[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Marshal Vespasian]

I want to run both at 4k, before that I run sigismund. Simply because i love templars and he makes them compulsory hqs. I feel that in 2k games i cant afford a 300+ unit that cant take objectives

[The Scorpion]

Some questions for veteran Fists players:

 

- If you are the kind of player to take a punchy HQ, in what circumstances would you not opt for Sigismund over a Praetor? Are there any of you for whom Sigismund’s cost is prohibitive in 2-2.5k points?

 

- If you are the kind of player to take Sigismund, at what points level would you consider making an upgrade to Dorn? Is the additional cost a trivial amount in, say, a 3k list, OR does Sigismund offer good value with Primarch-level duelist ability - with some army buffs on the side - without having to shell out for Dorn?

 

Perhaps I’m conflating very different characters but it does seem to me that the Fists have a clear progression of HQ/LoW choices, and I’m intrigued to know at which levels players opt for one or the other.

Not a veteran player, but I'll try to answer as best as I can.

 

The hidden benefit of Sigismund is that he can take Templar Bretheren as troops to represent his forces and retinue, which means you can Drop a RoW on top of that.

 

Stone Gauntelet does not benefit models with combat shields due to poor wording, but you can create a Templar Hammerfell Strike Force or Templar Armored Spearhead.

 

I'd dare to say Sigismund would be too expensive in games smaller than 2000pts (like a 1500 Zone Mortalis game), if you are taking him just for the beatstick and not for his list building potential.

 

That being said. A good reason NOT to bring out the black knight every game is that FW sells a VIIth legion specific Champion (and Herald) in their IF command squad. Gotta flex those models on the other legions.

 

I would maybe upgrade to Dorn at 2500 and always at 3000. Turbolaser Thunderhawk dedicated transport with 40 transport slots? Yes please. Get youself the "Primarch's Chosen" RoW (to sneak the thunderhawk into an HQ slot and avoid the 25% LoW tax) and fill those troop slots with Vets, terminators, and Phalanx Warders.

Edited April 19, 2020 by The Scorpion

[dicebod]

 

Some questions for veteran Fists players:

 

- If you are the kind of player to take a punchy HQ, in what circumstances would you not opt for Sigismund over a Praetor? Are there any of you for whom Sigismund’s cost is prohibitive in 2-2.5k points?

 

- If you are the kind of player to take Sigismund, at what points level would you consider making an upgrade to Dorn? Is the additional cost a trivial amount in, say, a 3k list, OR does Sigismund offer good value with Primarch-level duelist ability - with some army buffs on the side - without having to shell out for Dorn?

 

Perhaps I’m conflating very different characters but it does seem to me that the Fists have a clear progression of HQ/LoW choices, and I’m intrigued to know at which levels players opt for one or the other.

Not a veteran player, but I'll try to answer as best as I can.

 

The hidden benefit of Sigismund is that he can take Templar Bretheren as troops to represent his forces and retinue, which means you can Drop a RoW on top of that.

 

Stone Gauntelet does not benefit models with combat shields due to poor wording, but you can create a Templar Hammerfell Strike Force or Templar Armored Spearhead.

 

I'd dare to say Sigismund would be too expensive in games smaller than 2000pts (like a 1500 Zone Mortalis game), if you are taking him just for the beatstick and not for his list building potential.

 

That being said. A good reason NOT to bring out the black knight every game is that FW sells a VIIth legion specific Champion (and Herald) in their IF command squad. Gotta flex those models on the other legions.

 

I would maybe upgrade to Dorn at 2500 and always at 3000. Turbolaser Thunderhawk dedicated transport with 40 transport slots? Yes please. Get youself the "Primarch's Chosen" RoW (to sneak the thunderhawk into an HQ slot and avoid the 25% LoW tax) and fill those troop slots with Vets, terminators, and Phalanx Warders.

 

 

I'm a fairly veteran fists player here so happy to throw in my $.02!

