What are we waiting for?

[Leif Bearclaw]

I really want to see the Prospero book, so sad it's been pushed back (but I'd rather have Alan and co write a good book that works with the new psychic system than write something without having the chance to test and revise before publishing).

 

Dying to see what Forgeworld write for the Sons background, really want to see what the new units are for them. Hoping for Scarab Occult (would love to see these as the terminator version of something like the seer council) and Hidden Ones in some form as well as rules for Magnus and the Legion, would love to see something cool done with the cults too. Maybe something like individual Thousand Sons librarians only being able to draw from one discipline but getting some small bonus?

 

My idea for the legion was just give them one extra rule '....And Also A Wizard' which gives a unit Brotherhood of Sorcerers in some form, for example 'Legion Assault Squad....And Also A Wizard', or 'Legion Glaive Super-Heavy Special Weapons Tank...And Also A Wizard'.There, jobs "done".

 

So...pretty much everything Thousand Sons related...

Would you then charge more for Son's units? Because that would be substantially better than extant Legiones Astartes rules, especially with the new psychic phase.

[Zeratil]

  Oh yeah, you couldn't give a unit as powerful a buff as brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers for free. Levity aside I fully expect any unit with the Legion Astartes (Thousand Sons) to be able to take an option giving them Brotherhood of Sorcerors (ML1) and one roll on one of the psychic tables for a number of points, how much I imagine would need to be tested. What thier free Legiones Astartes rules would be like I'm not sure, I can definitely see something about them not being trusted by many other legions/imperial forces - something like ICs never being able to join allied units and visa versa maybe - but it's tough, psykers are a large part of the unique part of the Sons, but just giving brotherhood of sorcerers for free would most likely represent an escalation of legion power without a points cost increase, but that would also make them very different than every other legion in terms of base mechanics who do not pay anything extra for their LA rules, even ones as good as say LA (Iron Hands).  The only way to do it and make it cost-neutral would be for their 'downside' trait to also be the harshest of any legion, although I'm not sure that would work within the existing framework.

 

I presume the tutelaries will also make an appearance in some form as wargear, hopefully as an item that allows a re-roll on psychic tests and/or provides some protection against the new, harsher perils. 

 

Overall I expect the Sons to be mechanically the most divergent legion, it's just a question of how far, something like that needs a lot of thought and testing. I'm bummed that it's been delayed, but I understand the reasons. Thousand Sons have never been very good/cost effective in 40k because their abilities are very overpriced on one wound models in squads. I'd much rather wait a year and have something flavourful, enjoyable and balanced against other 30k forces.

 

Stating Magnus is going to be equally difficult, if they're going to keep Horus as the most expensive Primarch there's going to be real problems accurately balancing Magnus' psychic abilities between it's backround level and the game mechanics. To match the background he would pretty much have to be mastery level 5, with some ability to choose his powers a la ascended Lorgar. He's no slouch in combat either in A Thousand Sons, no Russ, Horus or Angron by any means, but he has always been represented as more capable in combat than say Lorgar. Of course how much of this is inherent talent compared to psychic enhancement is up for debate. I would fully expect Magnus to run at 495 points with WS/BS 6, S/T/W/I 6, 4A, 3+Armour, 3+Inv, some sort of two-handed AP2 Axe that doesn't do much else and some sort of special rule for shooting things with eye-lasers...

[Leif Bearclaw]

I get the being bummed, seeing as I'm stuck waiting for the other half of Prospero .

The thing that really grates though, is the extent to which they're advancing the plot. This means backtracking to do Prospero, which is apparently pre Istvaan III now. It's going to be a strange leap, going from the ramping tension of the Heresy, the corruption of the Traitors and the shattering of the loyalists back to the opening stages, before the Warmaster had raised his banner in open rebellion.

[Kol Saresk]

I get the being bummed, seeing as I'm stuck waiting for the other half of Prospero .

