Commander_Moustache Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I guess this is related to anouther post here, but What are the views on heavy bolters for Valkyries in the new edition. Back in 5th I used them all the time and in the very few games of 6th with guard they worked a little, but I dont know if they are worth the 20pt tag for a flyer that has gotten more expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scatmandoo Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I used to have them all the time even on the vendetta in the old codex as 10 points was a no brainer. Now though at 20 points I haven't yet on the valk and definately not on the vendetta as they are just not cost effective for those points, when you take into account that you will never get both in the same arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idlem Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I use them as support if I have the spare points. I've been able to soften up a target a bit, or finish off someone fleeing as I zoom past them. They can also help supporting a disembarking unit. You can use the points better elsewhere, but if you're looking for a dump, you could do worse than them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Never. There's always a better use of the points. At ten points, they were a little silly, since you were paying for two (they're worth 5 points appiece) and only ever really firing one. Now you're paying 20 points for a heavy bolter?!? That's lascannon territory! No way a heavy bolter is worth that. I never have my squads fully pimped, I'd stuff a pair of meltas in somewhere before I wasted 20 points on a heavy bolter. JMHO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander_Moustache Posted July 7, 2014 Author Share Posted July 7, 2014 Ahh right, seems that the concensus is that they are only worht it if I have the points. So in dropping them from my two Valkyries Should I get an astropath and a Master of Ordinance for my (admitadly backfield) COmmand squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawk3015 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Good to have to negate losing some of the better weaponry like the MRP's and multi laser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Ahh right, seems that the concensus is that they are only worht it if I have the points. So in dropping them from my two Valkyries Should I get an astropath and a Master of Ordinance for my (admitadly backfield) COmmand squad? If you're fielding fliers, you need an officer of the fleet first. Good to have to negate losing some of the better weaponry like the MRP's and multi laser. That's not worth 20 points!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawk3015 Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Good to have to negate losing some of the better weaponry like the MRP's and multi laser. That's not worth 20 points!!! Until you lose those weapons that are actually effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Not even then. The primary purpose of the valk is as a flying transport. If you're taking them for their shooting, you're doing it wrong. 20 points to reduce (not eliminate) the chance of losing a ten point upgrade makes sense in what universe? If you're taking weapon destroyed results, you're about to get shot down anyway. It's good money after bad. About the only vehicle where "take more guns to reduce the risk to the main gun" makes sense is on a leman russ. And that's only a, because it's a high strength, low AP large blast, and b, because AV14 makes it more likely that the vehicle will live long enough for the potentially saved main gun to make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kontakt Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 The bolter sponsons are half cost for the scions, so if you want them, take them in an allied scion detachment (still not a good idea, IMHO). Also, the valk is too expensive (125 plus the squad inside) to be treated only as a transport, for that you can deep strike some scions and save points. Bringing multiple means you really need to start thinking carefully about their transport ability, due to how many points you are now using for them instead of chimeras. Personally, if i was taking them for support only, I'd bring a vendetta with a x3 demo charge special weapons squad instead of a valkyrie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Well, I kind of agree with that. They are about twice the cost of a chimera. I would probably not take them at all if they were not a component of the air cav formation. To me, they are four things. First, transports. Unfortunately, not dedicated transports, so they can't superscore in hover mode. Second, as fliers, they're far more resilient than a ground-based AV12 transport. Third, being fliers, they hit other fliers on fours instead of sixes. And since the air cav formation requires four of them, four hellstrike missiles is pretty decent anti-air...four S8 ordnance shots almost guarantees at least one pen, and you get two turns to play around. Fourth, after unloading the stormtroopers and the hellstrikes, all they have left is a multilaser. At that point, they're a HUGE speedbump. LAND the damned things in the enemy's path and they're a ridiculous headache. If you think of them in those terms, 125 points isn't half bad...but, yeah, any one aspect is kinda meh. I would go for the rocket pods for a pure stormtroopers army, since that lacks horde control, but they'll be supporting IG, so the hellstrikes make more sense for my particular situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Idlem Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I echo the idea of getting an Officer of the Fleet first, but at the same time, I'd never leave home without my trusty Master of Ordinance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 four hellstrike missiles is pretty decent