 

1) As The Scorpion pointed out, one of Sigismund's biggest bonuses is that he makes your TB troops, which essentially means that your really nasty CC beatstick unit now scores, which is a tremendous asset for someone going deep into enemy lines.  As for cost, let's consider comparing him to the "standard" killy praetor - artificer armor, iron halo, bolt pistol, master-crafted paragon blade, digital lasers.  That's 180 points to Siggy's 230.  For that extra 50 points, you're gaining +1 WS, +1 wound, eternal warrior, fearless (huge!), adamantium will and all his unique buffs.  You're losing out on a couple of attacks, instant death outside of challenges and the potential to get a better warlord trait than the one he has.  My gut reaction says that he is still more bang for your buck than your average super-killy praetor, if for nothing else than eternal warrior & fearless.

 

One thing to note about Sigismund however is that he can become a bit rote for your opponents if he is over-used.  One of my regular opponents in particular would always just refuse challenges from him, making Siggy lose out on the vast majority of his really dangerous buffs including the ability to ID things T 4+.  

 

2) This is a tough call because Sigismund and Dorn fill really different roles in your army list.  Siggy can go toe-to-toe with some of the "lesser" primarchs, if nothing else than to speedbump them from really making a mess.  Siggy's buffs also focus on single combat, so he wants to be challenging as much as possible.  Dorn on the other hand is really built to go after big units - reaping blow & rampage really make him a close combat threat, without those his measly 4 attacks aren't going to do a whole lot.  I think that Siggy's army composition benefit - making Templars troops - is better than Dorn making terminators & phalanx warders troops.  Terminators already have implacable advance and phalanx warders are pretty persona-non-grata in most heresy games (though this may change after their price drop in the FAQ).  

 

In my book, Sigismund is best in most situations.  Dorn is more of a fun choice - he has disappointed me quite a few times but when he pops off HE POPS OFF.  It's a unique confluence of the VII having the best praetor-level character and one of the lesser Primarchs - there's a lot more grey area in picking one if you want to invest a lot of points in a commander.

Edited April 27, 2020 by dicebod

[Scammel]

Cheers all!

 

In my book, Sigismund is best in most situations.  Dorn is more of a fun choice - he has disappointed me quite a few times but when he pops off HE POPS OFF.  It's a unique confluence of the VII having the best praetor-level character and one of the lesser Primarchs - there's a lot more grey area in picking one if you want to invest a lot of points in a commander.

 

 

Oh, totally - that's why I asked! Considering they're theoretically a more 'vanilla' legion, the IF have a lot of those weird grey areas.

 

There's some reward for stocking up on Heavy Support Squads and hugging an aegis or bunker... but the support is fairly limited and Kyr Vhalen blows the list out of the water.

 

Stone Gauntlet is a super-cool RoW... but Breachers need a lot of investment to be much more than tough, bolter-wielding Marines.

 

You can take a force that entirely Deep Strikes... without any mitigation or even the support of a Damocles.

 

Of all the schticks the IF have in 30k, it feels odd that the most straight-forward, probably-works-as-intended list variant is the choppy Sigismund/Templar crusade! 

[CaptainGaradon7]

Hey guys, I'm wanting to start an imperial fist force for the heresy ( Dorns my favourite primarch). I'll be playing with friends who are all entirely new to 7th ed and so I'm not wanting anything too extreme (hence no spartan), but we've all agreed to try and make primarchs work in 2000 point lists ,so I was wondering if you had any tips and tricks to make this kind of thing work.

 

Here's the list I was thinking of trying:

 

HQ

Dorn w. 4x tartaros terminator command squad – 1x chainfist+ss, 2x powerfists+ss and 1x banner dude w. powerfist and ss in a land raider phobos w. armoured Ceramite and a dozer blade

Troops

5x tartaros terminators – 2x chainfists, 3x powerfists and 5x ss and a teleportation transponder

10x veteran marines (machine killers) – sergeant has AA, combi melta and power fist, 4x combi meltas, rest bolters, riding in a rhino w. dozer blade and multi melta

Heavy support

5x heavy support squad w. misslile launchers – sergeant has AA and the squad has flakk missiles – inside an ammo dump bunker

Sicaren venator w. dozer blade and lascannon sponsons

 

Rite of war – Primarchs chosen

2000 points

 

I'll be using Dorn and his command squad to run around hunting down threats, the veterans and the venator will try and take down any big vehicles, the other terminators will deepstrike in and disrupt any artillery or isolated squads while still having a good amount of punch (no pun intended) and the missile launchers are there for a bit of utility, being able to hit tanks, infantry and flyers.