The thing that really grates though, is the extent to which they're advancing the plot. This means backtracking to do Prospero, which is apparently pre Istvaan III now. It's going to be a strange leap, going from the ramping tension of the Heresy, the corruption of the Traitors and the shattering of the loyalists back to the opening stages, before the Warmaster had raised his banner in open rebellion.

True. But you just can't start the Heresy, without the Betrayal. It'd be like starting a Star Wars marathon at Episode I rather than IV.

[Kronos]

I get the being bummed, seeing as I'm stuck waiting for the other half of Prospero .

The thing that really grates though, is the extent to which they're advancing the plot. This means backtracking to do Prospero, which is apparently pre Istvaan III now. It's going to be a strange leap, going from the ramping tension of the Heresy, the corruption of the Traitors and the shattering of the loyalists back to the opening stages, before the Warmaster had raised his banner in open rebellion.

True. But you just can't start the Heresy, without the Betrayal. It'd be like starting a Star Wars marathon at Episode I rather than IV.

Quoted for truth, also Black library do it all the time don't they?, going in and out, Isstvan needed to be the starting point, as to me that was the first act of Heresy, even though Prospero happened before due to Magnus' divination abilities, so more fo a ripple efffect/cpnsequance... even if it happened before.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I get the being bummed, seeing as I'm stuck waiting for the other half of Prospero .

The thing that really grates though, is the extent to which they're advancing the plot. This means backtracking to do Prospero, which is apparently pre Istvaan III now. It's going to be a strange leap, going from the ramping tension of the Heresy, the corruption of the Traitors and the shattering of the loyalists back to the opening stages, before the Warmaster had raised his banner in open rebellion.

True. But you just can't start the Heresy, without the Betrayal. It'd be like starting a Star Wars marathon at Episode I rather than IV.

Oh I'm not saying Prospero should've been Volume 1 (volume 3 would've been the perfect place imo), only that the further they get from Prospero without doing it will be increasingly grating for me, as I want me some VI Legion. To be honest, while its been years since I read the first three Heresy novels, I can't shake the feeling the Prospero happened between Istvaan III and V, although my memorey may be shoddy on this one.

[Balthamal]

  Oh yeah, you couldn't give a unit as powerful a buff as brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers for free. Levity aside I fully expect any unit with the Legion Astartes (Thousand Sons) to be able to take an option giving them Brotherhood of Sorcerors (ML1) and one roll on one of the psychic tables for a number of points, how much I imagine would need to be tested. What thier free Legiones Astartes rules would be like I'm not sure, I can definitely see something about them not being trusted by many other legions/imperial forces - something like ICs never being able to join allied units and visa versa maybe - but it's tough, psykers are a large part of the unique part of the Sons, but just giving brotherhood of sorcerers for free would most likely represent an escalation of legion power without a points cost increase, but that would also make them very different than every other legion in terms of base mechanics who do not pay anything extra for their LA rules, even ones as good as say LA (Iron Hands).  The only way to do it and make it cost-neutral would be for their 'downside' trait to also be the harshest of any legion, although I'm not sure that would work within the existing framework.

 

I presume the tutelaries will also make an appearance in some form as wargear, hopefully as an item that allows a re-roll on psychic tests and/or provides some protection against the new, harsher perils. 

 

Overall I expect the Sons to be mechanically the most divergent legion, it's just a question of how far, something like that needs a lot of thought and testing. I'm bummed that it's been delayed, but I understand the reasons. Thousand Sons have never been very good/cost effective in 40k because their abilities are very overpriced on one wound models in squads. I'd much rather wait a year and have something flavourful, enjoyable and balanced against other 30k forces.

