Dataslate Discussion: Cypher, Lord of the Fallen

[Shaezus]

Just give the raider to a squad as dedicated transport, then have mephy give them the eye and they'll let him have it in no time :D

 

Aye it means Corb and Mephy have to huddle behind the raider for a turn if the oppo goes first..and yep it could possibly get blown up and leave them stranded but with the new cover rules, and using corbs reroll on a failed terrain test, the odds are more favourable now.

[Shaezus]

There's definitely a place for cypher somewhere, but is it with mephiston? Infiltrating a tooled-up death company in a land raider redeemer sounds...well, I don't think there's actually a single word to describe that..

[Xenith]

Cypher does not grant infiltrate to the unit.

[Venemox]

Worth.  Every.  Point.  Shrouded (especially during night fighting), full BS (10!!) overwatch (with Plasma pistol), double pistol shots (BS 10!!), AP2 attacks in CC (WS 7, I 8), Hit and Run (without taking Dante), Eternal Warrior.  Truly a worthy addition to any unit that's going to be mixing it up with the enemy at close range.

 

Oh, and about Infiltrate:

 

'Units that contain at least one model with this special rule...'

 

So, while the idea that the order of deployment precludes that portion of the rule is an interesting one, it leads down a rabbit hole that ends up with Infiltrators being unable to use transports, an infiltrate IC from being able to join a non-Infiltrate unit at all during deployment, and an Order Exterminatus from the Moderatii for threads that discuss it in too much depth...

 

But, love that Cypher!

[Jolemai]

Cypher does not grant infiltrate to the unit.

Would you mind explaining why not?

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

Cypher does not grant infiltrate to the unit.

Would you mind explaining why not?

 

 

Because characters join units during deployment, not before.

[Jolemai]

 

 

Cypher does not grant infiltrate to the unit.

Would you mind explaining why not?

 

 

Because characters join units during deployment, not before.

 

 

I appreciate the reply, but that's not an explanation. Above, I have explained why I feel you, Xenith and any others are mistaken for this edition and for the benefit of myself and others who think similarly to me, we would appreciate a more in depth explanation.

 

To use another example, lets take the Land Speeder Storm. From the Infiltrate rules:

 

 

 

If a unit with infiltrate deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they may infiltrate along with their transport.

 

The Land Speeder Storm does not have the Infiltrate special rule, so how do Scouts deploy inside it and Infiltrate? To use your logic, the Storm has to be deployed inside your deployment zone, and then the Scouts would have to somehow embark and then completely move the model (note I am not referring to a Scout move) to Infiltrate it, both of which are not permitted by the rulebook.

 

In short, Characters (which are units for all intents and purposes) join units in the Deployment phase, just as units join transports - dedicated or otherwise (again, which are units for all intents and purposes) - do. If no single model has Infiltrate, then this unit deploys on the field. If a single model has Infiltrate, the unit(s) are deploy after your opponent (or a role off if they have some too).

[Jolemai]

As for Shrike's ruling:

 

 

 

See, But Remain UnseenShrike has the Stealth and Infiltrate special rules. Before deploying, he may only join squads of jump infantry

 

All that this means is that he can only deploy with jump infantry. It means he can't deploy with infantry, bikes, etc, but he can join other units during the battle.

 

That's it.

[Memento Of Prospero]

As for Shrike's ruling:

 

 

 

See, But Remain UnseenShrike has the Stealth and Infiltrate special rules. Before deploying, he may only join squads of jump infantry

 

All that this means is that he can only deploy with jump infantry. It means he can't deploy with infantry, bikes, etc, but he can join other units during the battle.

 

That's it.

 

Remark on the use of the words before deploying. That's the only reason you can fudge the rules. Unless models join units before deployment in the BRB.

[Memento Of Prospero]

At any rate, I am no expert on 40k rules lawyering, so feel free to do what you think is best. It's not like GW actually cares to give out consistant rules or give us clear rulings on units and models that have been out for several months/years/decades.

 

@ Jolemai, The landspeeder storm is a dedicated transport. One does not join a transport. Characters join units, they do not embark on them. Otherwise you would not be able to board a storm raven. Appels to oranges.

[Morticon]

There was that whole "do ICs grant those abilities" in 6th.  

From what i've read so far 7th clears this up nicely.  

 

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being

deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your

opponent of which unit it has joined."

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

There was that whole "do ICs grant those abilities" in 6th.  

From what i've read so far 7th clears this up nicely.  

 

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being

deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your

opponent of which unit it has joined."

 

 

That bit doesn't really clear up the infiltrating issue no?

[Xenith]

Mort: Even more simple that that, the 7th ed rulebook states:

 

"An independent character with infiltrate does not confer this to a unit without infiltrate, a unit with infiltrate cannot be joined by a character without infiltrate"

 

Or words to that effect.

 

Ok, while I can't find the phrase, non infiltrating units must be deployed before the infiltrator., as per Mort.