 

I know there really aren't many bodies on the table but I reckon we'll all have the same problem, i'd love to know what you guys think about it.

[Slips]

Problem with deepstriking melee-only Terminator squads is that they cant charge on the turn they arrive so basically have to spend a turn getting shot or counter-charged.

Consider finding the points for something like a Dreadclaw if you want them to be a bit more reliable. You also dont have much, if anything, in the way of mitigating deep strike scatter so do be careful.

[CaptainGaradon7]

Problem with deepstriking melee-only Terminator squads is that they cant charge on the turn they arrive so basically have to spend a turn getting shot or counter-charged.

 

Consider finding the points for something like a Dreadclaw if you want them to be a bit more reliable. You also dont have much, if anything, in the way of mitigating deep strike scatter so do be careful.

I'm hoping that a 2+ 3++ will help them survive for a turn, but I've not played any 30k at all, am I overestimating their survivability? On the matter of transportation, would I be worth it to get a nuncio vox on the veterans to help with the scatter or does the charging mean that I really need a dreadclaw?

[Slips]

2+/3++ is pretty much on the upper tier of survivability but when a medusa is dropping an S10 Ap2 Pieplate on them with a near-guarantee of hitting everyone in the squad, then it starts getting a bit iffy. But, as long as you're aware of any potential counters and act accordingly, it can work.

 

A nuncio vox would definitely help if you can squeeze it in but it then means that your vet squad would probably have to go danger close due to its 6" range limit (iirc).

 

 

However, due to the way the squad is set up, theyre only really doing their job when theyre punching things in CC which means getting there ASAP. The easiest and safest way to do that currently for that squad is a Dreadclaw due to a few things:

• Drop Pod Assault; guaranteed arrival means you're not at the mercy of consistently rolling a 3+ for reserves meaning they show up when you want.
• Interial Guidance: no risk of deepstrike mishap
• Its a flyer meaning you can drop the Dreadclaw out of LoS to mitigate any interceptor risk
• Assault Vehicle coupled with the previous point means after arrival it drops into Hover -> Move -> disembark/move -> charge

All that basically gives you a much more reliable delivery system for a purely CC and expensive squad.

 

The problem is squeezing the points out of a (for 30k) low-point list.

[CaptainGaradon7]

Ok, if i take off the lascannon sponsons, the flakk missiles and the rhino multi melta i can fit it in, but will i regret removing my only real source of anti-air and a good portion of my anti tank capacity?

[Slips]

Ok, if i take off the lascannon sponsons, the flakk missiles and the rhino multi melta i can fit it in, but will i regret removing my only real source of anti-air and a good portion of my anti tank capacity?

The Main gun of the Venator is Ordnance, isnt it? Meaning the moment you shot it, the lascannons were going to snapfire so that would be something youre not likely to miss.

 

The Loss of Anti-Air via flakk missiles is rough but is only really something you need if theres a risk of flyers. If there arent going to be any, its a dead upgrade. So thats up to you. Worst case, you can try and get by without the Bunker and use Dorns ability to buff terrain to help out the HSS Squad.

[CaptainGaradon7]

Oh yeah, compleatly forgot about the snapfireing, and getting rid of the bunker is a good idea too. So here's my revised list: 

 

HQ

Dorn w. 4x tartaros terminator command squad – 1x chainfist+ss, 2x powerfists+ss and 1x banner dude w. powerfist and ss in a land raider phobos w. armoured Ceramite and a dozer blade

Troops

5x tartaros terminators – 2x chainfists, 3x powerfists and 5x ss  in a dreadclaw

10x veteran marines (machine killers) – sergeant has AA, combi melta and power fist, 5x combi meltas, rest bolters, riding in a rhino w. dozer blade and multi melta

Heavy support

5x heavy support squad w. missile launchers – sergeant has AA and augury scanner, and the squad has flakk missiles

Sicaren venator w. dozer blade

 

Rite of war – Primarchs chosen

2000 points

 

thanks for the help, this feels like a far better way to use the terminators!

[LongWarVet]

Looking to build a Hammerfall list (2.5k) that doesn't suck too badly (the person i play against isn't that competitive) and had a couple of idea for options. I think Polux can help make this RoW work a bit. 