 

Stating Magnus is going to be equally difficult, if they're going to keep Horus as the most expensive Primarch there's going to be real problems accurately balancing Magnus' psychic abilities between it's backround level and the game mechanics. To match the background he would pretty much have to be mastery level 5, with some ability to choose his powers a la ascended Lorgar. He's no slouch in combat either in A Thousand Sons, no Russ, Horus or Angron by any means, but he has always been represented as more capable in combat than say Lorgar. Of course how much of this is inherent talent compared to psychic enhancement is up for debate. I would fully expect Magnus to run at 495 points with WS/BS 6, S/T/W/I 6, 4A, 3+Armour, 3+Inv, some sort of two-handed AP2 Axe that doesn't do much else and some sort of special rule for shooting things with eye-lasers...

 

Without wanting to seem like a kill joy, I'd brace yourself to get a fraction, if that, of everything you've suggested thus far. If the 12 Legions covered so far have taught us anything it's that some of the gimmicks that are around in 40k, to use your example of a seer council (Imo the biggest piece of :cuss to ever see the light of day), won't ever have a counterpart in the HH. Whilst some of the RoW, units, wargear etc etc etc are inherently better than others, the main thing that's put in place is balance, it's almost FW's motto these days.

 

I'd expect the Scarab Occult to get hold of BoS for one discipline or another since A Thousand Sons explicitly states that membership of the fellowship was only granted to marines of a certain degree of psychic mastery but their points cost will be eye watering to compensate.

 

I'd also expect the Praetor's to have the Magister Templi designation in much the same way Iron Warriors have Warsmiths. But again the increase in points for the ML will be high indeed. I personally think it would be cool to be able to theme a list around one of the cults but given the cults weren't drawn on military lines it's unlikely.

 

Thinking about all that, easy to see why they put Prospero on the back burner to put serious work into beforehand. Even running all the possible pros and cons through my head makes my head hurt

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

It'll be interesting to see how they handle the Sons relating to the existing Legion rules framework they've set out in existing books, as in: universal TS rule(s), Praetor upgrade, additional Consul choice & unique upgrades for Characters.

 

I suspect the 2 units will be The Scarab Occult & a psyker unit they can use to represent the cults - as in, you select a cult for each unit as an 'upgrade' much like the Icarian / Destructor / Empyrite selections for the Thallax.

 

There will probably be a Praetor upgrade that alters them into a psychic beast, and maybe a new Consul choice to represent the differences between 'normal' Librarians & TS Sorcerors.

 

In terms of making psykers more prevalent throughout the army, a relatively simple way of doing it would be to allow every Character model to upgrade to a mastery level 1 psyker for a certain cost - so each unit could be led by a basic psyker (though this would be pretty pricy). Although this could be a bit OP, the simple addition of a Special Rule to 'hobble' these lesser Psykers could balance it out a bit.

 

In terms of the universal rule(s) to apply to all TS models, perhaps units generating additional warp charges after passing a certain roll / making it easier for psykers within a certain radius (including the squad leader) to cast powers / gaining a bonus to deny the witch rolls. Maybe in addition to some kind of Morale modifier to represent the enumerations? Obviously this would have to be balanced by a (series of?) drawback(s) - an obvious one would be a negative effect on allied units to represent distrust in psykers.   

[depthcharge12]

Even playing against Athrawes 2nd legion all with the squads having brotherhood of psykers and prescience, it's not that overpowered.

 

 

The new psychic mechanic is way more tricky to pull things off.

 

 

 

I'd suggest all squads have brotherhood of psykers rule and may take the primaris power of any discipline. However because of the small numbers of the legion, squad sizes may never be taken over 10 marines.

[Nehekhare]

 

balance

 

psychic mastery

 

points cost will be eye watering to compensate.

 

from what I've seen so far, psi levels in 7th should cost negative points - more often than not, you just help your enemy kill your characters faster while the actual benefits rarely even manifest at all.

[Balthamal]

I disagree there, from my experience of playing 7th thus far, even against less psyker-optimised lists there hasn't been any crazy pyrotechnics and the majority of powers go off without issue

[Leif Bearclaw]

However because of the small numbers of the legion, squad sizes may never be taken over 10 marines.

If they didn't do that with the RG, who are actually the smallest Legion, they are unlikely to do it for the Sons.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

However because of the small numbers of the legion, squad sizes may never be taken over 10 marines.

