[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Bung]

I think the thing with widespread 2W is that there's a premium on S8 AP2 - and thus also good invun saves. In that environment, solarite gauntlets, storm shields and to a lesser extent Warder kit are all in a really good spot.

 

 

 

Now, that's all fine and dandy if IF become more focused into a more combat-orientated legion... but I don't think it would be unreasonable for a third party to note that it would be a cake-and-eat-it case if that legion also happens to have BS5 on rending assault cannon that can deep strike via either standard terminator armour or Hammerfall - on top of the rending BS5 autocannon.

 

 

I rather think Fists are sitting in the weird Spot of getting something of everything.

 

We get though stuff with Stormshields and the Wardars, but we probably will be never as though as Salamanders.

Their Firedrakes with a Primus Medicae will probably heavy to shift.

They reroll Armour saves against Blast and Templates, get a 3+ Inv Save, a FNP save thorugh the Narthecium and with the Primus Medicae  5+ rerollable It will not die in addition to their Legion Astartes Rule reducing strength of some weapon types.

 

Yes we get the BS 5 rending assault cannon, but Rending and Breach are given out like candy for weapons, and we probably will never have as much as Blood Angels.

 

As for Templars, i expect some of the other Legion on the same level or even above like UM Suzarins.

 

The only other thing, i havent ssen matched is the profit for some Vehicles, Sicaran Battle Tanks, Punishers, the Fire Raptor, Dreads with Auto weapons.

 

As before Fists are a generalist Legion, that got some great Buffs on Warders and in a new environment with this rules may be preferable, as we dont know whats usefull, but we will pe outperformed by Legions that can stronger specialise on something.

 

The other thing is, we have rather ovious buffs anyone can see, but i think something like Leadership Buffs in a LA ruke may be stronger in the end, with lower Moral and more pinning weapons.

 

There havent been any games with the full new rules to see where people need to adapt, especially after the game was rather stagnant for years.

 

Thats why i think "Sky is Falling" "IF overpowered" is to early. I rather think we will and in the upper midfield and not as one of the top legions.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think the real question for Fist players will be "Will the 3++ and gauntlet be worth the 75 points over powerfist cataphractii?". For other terminators, probably. For elite, WS 5 models that can hit at initiative and push wounds through, probably not. Certainly not a reason  for being OP.

[Slips]

Yeah I wouldn't give everyone a Sol Glove esp if they dont have WS5. Sure the MC reroll is nice but for the price increase its not worth it to me. Maybe just on the Sarge in the event that he gets in a challenge to up his odds of MAD in the worst case.

 

Similarly, I'm pondering if I order some Rotor Cannons to have a squad for BS5 massed pinning checks.

 

 

 

I think we now have BA levels of assault cannon spam too?

Edited April 3, 2022 by Slips

[Bung]

@Slips

Sol Gauntlet is the same as Thunder Hammer which got Sunder.

So the question is reliability or better anti tank. But it may mix well in different squads like veterans.

 

I hobe that the Assault Cannon stuff will change.

[Scammel]

Yeah I wouldn't give everyone a Sol Glove esp if they dont have WS5. Sure the MC reroll is nice but for the price increase its not worth it to me. Maybe just on the Sarge in the event that he gets in a challenge to up his odds of MAD in the worst case.

I think I'm always taking the gauntlet on models that would otherwise have powerfists, because those attacks are few, high-quality and especially valuable in a 2W meta. Increasing a unit's cc output by around 50% in many situations feels valuable when each hit is highly likely to translate to a kill.

 

Now we know that basic infantry can take assault cannon, the Castellan makes more sense to me - as a pure sit-back-and-pop character it's fairly unimpressive, but he can effectively unlock a more mobile approach to heavy support squads by allowing them to score and making it more viable to move them up-field. Brrrrt

 

Regarding the 'are we now OP?' discussion, I want to stress that I'm very, very happy to have a significantly more powerful list and I'm going to enjoy playing it with little to trouble my conscience. None of these units are truly filth in a vacuum - every legion gets good toys, after all - it's more the extent and variety of toys on offer:

 

- Excellent elite terminators who excel against others of their ilk with reliable gauntlets and shields to assist in mirror matches

- Great 'brick' line infantry in Warders, who become quite capable of walking across the board with Rann, the Gauntlet and FNP support

- Powerful special characters who mesh very well with particular cc units, and easy access to 3++ regular characters

- BS5 rotor, assault and autocannon for whatever particular unit types offended you in a past life - including on vehicles

- The ability to deep strike most of the above outside of the Gauntlet

 

Again, I'm not remotely complaining, but IF do have a very wide and very nasty range of approaches to take.