 

Was wondering about using a Mortificator with Dread talon (and using Polux to bring them on T1) for a bit more survivability for the T1 army and then use a couple of Recon squads  to help with the Deep Strike accuracy. 

 

Alternatively I could use Polux to bring on a Damocles? 

[Marshal Vespasian]

I think the mortificator with dreadtalon would have the problem that they will eat all the AT fire that a birmal army has turn one so there is a reasonable chance that they dont survive. Yes they are tough and cool,but I think they wont survive very long.

Damocles out of sight might work better

[Slips]

The main thing to consider with Hammerfall and the - in my opinion - self-defeating attempt at making the most out of the benefits the RoW gives you is: what are you going to do to make the most of it?

 

Polux can help you bring vehicles on from reserves T1 to circumvent that limitation but since its the one unit and you can't deepstrike them that means you're limited by your deployment zone and since your infantry can either start on the table OR deepstrike via the RoW (or Polux), you're probably not using Master Tactician on an infantry unit. Ok, what then?

The obvious thing would be a Vehicle since they're stuck in reserves due to the RoW limitations but is it worth it to bring on just one vehicle? Sure, the Damocles Command Rhino would be useful especially if you can place it out of LoS but it's not going to be doing anything for you T1 and this means, during the whole of your opponents T1, they have a chance at just nuking the thing since Rhinos aren't the hardest things to take out in 30k. 

Instead, look into a robust vehicle squadron of some kind so you can get the most out of the slot and the Warlord Trait. A Landraider Squadron with at least one Proteus in it equipped with an ETA would be useful letting you reroll reserve rolls as well as possibly bring 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons on top of being AV 14/14/14 with Armored Ceramite.

 

Additionally, if you wanted to bring Dreads in this list, imho, you're better off taking them in Dreadpods for the guaranteed arrival and extra defenses via being given Shrouded upon disembarkation. Also doubles up as board control due to the footprint of the pod.

 

Spreading out Recon Squads to help with deepstrikes is a good, if expensive option for a unit that will, otherwise, only really contribute by capping objectives (not that this is unimportant) for their cost. 

 

Furthermore, you could also invest in some Termites to act as a sort of secondary "Drop Pod Assault" so that with 3 Pods and 3 Drills you have 2 of each guaranteed to arrive T1 (An expensive Cash-and-points proposition, however). It can also be taken as a Dedicated Transport for Destroyers, who can have Nuncio-Voxes, per Book 9 to help lighten up some FoC Slot Strain since you'll probably be wanting to...

 

Bring some Seekers, probably. Dropping some BS5 Combi-Plasmas with conditional Preferred enemy means you can have a nasty eraser unit at your disposal and, if you're ever up against a horde army or a unit decides to clump up, you can unleash the oh-so-hilarious deluge of 3" Blast Tempest Bolts. Otherwise, once they delete something with their combis, they'd still have S5 AP2 Shred Scorpius shells to remain a threat for the rest of the game. They also increase nuncio-vox coverage. They're also BS6 when firing their bolt weapons which is a niche benefit for being IF.

Beyond that, I'd say the infantry you want to focus on would be Phalanx Warders (especially using the Playtest rules) with 2x Plasma Guns at the very least and 1-in-3 Power Axes with a Fist/Hammer on the Sarge so that they have some sting on arrival/throughout the game if they live and some bite if a unit tries to tie them up without inflating their cost too much. Slapping Apothecaries onto these units would also be a good idea for the FNP

[LongWarVet]

Thanks Slips. I do see your point. It's more like build a list plus I can also do this cool teleport thing. I guess my motivation is that I try to build my armies so they can do the legion rites of war - at least as an option. 

[Indefragable]

Thinking of building a Heavy Support Squad with 5x heavy bolters. 

 

...but what I can't get past is the "optimization" angle. IF get that juicy +1BS on bolter weapons, so some good dakka....yet IF HSS also get Tank Hunters, and thus it feels like "wasting" a HSS squad by using heavy bolters on them. Missile launchers with Flakk seems like an amazing choice instead.

 

Is it realistic to consider using a heavy bolter HSS against Rhinos, fishing for 6's to glance them down? 

 

I am mostly into this for the Sons of Dorn Expansion VII event, but being the cheap economic fella that I am, especially knowing I may use an Allied force down the road for my IX Legion, especially with a Siege of Terra theme (since White Scars are one of my other favorite Legions), I get mentally blocked from starting something if I know I am realistically never going to actually use it. 

