Corbulo or a Chaplain?

[Jolemai]

You have a unit of Death Company in your preferred choice of delivery. For argument's sake, let us say there are no jump packs involved. Which force multiplier do you take?

 

Corbulo

• Five points more than then Chaplain
• Shares an Elites' slot with other Priests
• 2+ FNP to tank small arms' fire
• STR 5 Rending Chainsword
• Far Seeing Eye and grants FNP & Furious Charge to anything else BA within 6"

Chaplain

• Five points less than Corbulo
• Takes up an Elites' slot
• 4++
• STR User +2, AP4, Concussive weapon, other options available
• Reroll failed rolls to hit and wound for the DC

Alternatively, what would you take instead?

[tsijben]

Chaplain, because they already have FC and FNP and with hidden fists I don't really need a rending character that will get challenged.

 

I would still take Corbulo but put him in another squad ;)

[Shaezus]

Corbulo.

 

The way my DC are tooled up, if they are assaulting out of a raider a chaplain may do more harm than good; I want them to be locked in cc in the oppo's turn, not to score so many hits and wounds that they wipe out the enemy in one round and are left exposed to concentrated firepower next turn.

 

Besides, I never go anywhere without corbulo anyway :p

[knife&fork]

 

The way my DC are tooled up, if they are assaulting out of a raider a chaplain may do more harm than good; I want them to be locked in cc in the oppo's turn, not to score so many hits and wounds that they wipe  

 

The chaplain allows you to stack enough wounds on something to kill it almost no matter what at full strength.

When you start to take casualties you'll have an effective unit for longer with the chaplain. 

 

If you are really worried about overkill (which you shouldn't be, because unless you fight marines or fearless enemies exclusively you'll often end up sweeping them. You're not taking death company to score ties in close combat!) remember that the landraider has three exits, not just the front ramp. It's usually possible to disembark from at least two of them and position yourself in such a way that you are safe to make the charge but don't get all models in for the first turn of combat. 

 

40k isn't like fantasy, you can't feed a deathstar chaff in the same way outside of your own turn. Point that DC at something important you want dead and use the raider to get there.

[Chaplain Admetus]

Neither - I'd use a Reclusiarch. Takes up the HQ slot for battle-forged, is tougher to kill than the regular chappy, slightly more choppy, and doesn't eat into our crowded elites slot. Great all-around choice. Some may argue that this is splitting hairs and that he's a kind of chaplain, but the FOC shift is actually really big as the elites slot is where (at least for me) most of the good options are.

[Tabgoi]

I agree with the reclusiarch to free up elites options, I am always making compromises to get that to three.

[Jolemai]

A Reclusiarch is also 30/35 points more respectively and often, one does not have room for an additional HQ.

 

In short, I am asking because I've got Corbulo babysitting 9 Death Company Marines as they ride to battle in a Land Raider and I'm wondering if I should change it.

[Shaezus]

I also would take a reclusiarch, but don't want to sound pedantic here :p

 

@knifeandfork, the chaplain bonus is only good if you get the charge. I also find that with my DC setup, I can get the same result without a chaplain but spread over two rounds of combat, so i save 100pts and DC are also avoiding getting shot at.

 

Corbulo makes DC more effective in long run purely because his tanking = less casualties = more cc kills.

[Shaezus]

Jolemai, IMHO it depends on what role you have for DC and how long you want them to last. Sometimes I use them as a key assault unit, sometimes as an un-tooled up distraction / blocking force.

[knife&fork]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

When you have invested in a landraider I think you are well past the 'distraction-DC' zone and inside the 'better get a ROI on my expensive unit' zone.

 

 

A Reclusiarch is also 30/35 points more respectively and often, one does not have room for an additional HQ.

In short, I am asking because I've got Corbulo babysitting 9 Death Company Marines as they ride to battle in a Land Raider and I'm wondering if I should change it.

 

Unless your landraider gets blown up all the time it seems like a waste to take Corbulo in this role. How much tanking can he usually do in a match?

[Chaplain Admetus]

A Reclusiarch is also 30/35 points more respectively and often, one does not have room for an additional HQ.

 

In short, I am asking because I've got Corbulo babysitting 9 Death Company Marines as they ride to battle in a Land Raider and I'm wondering if I should change it.

But that changes the ball game significantly, if you already have an HQ in place, and not something that was part of the original question. I'd honestly rather run the DC solo than add either Corbulo or a chaplain to them, to be completely honest. You're already sitting at minimum 430 points for 9 DC in a land raider. The return on those 100-odd points isn't going to be as good as spending it elsewhere, whereas with the Reclusiarch they're the points you'd have invested anyway into an HQ slot (the only other comparable alternative is a jump pack librarian/level 2 librarian on foot which both come in at 5 points cheaper than a Reclusiarch) so aren't really 'wasted'. 

