Vendetta or Valkyrie

[Jostal]

Are Vendettas worth it?

[Kilofix]

Against other flyers, against armor, against super heavies, etc. - yes. They are a cheap source of LasCannons (twin-linked and are flying).

 

Magnetize the weapons so you can use your gunship as either a Vendetta or Valkyrie.

[CoffeeGrunt]

What reasons would there be to take a Valkyrie, then? I've only ever seen Vendettas used.

[Kontakt]

the valk is cheaper than the now much more expensive vendetta. with lots of AT options available to guard, I stick to the valkyrie when playing them.

[GrandMasterAralia]

Elysians can get half the valks in the army on the table turn 1... Thats pretty cool ;)

 

but other than that, valks and dettas serve two very different roles, the first being anti infantry the latter anti-armour. Its like comparing a flamer squad to a melta squad. Both are really good at one thing, but nooooot so good at the other. So you need to balance out what you need in your army and what you have enough of... Need to bust open a tank - vendettas' are your friend, need to throw some big pie plates on a horde - bring valkyries with multiple rocket pods...

 

cheers.

 

edit: oh yeah, and valks are dedicated transport for all Elysian units.. :)

[David Ravel]

Valk can be dedicated transport of some unit (scions, inquisition), cost less and can do alot of dmg on multiple model squad/horde with their missile pod. They have their use. Vendetta are very good flyer hunter and can be a good transport opener. Also, three TL Lascannon are very effective against MC, even Wraithknight. 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Having come from Tau, I'm eager at the prospect of being able to field an actually good Flier.

[Commander_Moustache]

Valkyries also have better space for troops. They hold 12, while a Vendetta only holds 6. But it is good for transporting a special weapon squad or a command squad or a scion squad ina pinch)

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

When I use a Vend I use it strictly for Anti Air and Anti Armor. My Valk's I actually use as a Transport that can hit and thin out hordes/troops. This was before the new Astra Militarum book so they both had the same Transport Capacity. Now it is even more stressed that the Vend can only carry 6 guys. I might throw the a Scion squad or SWS but for the most part the Vend is shootin and Scootin. Like I said Valk is all about getting my guys where they need to go. Hence no Heavy Bolters or Lascannon but always a Multiple Rocket Pod. Two Large Blasts are good for heaping wounds along with the Multi Laser.

 

One last reason I haven't gone heavy on the Vend. Everyone and their Mom took the Vend. It was Cheap effective and way too spammable. Power Gamers and anyone needing a "quick fix" brought one. This can be seen in the Astra Militarum Codex now that the price is higher and transport cut in half. I bring two maybe three if its a large game because I'm not trying to be a jerk and I don't want to have my List be about flyers I want it to be about Airborne Infantry as a theme. For effectiveness the Vend beats the Valk if you are going MSU style tactics.

 

My two cents but as stated bring magnets and actually load some people up in your Valk's. A few ten man squads should  add something interesting if you've "never seen anyone play a valk before." They wont know how to counter a quick reaction guard unit that actually can deploy and redploy as fast as possible.

 

My good friend in 5th was amazed when I first did my 6 Transport list and would load up a squad fly or "skim" over and drop them off on an objective. Pick up another squad  and drop them off. It was amazing.

 

Give it a shot and see what you think.

 

DoC

[scatmandoo]

I use the vend if I really need anti armour but in 7th and latest codex for the militarum, I normally use the valk as it as a quick way to get across the board as it is quick.

[librisrouge]

Neither. I'm not a flyer guy and the Vendetta struggles to take down the most common flyer in my meta, stormravens. At that many points, I'd rather take a number of Hydras or some Forgeworld stuff like Vultures or Sabres.

 

If you are wanting a fast cav theme. Go Valks for transport and Vultures for strike.

[Reyner]

Why would the Vendetta struggle against Stormravens? I thought 3 twin linked lascannons would do the job quite nicely =/ (I'm not a gamer so forgive my ignorance lol)

[GrandMasterAralia]

Neither. I'm not a flyer guy and the Vendetta struggles to take down the most common flyer in my meta, stormravens. At that many points, I'd rather take a number of Hydras or some Forgeworld stuff like Vultures or Sabres.

If you are wanting a fast cav theme. Go Valks for transport and Vultures for strike.

exactly what I'd do. Valks for transporting and trimming of hordes, a vulture for guns, and anti-armour from ground troops..

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I also agree a Vulture is the ultimate fire support however for a Codex only unit Vend's and Valk's aren't bad at all.

[march10k]

Elysians can get half the valks in the army on the table turn 1... Thats pretty cool

but other than that, valks and dettas serve two very different roles, the first being anti infantry the latter anti-armour. Its like comparing a flamer squad to a melta squad. Both are really good at one thing, but nooooot so good at the other. So you need to balance out what you need in your army and what you have enough of... Need to bust open a tank - vendettas' are your friend, need to throw some big pie plates on a horde - bring valkyries with multiple rocket pods...

cheers.

edit: oh yeah, and valks are dedicated transport for all Elysian units..

Valks are not automatically anti-horde. They only fill that role if you give them the rocket pod upgrade. In numbers and with the default hellstrikes, they'll keep an entire enemy air fleet jinking or hiding in continuing reserves. Hellstrikes are also good as a standby weapon to pick the last HP off of a wounded tank, but I'd take them for saving points and anti-air, if I have horde control covered (which guard generally does very well!)

Valk can be dedicated transport of some unit (scions, inquisition), cost less and can do alot of dmg on multiple model squad/horde with their missile pod. They have their use. Vendetta are very good flyer hunter and can be a good transport opener. Also, three TL Lascannon are very effective against MC, even Wraithknight.

