challenge or be forced to sit out of close combat completely; its always better to have the Justicar around to lend a hand, so now you have a second model in the unit of 5 that you really want to preserve, and try to keep safe by avoiding placement of Wounding Hits on that model, especially AP2 Wounding Hits, as much as possible. 

 

If you put a Sword on this Psycannon model, and put one of your Hammers elsewhere in the unit, then you've just given yourself three models (out of 5) that you're really trying to preserve, leaving only two "meat-shields" to put low-AP Wounds on.  I just don't think this is a wise distribution of weapons within the unit.

 

 

 

As to what to arm a Justicar with in 7th, I6, 4++, or AP2, I'm still going with I6 at S6 with ID (when able). Hitting first is almost always better than hitting last.

 

Having your Justicar with attacks at I6, and maybe S6 (with Hammerhand activated, and possibly ID, too) will only be optimal when facing 3+ Armor Save models and worse.  If this is what you expect, then absolutely do this!  If, however, you expect that you'll be facing other units with 2+ Armor Saves, then that Halberd will be next to useless, especially in a Challenge situation.  Pretty much all Marine (and Chaos Space Marine?) Independent Characters are in 2+ Save Armor (either Terminator, Articifer, or Runic), and I expect Mega-Armored Nobz and Warbosses are about to be pretty common, too.  If you think you'll be going up against any of those, then you're going to want to have a Hammer on that Justicar.

 

Again, I recommend that you magnetize the Justicar at a minimum, so you can do an easy swap of close combat weapons.  Facing IG or Eldar?  Go with the Halberd probably.  Marines, CSM, or Orks?  Swap for the Hammer.

 

Best,

 

V

[jeffersonian000]

Well, V, I just don't like putting all my eggs in one basked, and a Hammer+Cannon on a 1W model is too many eggs in my opinion. I take 2 Hammers, 2 Halberds, and 1 Sword per 5 GKT, with max Psycannons. Use to take 4 Halberds, 1 Hammer, 1 Cannon per 5 GKT back in 5th, and only went to the extra Hammer+Sword in 6th. 7th might be the 3 Hammers per 5 edition, with 2 Halberds and no Swords. We'll see.

 

As to how to arm the Judticar, I'm still in preference of the Halberd over the Hammer. 2-3 attacks now outweigh potentially no attacks later. Again, its my preference.

 

SJ

[Grand Master Caloth]

I run 3 hammer/2 halberd per 5. Gives great hammer coverage and enough halberd hits to whittle what is coming at me fairly effectively