[The Scorpion]

Plus, the balance on Rows remains surprisingly good:

• Stone gauntelet forbids deepstrike
• Hammerfall messes your armored support
• Templar rite is very focused on templars

[Scammel]

Yeah, Templar Assault feels very much like an 'is also here', and I'm not sure when you would really take it. I think someone said that it makes Sigismund's Templar unlock redundant, but I feel it may be the other way around - Siggy can be happily slotted into, say, Hammerfall and then give those Templars deep strike as opposed to disembarkation Rage. I don't foresee many circumstances when you don't want Hammerfall or Stone Gauntlet and also want another MotL over Sigismund and want Templar troops.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yeah, Templar Assault feels very much like an 'is also here', and I'm not sure when you would really take it. I think someone said that it makes Sigismund's Templar unlock redundant, but I feel it may be the other way around - Siggy can be happily slotted into, say, Hammerfall and then give those Templars deep strike as opposed to disembarkation Rage. I don't foresee many circumstances when you don't want Hammerfall or Stone Gauntlet and also want another MotL over Sigismund and want Templar troops.

That was definitely me.

 

I think the perception of 2nd ed foc swap is coloured by 1st.

 

Making templars troops in 1st makes them scoring in addition to making them not take up an elite slot. In 2nd, they simply don't take up the elite slot. From what I've heard, the missions are broadly the same, so scoring is still very important. So to compare Sigismund vs the rite:

 

-Sigismund makes them troops. There is no downside. You can take other rites.

-Templar assault makes them troops. They gain Line and Heart of the Legion. They gain rage when disembarking. There's downsides. You cant take other rites.

 

The rite is a lot better if you want templars as troops. Sigismund is better if you want to avoid clogging your elite slot.

 

But ya, the other rites are very strong and seem to have a lot of internal synergy.

[Bung]

Hammerfall seems strong.

If you do a Deep Strike Assault you can charge from Reserve.

 

So you could take 2-3 Squads of Templar Bretheren make them Deep Strike and Charge the same turn.

 

Add a CC Warlord with the +1 WS trait for WS 6 Templars.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Hammerfall seems strong.

If you do a Deep Strike Assault you can charge from Reserve.

 

So you could take 2-3 Squads of Templar Bretheren make them Deep Strike and Charge the same turn.

 

Add a CC Warlord with the +1 WS trait for WS 6 Templars.

I guess the caveat to that is that your deepstrike assault is coming down in a relatively localised area. You can't have templars teleporting on the right flank to chew up infantry and terminators with guns on the left to burn down vehicles.

 

It's also important to note that these elite units that you're tossing up the board don't score. Not terminators, not templars, not phalanx warders. You need stuff that can score, or it can turn into a backline trade situation.

 

I'm sure everyone's first few lists with the new rules are going to faceplant, whatever the legion. It's hard to score now lol.

[Bung]

I think other Legions Profit more from Deep Strike Assault than Templars.

 

The Raven Guard Special unit with Jump Packs for example.

One or 2 could still wreak Tacticals to weight of attacks.

 

But my first lists will have stuff that got a nice boost.

Like the Sicaran Omega.

[Scammel]

 

Hammerfall seems strong.

If you do a Deep Strike Assault you can charge from Reserve.

 

So you could take 2-3 Squads of Templar Bretheren make them Deep Strike and Charge the same turn.

 

Add a CC Warlord with the +1 WS trait for WS 6 Templars.

I guess the caveat to that is that your deepstrike assault is coming down in a relatively localised area. You can't have templars teleporting on the right flank to chew up infantry and terminators with guns on the left to burn down vehicles.

 

It's also important to note that these elite units that you're tossing up the board don't score. Not terminators, not templars, not phalanx warders. You need stuff that can score, or it can turn into a backline trade situation.

 

I'm sure everyone's first few lists with the new rules are going to faceplant, whatever the legion. It's hard to score now lol.

 

Wait - are troops not scoring by default now? That would change things for Hammerfall.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

 

Hammerfall seems strong.

If you do a Deep Strike Assault you can charge from Reserve.

 

So you could take 2-3 Squads of Templar Bretheren make them Deep Strike and Charge the same turn.

 

Add a CC Warlord with the +1 WS trait for WS 6 Templars.