If they didn't do that with the RG, who are actually the smallest Legion, they are unlikely to do it for the Sons.

Yep. Remember, A Thousand Sons was written before they gave the Legions a further increase and then cemented who stood where with the Ultramarines being the confirmed largest and the Raven Guard being the confirmed smallest.

[depthcharge12]

 

However because of the small numbers of the legion, squad sizes may never be taken over 10 marines.

 

If they didn't do that with the RG, who are actually the smallest Legion, they are unlikely to do it for the Sons.

 

I was under the impression that the sons were the smallest

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

However because of the small numbers of the legion, squad sizes may never be taken over 10 marines.

 

If they didn't do that with the RG, who are actually the smallest Legion, they are unlikely to do it for the Sons.

I was under the impression that the sons were the smallest

That was pre-Massacre.

 

In A Thousand Sons, the Sons only numbered 10,000. This wa back when everyone was working with the Horus Rising standard of increments of 10,000 in a Legion. Since then, with the average Legion floating around 100,000, the numbers have been retconned into being even larger.

 

And with Massacre explecitly saying the Raven Guar were the smallest Legion at 89,000(IIRC), then eventually the Sons are going to be retconned as having even more numbers.

[Conn Eremon]

It was actually 80-81,000. But it makes note that the Terran nomad-predation fleets are not counted, and all we know is that it was a "small number." Considering one was led by the former Legion commander, who knows how small it really was.

[Grimtalos]

I am waiting for Quad Mortars for the Rapier. 

Also hoping we get some Command models for the legions which dont have them.

Some bundles like the Iron Hands one would be nice for World Eaters, need a discount on all those Chain Axes. 

 

Anybody know if the Iron Hand's Tactical Squad was a one off or if other legions will see one at some time. 

[Zeratil]

Oh yeah, you couldn't give a unit as powerful a buff as brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers for free. Levity aside I fully expect any unit with the Legion Astartes (Thousand Sons) to be able to take an option giving them Brotherhood of Sorcerors (ML1) and one roll on one of the psychic tables for a number of points, how much I imagine would need to be tested. What thier free Legiones Astartes rules would be like I'm not sure, I can definitely see something about them not being trusted by many other legions/imperial forces - something like ICs never being able to join allied units and visa versa maybe - but it's tough, psykers are a large part of the unique part of the Sons, but just giving brotherhood of sorcerers for free would most likely represent an escalation of legion power without a points cost increase, but that would also make them very different than every other legion in terms of base mechanics who do not pay anything extra for their LA rules, even ones as good as say LA (Iron Hands). The only way to do it and make it cost-neutral would be for their 'downside' trait to also be the harshest of any legion, although I'm not sure that would work within the existing framework.

I presume the tutelaries will also make an appearance in some form as wargear, hopefully as an item that allows a re-roll on psychic tests and/or provides some protection against the new, harsher perils.

Overall I expect the Sons to be mechanically the most divergent legion, it's just a question of how far, something like that needs a lot of thought and testing. I'm bummed that it's been delayed, but I understand the reasons. Thousand Sons have never been very good/cost effective in 40k because their abilities are very overpriced on one wound models in squads. I'd much rather wait a year and have something flavourful, enjoyable and balanced against other 30k forces.

Stating Magnus is going to be equally difficult, if they're going to keep Horus as the most expensive Primarch there's going to be real problems accurately balancing Magnus' psychic abilities between it's backround level and the game mechanics. To match the background he would pretty much have to be mastery level 5, with some ability to choose his powers a la ascended Lorgar. He's no slouch in combat either in A Thousand Sons, no Russ, Horus or Angron by any means, but he has always been represented as more capable in combat than say Lorgar. Of course how much of this is inherent talent compared to psychic enhancement is up for debate. I would fully expect Magnus to run at 495 points with WS/BS 6, S/T/W/I 6, 4A, 3+Armour, 3+Inv, some sort of two-handed AP2 Axe that doesn't do much else and some sort of special rule for shooting things with eye-lasers...