anti-air...four S8 ordnance shots almost guarantees at least one pen You can't fire Blasts at other Fliers, so the Hellstrikes can't do Anti-Air at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawk3015 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 four hellstrike missiles is pretty decent anti-air...four S8 ordnance shots almost guarantees at least one pen You can't fire Blasts at other Fliers, so the Hellstrikes can't do Anti-Air at all. Hellstrikes are 8/3/Ordinance One use only. So they can do anti air, just not very much of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Hellstrikes are 8/3/Ordinance One use only. So they can do anti air, just not very much of it. Ordnance is a Large Blast unless otherwise specified, IIRC. You can't fire them at Fliers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxichobbit Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Hellstrikes are 8/3/Ordinance One use only. So they can do anti air, just not very much of it. Ordnance is a Large Blast unless otherwise specified, IIRC. You can't fire them at Fliers. If that was the case, current profiles would make no sense. For example, the Battle Cannon is "Ordnance 1, Large Blast". If Ordnance included Large Blast then it wouldn't need to additionally specify that the Battle Cannon is Large Blaset. Ordnance is Ordnance, Large Blast is Large Blast. One is not inclusive of the other. P41 of the rulebook. The rules for Ordnance have zero mention of it automatically having a blast of any type, just the restrictions on firing Ordnance and the bonus to armour penetration rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Huh. That makes the Valkyrie actually really terrible, IMO. Ordnance Krak Missiles that ruin the aim of the other weapons aren't that great, and I can Deep Strike my Scions anyway. Really begs the question of what you'd put in it unless you really just wanted the theme of Air Cavalry. Think I'll build mine as a Vendetta when I get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Highly recommend Magnets. As I said in another thread for transport purposes Valk's are pretty good. If you bring a pair of Valks and a pair of Vend's then I don't see an enemy "wasting" anti air at the Valks letting them get your troops where you want. Is it the most awesome of awesome? No but it does work fairly well I think especially with practice. As for Heavy Bolters I would say never. Spend those points on new spinning rims for your Chimera or Taurox first. You can only get one to shoot at a target and a heavy bolter isn't going to do much...................I guess if you are playing an apocalypse game then maybe. DoC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander_Moustache Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Huh. That makes the Valkyrie actually really terrible, IMO. Ordnance Krak Missiles that ruin the aim of the other weapons aren't that great, and I can Deep Strike my Scions anyway. Really begs the question of what you'd put in it unless you really just wanted the theme of Air Cavalry. Think I'll build mine as a Vendetta when I get it. Thats why its best to upgrade them to Multiple rocket pods. They are two large blasts at bolter streangth, very useful to take out horde of light infantry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I can take two Wyverns for that, which'll do the job so much better. I can't help but feel I won't need something to move up the field that aggressively that can't already Deep Strike or won't fit in a Vendetta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawk3015 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Flamer/Melta Special weapon squads in a Vendetta or a shotgun/flamer veterans squad for objective holding in a Valkyrie. And the flyers add some additional tactical options after they have dropped their cargo/can support said cargo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I may dig out my copy of the Taros Campaign 2nd Ed book, and see how the Vulture fares. T-L Punisher sounds juicy enough, a pity Pask can't pilot it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderhawk3015 Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 The rules as listed in Aeronautic Imperails, or whatever the FW book is called has me wanting to make a flight section of them set up as multi-role ground attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 It's true that a valk with hellstrikes isn't very good at anti-air. And I would never take a valk for that...but if I'm fielding the air cav formation, I have four of them by default, and four hellstrike missiles (times two turns) is decent anti-air. At the same time, the 12 shots from the multilasers should land two more hits. Depending on the flier in question, two S6 hits may not mean much, but if that's the case, then 6 S6 hits probably wouldn't have mattered, either. The cool thing is, each of the valks in the formation is separate, they're not a squadron, so I get to fire one missile at a time, and if the flier jinks or is dead, I can stop shooting at it. With eight total missiles, I could potentially keep an enemy flier or two jinking or off the board the entire game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andhil Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 I can take two Wyverns for that, which'll do the job so much better. I can't help but feel I won't need something to move up the field that aggressively that can't already Deep Strike or won't fit in a Vendetta. True, but then there's the slots. One is Fast Attack, the other is Heavy support. I find it redundant to compare units from different slot choices, even if they perform the same task. Bringing a Valk with MRP's means bringing decent Anti-infantry weapons, with transport capacity, and mobility while still allowing me to load up on Lemans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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