I guess the caveat to that is that your deepstrike assault is coming down in a relatively localised area. You can't have templars teleporting on the right flank to chew up infantry and terminators with guns on the left to burn down vehicles.

 

It's also important to note that these elite units that you're tossing up the board don't score. Not terminators, not templars, not phalanx warders. You need stuff that can score, or it can turn into a backline trade situation.

 

I'm sure everyone's first few lists with the new rules are going to faceplant, whatever the legion. It's hard to score now lol.

Wait - are troops not scoring by default now? That would change things for Hammerfall.

I mean, it would be redundant to give Templars Line after making them troops in Templar assault.

 

Stone gauntlet makes phalanx warders line and troops.

 

I remember seeing a rule that made assault marines line, despite already being troops.

 

Sky hunter phalanx makes the bikes line and troops.

 

Pride makes the termies and vets line and troops.

 

Armoured spearhead makes predators line and troops.

 

Like idk, it's looking like troops aren't automatically scoring any more and need the line subtype.

Edited April 3, 2022 by SkimaskMohawk

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Loving the Castellan Consul that grant the Line subytype to hvy. support squads.  

[Slips]

[Scammel]

I hadn't quite twigged how toothy the new Preds can be. While assault cannon feel more cost-effective on infantry, the basic, un-upgraded Pred is throwing out 6 BS5 heavy bolter shots and 4(?) BS5 S8 rending autocannon shots, for less than a mildly-upgraded Tactical squad.

[Bung]

I hadn't quite twigged how toothy the new Preds can be. While assault cannon feel more cost-effective on infantry, the basic, un-upgraded Pred is throwing out 6 BS5 heavy bolter shots and 4(?) BS5 S8 rending autocannon shots, for less than a mildly-upgraded Tactical squad.

 

Maybe you should Upgrade to a Sicaran Punisher for 70 Points.

3 Heavy Bolter + the big one.

And everything counts as Definsive Weapons and can use the Intercept Reaction.

[The Scorpion]

Yeah, but everyone can field Punishers. Not everyone can field assault cannon preds.

 

Gotta flex on the traitors.

[Scammel]

Yeah, but everyone can field Punishers. Not everyone can field assault cannon preds.

 

Gotta flex on the traitors.

- Walks in

- Dumps 12 BS5 S6 rending shots into you

- Refuses to elaborate further to your smoking corpse

- Leaves

Edited April 4, 2022 by Scammel

[Bung]

Yeah, but everyone can field Punishers. Not everyone can field assault cannon preds.

 

Gotta flex on the traitors.

Third Point.

We can even field Assault Cannon Rhinos with this rules.

[CaptainBoxman]

Now that we know we can keep Huscarls - how would you choose to arm them at this point knowing what little we know?

[Scammel]

If they're becoming WS6 with shield wall it seems a shame not to make use of both that and a MC reroll with solarite gauntlets, and make each hit lethal. 

 

My overall sense of where they might lie depends very heavily on their cost; in their current iteration I'm not sure they're any better than a similar unit of Tartaros. The new WS system means that extra pip isn't insignificant, but given all IF Terminators are now set to have access to gauntlets it may just be a wash again unless they come with some form of relative discount.

[SkimaskMohawk]

If they're becoming WS6 with shield wall it seems a shame not to make use of both that and a MC reroll with solarite gauntlets, and make each hit lethal. 

 

My overall sense of where they might lie depends very heavily on their cost; in their current iteration I'm not sure they're any better than a similar unit of Tartaros. The new WS system means that extra pip isn't insignificant, but given all IF Terminators are now set to have access to gauntlets it may just be a wash again unless they come with some form of relative discount.

 

It's 325 points for solarite+vigil+deepstrike on either version of terminator, and 325 for solarite huscarls. You get WS5, stubborn and can be taken in a compulsory slot. I'd call that a relative discount

[Scammel]

Oh, I wasn't aware that the rules and cost were confirmed. The Tartaros ability to sweep still makes me think it's a tight contest (especially if Sigismund were to accompany the unit and give them +2 to that roll) but I still think they're a very good unit in the new system.

[MichaelCarmine]

Oh, I wasn't aware that the rules and cost were confirmed. The Tartaros ability to sweep still makes me think it's a tight contest (especially if Sigismund were to accompany the unit and give them +2 to that roll) but I still think they're a very good unit in the new system.

With the new Leadership modifiers for Challenges/Shellshock/Fear, i think Stubborn is much better and should not be overlooked!