[Sception]

That's the same wording as 6th, and it fails in the same way. It tells you two means of beginning a game with a unit. Not two things you have to do if you begin the game with a unit, to things that by doing them allow you to begin the game with a unit. Since both of those things happen after deployment has started, but before the first turn, it's clear that the 'begin the game' referred to in the quote is referring to starting the first game turn with that unit. it is not referring to joining a unit before deployment because a character clearly cannot be deployed in coherency with a unit before deployment nor can can you inform an opponent that a character in reserve is attached to a unit in reserve because nothing has been declared in reserve yet.

 

This would be a problem for transports except that the rules explicitly say units can deploy already embarked in transports and that this allows the transports to infiltrate, neither of which is the case for infiltrating characters joining units. If anything, the explicit rule preventing non-infiltrating characters from joining infiltrating units at all during deployment implies the opposite precedent.

 

What is intended? Hard to say. The rules are a mess, none of the confusing issues of 6th were resolved in 7th, and in fact the rules of 7th create several new rules voids where there is no clear ruling. For instance - all units are part of a detachment, but what detachment exactly is it that conjured units are part of? The rules never say, other than that they definitely aren't part of the conjurer's detachment if the conjurer isn's from codex: chaos daemons, because then they're not from the same faction.

[Xenith]

 

 

There was that whole "do ICs grant those abilities" in 6th.  

From what i've read so far 7th clears this up nicely.  

 

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being

deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in Reserve, by you informing your

opponent of which unit it has joined."

 

 

That bit doesn't really clear up the infiltrating issue no?

 

 

Yes. Trust me, this discussion has gone on for years in the Chaos forum due to Master of Deception.

 

The unit without infiltrate must deploy first, before infiltrators. This means that they unit is already on the table when Cypher gets put down.

 

You can, of course, choose to keep both in reserve and outflank them.

[Morollan]

Sadly, 7e did nothing to sort this mess out. The rules for IC's deploying with units are exactly the same as 6e which leaves us in exactly the same position. You cannot infiltrate an IC and a unit unless both the IC and the unit have the Infiltrate rule. Which rather defeats the object of the phrase "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule..." but there you go. GW can't/won't write good rules. Who knew?

[Spagunk]

I've always seen an infiltrating character allowing the unit they are attached to infiltrate with them. Sounds to me like a dubious way to keep certain mechanics from working. What is the point of allowing infiltrate to confer to the unit if you can't actually deploy said unit using infiltrate?

 

Usually, 40k is a permissive game in that if it allows you to do something, then it modifies/changes the rules to allow said action. I think you all just play with some "not nice" people.

 

Which reminds me of back in 5th edition when the LGS owner wrote in his book a rule on page 5 that says "Don't be a :cuss:". Anytime someone starts arguing this type of thing, the store owner would ask them to read page 5 of the rule book.

[Memento Of Prospero]

You do know that Page 5 comes from Warmachine!

[knife&fork]

Oh yeah, plenty of 'that guy' or even 'those guys' in this hobby. Certain things need to be discussed before hand to avoid slowing the game down, but when your interpretation of a rule makes the rule impossible to use I think it's time to step back and acknowledge that you might be taking RAW a bit too far.

Reminds me of 'terminators don't have terminator armor!' and a local debacle in 5th where some of the so called 'elite' players of this country decided that tank shocks where pretty much unusable because of some creative reading of the rules combined with English as a second langue issues.

[Shaezus]

Hmm. 7th ed. says that unless specified in the rule itself, an IC's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. There's no mention in the infiltrate rule of it being an exception to this.

[Spagunk]

You do know that Page 5 comes from Warmachine!

 

Was Warmachine around in back then?

[Morticon]

Hmm. 7th ed. says that unless specified in the rule itself, an IC's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. There's no mention in the infiltrate rule of it being an exception to this.

 

there is actually- "any unit with at least one model with this rule...".

 

 But, thats not the problem, it seems to be the timing of the set up that's the issue.

[Morticon]

To keep things on track of tactica, may be best to acknowledge that some groups will allow this, while others wont.  

I know locally we dont have issue with it, while my mates states side do..so, will have to be a consideration. 

Mort: Even more simple that that, the 7th ed rulebook states:

 

"An independent character with infiltrate does not confer this to a unit without infiltrate, a unit with infiltrate cannot be joined by a character without infiltrate"

 

Or words to that effect.

 

Ok, while I can't find the phrase, non infiltrating units must be deployed before the infiltrator., as per Mort.

 

 

yup yup- but remember, we're arguing the other way around!  In this situation its a "all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares" type situation.

[Demoulius]

I dont see the issue? Models with infiltrate give that to the whole unit. IC's can join a unit before you put them on the table. If theyre joined they also got infiltrate meaning they dont use normal deployment?

[Morollan]

I dont see the issue? Models with infiltrate give that to the whole unit. IC's can join a unit before you put them on the table. If theyre joined they also got infiltrate meaning they dont use normal deployment?

The problem is that models don't join before you put them on the table other than when kept in reserve. An IC joins a unit by being deployed in coherency with it. As he does not have infiltrate he needs to be deployed on the table before the infiltrating unit as infiltrators are deployed last. By the time the infiltrators are deployed the IC is already on the table.