A place for Warp Talons?

[Teetengee]

The main problems with warp talons as I understand them are thus:

1. They compete with spawn/heldrake/bikes.

2. Their blind rule is too hard to use.

3. They are a cc oriented deepstrike unit.

 

With the new rules I think there may be a solution to some of this.

1. Heldrakes were most efficient when destroying 3+ saves but have been nerfed recently. Also unbound means no competition if you go that route.

2. We need a way to get them where we want them.

3. They need to survive long enough to assault.

 

The answer to 2 and 3 I believe comes in the form of Cursed Earth. It will give them a massive bonus to survivability (4++ minimum depending on other factors) and will allow you to get them to hit just the right unit with blind. I think a small unit of slaanesh marked Warptalons (so they go first against meq) or a larger unit of nurgle/tzeentch (since they will then be strongly survivable) may be a useful addition to our tactics, and give us some more usability out of a pretty sculpt.

 

This however does require a fairly hefty investment in Malefic which is probably best served by using CS supplement and/or Daemon Allies. (Remember the grimoire works on Warp talons too).

[minigun762]

I never considered them a deepstriking unit. They've always been the equivalent of super Raptors in my eyes.

To that effect, I think jumping up the board makes far more sense.

[Fatespinner]

Yeah, Warp Talons desperately need some kind of rule that lets them charge into assault on the turn they deep strike in, even if it's only a limited charge (say 1d6" instead of the normal 2d6").  I agonized over building my current Raptors as Talons and eventually, the fact that Talons would basically never get to use Warpflame Strike and actually survive to the next assault phase sold me on building them as Raptors.  Even giving them Blight Grenades (or a similar kind of defensive grenade) would prevent them from getting totally screwed over after striking onto the board.  As they are, they're pretty much inferior to standard Raptors (especially since Raptors can take meltaguns and plasma guns for versatility).

[Iron Father Ferrum]

For me, the number one problem is that they're an assault unit without assault grenades...

[Sheesh Mode]

Warptalons have a very specific role in the Chaos Space Marines Codex which is - in my opinion - to fight other elites. They are too expensive to throw at hoards and cannot take on vehicles; even if they have MoK for extra attacks they are still better suited to overwhelming enemy close-assault equivalents. There are several reasons. 

 

1. Most enemy assault units will not be in cover when you charge them because they, like the talons, are attempting to close with you as quickly as possible. Thus you do not have to worry about striking first or last.

2. Warptalons have a comparatively equipment roster and better stat line than most other armies jump troops, including Blood Angel Vanguard Veterans and Death Company. They can match spacemarines and out-do them because of Marks and their lightning claws, surviving some powerweapon attacks thanks to their Daemon invulnerable save. (5++ or 1/3rd chance)

3. Warpatalons work best with assault armies, particularly ones that use landraiders. They can follow the metal behemoth and hide behind its bulk while it plows forward into the enemy line. They are meant to provide added pressure but cannot do it on their own; charging forward in conjunction to one or two other powerful assault units will force your opponent to choose between targets, a terrible place to be for any tactician. 

 

Armies Warptalons excel against: 

Eldar/Dark Eldar 

Spacemarines (Particularly Bike armies) 

Blood Angels

Dark Angels 

 

Armies Warptalons are useful against:

Tau (Particularly Crises Suits/Farsight Enclaves)

Imperial Guard (Especially blob armies)

 

Armies Warptalons Struggle Against:

Imperial Guard Tank Platoons

Greyknights

Orks

Tyranids

 

 

This is all from my experience as a Black Legion player who runs a full unit of Warptalons with MoK and VotLW and does not use spawn or heldrakes I have never expected my talons to carry the game or be more than another distraction, but they have certainly done their jobs as high flying space-bird-demons

[minigun762]

I could see some value in them against Orks or Tyranid if they had MoN. Being wounded on 6's is not bad at all.

[Sheesh Mode]

I could see some value in them against Orks or Tyranid if they had MoN. Being wounded on 6's is not bad at all.

Against Orks I can understand, however against Tyranids who - in my experience - deploy multiple units equipped with poison, I find T5 makes no difference. 

[Lucien Eilam]

2. Their blind rule is too hard to use.

3. They are a cc oriented deepstrike unit.

 

 

Just because they're an assault unit with a close range special ability doesn't mean you have to drop them in the open right next to an enemy unit. Think of Warpflame Strike as being there for flavour, not their raison d'être. If you're going to deep strike, consider dropping them behind cover, maybe tagging a unit with Blind as a bonus, and move them in for a charge next turn.

[minigun762]

 

 

I could see some value in them against Orks or Tyranid if they had MoN. Being wounded on 6's is not bad at all.