Assuming that you take the rocket pod. The rocket pod is very attractive in a C:MT list, since stormtroopers lack horde control. But in a guard list? There are horde control alternatives that are more effective AND cheaper. Also, Valks are definitely NOT a dedicated transport for stormtroopers...unfortunately. Even in the air assault formation, the stormtroopers are required to start in the valks in reserve, but the "dedicated transport" special rule is nowhere to be found (this is critical for "objective secured"). Since the only time I'll field valks is in the air assault formation, I'll have four of them, at which point I have enough hellstrike missiles to make them decent anti-air, and since that air cav formation will be supporting an IG base list, I won't need the rocket pods for horde control. So not every context makes the rocket pod upgrade auto-include.

Valkyries also have better space for troops. They hold 12, while a Vendetta only holds 6. But it is good for transporting a special weapon squad or a command squad or a scion squad ina pinch)

I have considered hiding my squishy CCS warlord inside a vendetta, LOL.

[Frater Cornelius]

Neither, unless you play Elysian.

[librisrouge]

Why would the Vendetta struggle against Stormravens? I thought 3 twin linked lascannons would do the job quite nicely =/ (I'm not a gamer so forgive my ignorance lol)

Let's do some math. At BS 3 TL, you'll net two hits, assuming your bird got the jump on his. He'll Jink btw. Let's be generous and assume you get a glance and a pen. He will save one if those on average, thanks to Jink. Let's hope the pen gets through. You now have a slightly better than 1/6 chance to down him thanks to AP 2. You might or might not but I'm not a fan of those odds.

 

On his turn you'll get one of two things, either a BS 4 TL Multimelta to the face or a BS 4 TL Assault Cannon salvo to the rear thanks to his turret. He can do this thanks to Power of the Machine Spirit. If you're not dead, you're snap firing for the rest of the game.

 

That Raven also doesn't cost much more than your bird and is tougher and holds more.

[GrandMasterAralia]

Nice synopsis librisrouge... Ouch... :/

 

how many with Hellstrike missiles would you recommend for sole air defense, March10k? Is four your magic number? I should have specified my first post, speaking only from an Elysian view, and the anti-horde was my first thought for the valks, since I probably won't have numbers/toughness on my side when playing a drop troop army...

[librisrouge]

I would also like to bring up the potential value of the Vulture in a AA role, especially against FMCs. 23 Str 5 shots make any critter duck more than 3 Lascannons and AV 10-11 can be glance to death with a measure of reliability. While it won't do much as primary AA, it works well to support some Hydras or Vendettas you're already taking, if you are, and is still very sexy without AA targets since ground attack is their main thing anyway.

[march10k]

 

Why would the Vendetta struggle against Stormravens? I thought 3 twin linked lascannons would do the job quite nicely =/ (I'm not a gamer so forgive my ignorance lol)

Let's do some math. At BS 3 TL, you'll net two hits, assuming your bird got the jump on his. He'll Jink btw. Let's be generous and assume you get a glance and a pen. He will save one if those on average, thanks to Jink. Let's hope the pen gets through. You now have a slightly better than 1/6 chance to down him thanks to AP 2. You might or might not but I'm not a fan of those odds.

 

On his turn you'll get one of two things, either a BS 4 TL Multimelta to the face or a BS 4 TL Assault Cannon salvo to the rear thanks to his turret. He can do this thanks to Power of the Machine Spirit. If you're not dead, you're snap firing for the rest of the game.

 

That Raven also doesn't cost much more than your bird and is tougher and holds more.

 

How is it tougher? Shenanigans, by the way on the TLMM.  The vendetta should have NO trouble shooting from inside 18", forcing the raven to overfly.  Then the TLAC probably gets four hits for two HP, one of them penning...one of them being jinked away...wait, I've seen this movie before and I know how it ends.  The AC is not AP2 like the lascannon, so chances of catastrophe are even lower.  Then the vendetta flies out of range.

 

So...the math is basically the same on both sides, except that the lascannons are AP2 and the assault cannon is not.  Funny how you math-hammer out the vendetta attack to show that it's a long shot to bring down the target, then hand-wave the assault cannon attack into certain doom for the vendetta, when in fact the math is almost the same.  

 

If the stormraven gets the first shot, the MM hit will make the vendetta jink, the AC will need sixes, so we're talking two results, one of them jinked away, pretty much the same thing as above, except for the MM being AP1...and then the vendetta fliesout of range.  

 

These two fliers are VERY evenly matched, with neither likely to one-shot the other.  So no, you can't really say the Raven is dramatically superior.  It has the advantage of POTMS, but that doesn't make it killier, it just reduces the jink penalty.

 

/edit/

 

The three TLLCs get 3/2 results (glance or pen), by the way,  to 16/9 for the TLAC.  The TLLC results are more likely to be pens (needing 4s against AV12 vs 5s against AV10 for the TLAC) AND are more likely to do nasty things, with AP2 vs AP4.  If the vendetta gets the first shot (which relies on luck), and takes it from inside 18" (which is impossible to prevent), it should come out ahead.  If the Raven gets the first shot (again, luck), the vendetta probably doesn't get one at all (because it's easy to force an overflight).  Either way, as I said, neither is particularly likely to one-shot the other.

 

/edit/

 

Also, there's likely to be more than one vendetta, and not more than one raven, since the armies that get ravens are more points-intensive (EVERYTHING costs more than in a guard army), but an IG army doesn't feel a points pinch from 340 points for two vendettas.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Also, there's likely to be more than one vendetta, and not more than one raven, since the armies that get ravens are more points-intensive (EVERYTHING costs more than in a guard army), but an IG army doesn't feel a points pinch from 340 points for two vendettas.

 

Not to mention that we can Squadron where they cannot in order to save FOC Slots.