 

TL;DR: HSS builds and heavy bolters in IF armies....what are your takes?

[Slips]

Ive opted for 10 Volkite Culverins instead since most Flyers are AV12 and a fair bunch of vehicles are too or at the very least have side armor 12 so with ~40 shots you can easily just fish for 6s and glance something to death while also being able to pivot and delete infantry blobs.

 

Youre losing you on the +1BS, but I dont think its worth it on HSS squads who have more potent options that can make better use of Tank Hunters.

[Marshal Vespasian]

I just magnetized a few tac squads and all the HBs I got in numerous plastic kits. Ao now I have 10 HBs magnetized.

I do play against mechanicum a lot an 30 :cusss at bs5 s5 ap4 is good vs thallax.

Else not really worth.

Missiles against anything av14 is brutal. Lascannons are cool but super expensive

Edited February 1, 2021 by Marshal Vespasian

[The Scorpion]

I just magnetized a few tac squads and all the HBs I got in numerous plastic kits. Ao now I have 10 HBs magnetized.

I do play against mechanicum a lot an 30 :cusss at bs5 s5 ap4 is good vs thallax.

Else not really worth.

Missiles against anything av14 is brutal. Lascannons are cool but super expensive

 

I feel like missiles are the best choice: they're fluffy, they're decent long range anti-tank, they can be upgraded to anti-air, and _Tank Hunters_ make it easier to fish for 6's against AV14.

[Bung]

I have 10 Culverins build and have Lascannons, Autocanons and Plasmacanons to be build.

Probably enough Missle Launchers when i can build everything in the stash.

 

 

I have a question, top.

I got a PREATOR ARMOURED ASSAULT LAUNCHER as my first LoW as i thought a bigger sizzed Whirlwind should be funny.

 

What are your thoughts about this one?

[Indefragable]

Questions:

 

1. The only IF units that can take storm shields are terminators, correct? An IC* must be in terminator armor (Indomitus or Cataphractii, no Tartaros) in order to get a shield, correct? 
2. How does Blood and Honor interact with the Master-Crafted nature of Solarite Power Gauntlet? Master-Crafted would work in non-Challenge situations, but in a Challenge BnH takes precedence (especially since it's a straight upgrade), correct?
3. For the Stone Gauntlet RoW, you can take Praetors, and you can take a single Consul of any type, you are just limited to a single non-Champion Consul, correct? Can you take straight-up-non-specialized-Centurions (not that you would want to?)

 

 

Working on an Allied Detachment/possible Zone Mortalis VII Legion detachment with the idea of some day being part of a "Siege of Terra: Good Guys" force of some sort. 

 

Hidden Content

HQ:

Praetor/Champion with stormshield, Solarite Power Gauntlet, and moustache. 

 

TROOPS:

Breacher squads, just 1 for now

 

ELITES:

Terminators or Veterans or something fun....probably not Templar since if it ever gets paired with V or IX Legion, choppiness will not be a concern.

 

FAST ATTACK:

Seekers or Phalanx Warder

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

HSS with missile launchers

 

 

 

*unless they are named Pollux, Alexis; Capt. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Indefragable

[Slips]

1. Last I heard, Tartaros can still take Storm Shields.

Yes.

Yes. 

[Askari]

BnH doesn't override master crafted. Remember that blood and honour was nerfed to only re-roll ones. In a challenge you would be able to re-roll all ones to hit and then you would have one re-roll for any failed to hit roll from master crafted. Also whuile we're on the subject of master crafted redundancy, if  you decide to take a Delegatus in terminator armor or with a boarding shield, it is usually better to just use a powerfist and alocate your free master craft to it rather than taking the more expensive Soalrite gauntlet. If you can't get the bonus attack from two weapons, a master crafted powerfist is identical to  a solarite gauntlet  against non-vehicles

Edited March 2, 2021 by Askari

[Indefragable]

Can you run Stone Gauntlet in a Zone Mortalis FOC? 

[Marshal Vespasian]

Thats what its made for innit?

I'd be surprised if you couldnt.

I guess youd only need one breacher squad then.

 

Re: BnH i forget about that rule so often

Edited May 5, 2021 by Marshal Vespasian