Without wanting to seem like a kill joy, I'd brace yourself to get a fraction, if that, of everything you've suggested thus far. If the 12 Legions covered so far have taught us anything it's that some of the gimmicks that are around in 40k, to use your example of a seer council (Imo the biggest piece of to ever see the light of day), won't ever have a counterpart in the HH. Whilst some of the RoW, units, wargear etc etc etc are inherently better than others, the main thing that's put in place is balance, it's almost FW's motto these days.

I'd expect the Scarab Occult to get hold of BoS for one discipline or another since A Thousand Sons explicitly states that membership of the fellowship was only granted to marines of a certain degree of psychic mastery but their points cost will be eye watering to compensate.

I'd also expect the Praetor's to have the Magister Templi designation in much the same way Iron Warriors have Warsmiths. But again the increase in points for the ML will be high indeed. I personally think it would be cool to be able to theme a list around one of the cults but given the cults weren't drawn on military lines it's unlikely.

Thinking about all that, easy to see why they put Prospero on the back burner to put serious work into beforehand. Even running all the possible pros and cons through my head makes my head hurt

You're not being a killjoy, it is going to be tough to make some rules that make the KSons 'feel' like they are described in 'A Thousand Sons' (Which is the only really substantial work on how they operated in any timeframe - not that I'm complaining cos that book is Awesome) without diverging them drastically from the existing 2-3 unique rules+a couple of character and wargear options. Personally I hope they edge on the side of making them a bit different from the legions that have been done so far rather than give us a 'watered down' version of the legion, but I'm not the one who would have to write, edit and playtest such a thing....

Part of my worry is that they will price mastery levels too high. I think 20-25 points is reasonably fair on multiple wound ICs, but not on 1 wound sergeants (a la 40k Thousand Sons) who can easily perils themselves to death with very little chance of surviving. This is less of an issue with Brotherhood of Sorcs of course, but while I like the new psychic editions it has nerfed the 'average' traditionally highly psychic army like Grey Knights or Seer Council (of course the advent of things like Coteaz + Psyker squads or the daemon factory show the system is open to a WAAC attitude, but that was going to be par for the course). I get the gripe about Seer Council, and previous to this edition I would have agreed, but the new psychic phase nerfs it a lot and I feel it would be the best way to get across the fluff of the Sehkmet in game mechanics. Obviously a mechanic that would need testing in the 30k environment though.

I would agree they're unlikely to reduce maximum squad sizes for one Legion, numbers on specific legion are almost always given from a character or chapter's point of view, so are quite possibly inaccurate, but the idea that Raven Guard and the Thousand Sons are traditionally two of the smallest legions seems consistent. Given the high casualty and recruitment rates in the Legions (and that Sons seems to have varied the most, going from around a 1000 to legion strength, back to around a 1000 and then back again to legion strength before going back to around a 1000) it probably depends on which exact moment you counted who would be smaller. Total legion size aside I feel that total legion size isn't well represented by maximum squad size, and I believe the designers have stated that one of the reasons for the larger squad sizes is to represent the kind of war all the astartes were fighting at the time, involving many times the number of marines a 40k chapter or warband would be able to field. My impression is that smaller legions tended to have less expeditionary fleets rather than smaller contingents within fleets.

[Sevatar]

Unlikely though it is, I would like some hard core Iron Hands, say the cybernetic, veteran equivalents to the Gal Vorbak and Firedrakes. As is, Gorgons are ....meh. I would br happy with just rules. 

[Fire Golem]

I'm actually really looking forward to the Thousand Sons, and the Space Wolves to a degree. They were both legions I cared very little for until I read A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, but I found them both to be incredibly interesting after those books. Ultramarines are another one, can't stand post heresy Ultramarines, but the way they're portrayed in Know No Fear, I really like them, and Guilleman, in the 31st Millenium.