Against Orks I can understand, however against Tyranids who - in my experience - deploy multiple units equipped with poison, I find T5 makes no difference.

Ahh fair point, I forgot about poison.

[Axagoras]

well they are dæmons, so couldnt you ally with chaos dæmons to get the grimoire and use cursed earth for a 2++ save?

[Teetengee]

@Lucien, just because the Strike rule is often best ignored doesn't mean there isn't some way to use it better. I do think that perhaps vehicles could be used to separate LOS so that the warp talons can isolate blind, and then next turn assault to target a particular enemy.

@Axagoras, that was my main point, my other question would be what mark is most useful on them.

Khorne seems unnecessary as it doesn't give them any advantages that cannot be achieved by adding more bodies.

Nurgle gives +1 toughness which is useful against many armies but perhaps not in the targeted kill above.

Tzeentch stacks well with a single cursed earth but not so well with the grimoire.

Slaanesh means these will take out MEQ very quickly.

 

I think Slaanesh is best for when creating units designed to assassinate specific enemies/meqs where Tzeentch is best for survivability. 

[Strazhakov]

I can't remember if I ever used to Deepstrike with my Warp Talons. I use them very similar to what Sheesh Mode eloquently explained. Jump from Cover to Cover and attack their non TEQ Elite units (best if they are already tarpitted by Spawn or something else). They slice through Elite Marines like a hot knife through butter. Especially if you splurged on Mark of Slaanesh and VotLW. Expensive as hell but glorius if you pull it off.

 

I reckon I'd still use them if they were even worse than they are now just because I love the models that much. But then I put Dual Lightning Claws on my Chosen...

 

Lightning Claws for the Win s'all I'm sayin'

[minigun762]

well they are dæmons, so couldnt you ally with chaos dæmons to get the grimoire and use cursed earth for a 2++ save?

I believe they are capped at a 3++ save.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

well they are dæmons, so couldnt you ally with chaos dæmons to get the grimoire and use cursed earth for a 2++ save?

I believe they are capped at a 3++ save.

 

 

MoT caps them at 3++.  I don't believe the Grimoire or Cursed Earth have a cap.

[minigun762]

 

 

 

well they are dæmons, so couldnt you ally with chaos dæmons to get the grimoire and use cursed earth for a 2++ save?

I believe they are capped at a 3++ save.

MoT caps them at 3++. I don't believe the Grimoire or Cursed Earth have a cap.

Interesting, would have some potential then. Basically fast moving assault terminators.

[Sheesh Mode]

well they are dæmons, so couldnt you ally with chaos dæmons to get the grimoire and use cursed earth for a 2++ save?

Axagoras makes a good point. Warptalons benefit from the Demonic Loci special rule granted by icons from Codex Daemons; this means you can deepstrike your talons within 6" of the loci without scattering. I have toyed with the idea of taking daemonic cavalry, charging the enemy line, and deepstriking minimum sized warptalon squads nearby to make maximum use of their Blind ability while also increasing the chances of doing it on a wider front. 

 

I'm not sure which is better; Seekers of Slaanesh and MoS Talons for their speed and anti-MeQ capabilities? Or Juggernauts of Khorne and MoK Talons for their Furious Charge and anti-hoard abilities?

 

Either way it is totally viable to do the invulnerable shenanigans mentioned in other comments, just expensive, and for that reason I do not think it is as viable. Warptalons are not a strong deathstar, despite their upgrades, they are too specialized to be capable of killing practically anything they assault. Any Vehicles Av11 or higher simply ignore them and certain marks are only useful in key situations. (See: MoS, MoK) 

 

I do not know because I do not run daemonic allies and thus can only guess at possibilities. 

[Emperors Immortals]

Glad loci was mentioned. I'm toying with getting Talons to Deepstrike and support my daemonettes to more effectively tie down a big chunk of enemy for a second wave attack.

 

Anybody tried this yet? And can we summon through demonancy and use the loci?

[Prot]

I LOVE the models, but they kinda stunk for performance.

 

What about, Crimson Slaughter jump pack Sorc with Daemon + Malefic?

 

Cursed earth plus dropping squads of daemons along the way?

[the jeske]

You still need at least 2 sources of cursed earth , otherwise it would be like runing an anti tank unit with a single melta gun.

Besides the normal problems people have with talons , my problem with them is that they are costed like a deathstar [before support units are added] , but neither have the killiness or the resilience of other deathstars. They also tie up our HQs , which limits our use of some [belfegor , huron , foot sorc]. I wish marks would turn them in to "demons of" or at least if they[and possessed] had a special rule that lets demons join them.

[Teetengee]

I think a cheap MSU could be used effectively especially alongside allied demons. Tzeentchian demons in particular would likely be a good choice as it would allow for plenty of warp dice for cursed earth and other goodness.