[Shaezus]

I'd honestly rather run the DC solo than add either Corbulo or a chaplain to them, to be completely honest. You're already sitting at minimum 430 points for 9 DC in a land raider. The return on those 100-odd points isn't going to be as good as spending it elsewhere, whereas with the Reclusiarch they're the points you'd have invested anyway into an HQ slot (the only other comparable alternative is a jump pack librarian/level 2 librarian on foot which both come in at 5 points cheaper than a Reclusiarch) so aren't really 'wasted'.

Agree with this. Death Company are already lost; they are not intended to survive the battle so I don't put characters with mine usually.

[knife&fork]

  You're already sitting at minimum 430 points for 9 DC in a land raider. The return on those 100-odd points isn't going to be as good as spending it elsewhere, 

 

 

Sound thinking, but there's a little more to it than the numbers alone tells us.

 

Deathcompany is not a good shooting unit, relentless bolters are better than nothing, but that's not why we take them. They are also one of the only non scoring units in the game, so we don't get them for objective camping either. We want them to be in close combat, right?

 

So what does the Chaplain (or reclusiarch for extra pts) add?

 

1. You hit a lot harder on the charge. Those dual rerolls can make a world of difference. 

 

2. Effective size of the DC on the charge is at a much lower threshold. Normally I'd say that 5 DC is the minimum you need for them to still be effective in assault. That's assuming boltpistol + chainsword on all and no power weapons. With the rerolls from a chaplain 3 such DC marines will win against most units in the game (excluding assault specialists or monsters).

This is important as the battle progresses. You will take casualties with a unit like this. 

 

 

In other words, spending that extra 100 pts can mean the difference between your DC getting bogged down somewhere after the first combat and your DC running around wrecking stuff the entire game.

 

A clever opponent will be well aware of how much harder the DC hits on the charge and be more inclined to counter charge you in situations where he doesn't have a reasonable chance to wipe you in the shooting phase. This actually works to our advantage as we end up in close combat where we wanted this unit be from the start. If we win we can even gain important distance from consolidate moves.

[Red-beard]

I don't see Corbulo as really adding much to the DC squad. His buffs are redundant with the normal DC abilities, as others have already mentioned.

 

A chaplain or reclusiarch, on the other hand, will make your death company MUCH stronger. Since your DC will hit a lot harder, you can take less of them without losing much offensive power. The chaplain or reclusiarch option looks a lot cheaper if you subtract a few DC and go with six of them instead of nine.

 

Nine Death Company: 180 points

Six Death company and a Chaplain: 220 points

Re-rolling Hits and Wounds in CC: Priceless

[JamesI]

The main benefit Corbulo provides the DC is his insane ability to tank hits.  2+ FNP!

 

I would generally go with Corbulo with a  DC in a drop pod, the chaplain if in a landraider.

[Jolemai]

List in question (Yes, there is a Whirlwind there, it's just in ninja mode...)

 

I probably could rejig the list to fit in a Reclusiarch instead of Corbulo. The list is an "all comers" list and for what it's worth, it's next game will be against Eldar tomorrow. One the one hand, dropping Corbulo would mean I have no Priest on the field (almost unthinkable) but on the other hand, he's not benefiting the RAS unless he goes in one of the Razorbacks.

 

JamesI, that's actually a good rule of thumb: Corbulo for a Drop Pod (or other non-assault vehicle), Chaplain for a Land Raider.

 

knife&fork, over on the Space Wolves rumour thread you mention that Murderfang wont benefit from Furious Charge if he attacks with his Murderclaws on the charge due to them having a base strength of 7. As Corbulo's Heaven's Teeth has a base strength of 5, do you feel he would also not benefit from Furious Charge? Also, why do you think that?

[knife&fork]

 

knife&fork, over on the Space Wolves rumour thread you mention that Murderfang wont benefit from Furious Charge if he attacks with his Murderclaws on the charge due to them having a base strength of 7. As Corbulo's Heaven's Teeth has a base strength of 5, do you feel he would also not benefit from Furious Charge? Also, why do you think that?

 

That's just the way the rules work, it's not something I think.

 

You either hit with your own strength, or a modified value (like the +1 from furious charge or double from a powerfist). 

Most close combat weapons work this way.  

Or you hit on a set strength value like most shooting attacks. Corbulos sword, Muderfangs claws or Seths bloodreaver has a set strength value that replaces the models S should you wish to use the weapons profile when you attack. Increasing (or decreasing) the models strength does nothing as you aren't using it for attacking. 

[Jolemai]

Fair enough. I just wanted it written out as it's something many of us have/may have overlooked...

[knife&fork]

if you check the 'furious charge' USR in the BRB you'll notice that it specifies that a models base S is increased by one for the assault phase.

 

So unless a close combat weapon has 'User' (with or without modifiers like +1,+2 *2 or such) in its profile it cannot benefit from the increased stat. 

[Jolemai]

Suppose I could always stick to my list and put Corbulo with Mephiston. Hmmm.

[Shaezus]

In the rules for FC it says the unit's 'strength characteristic' is increased by +1.

 

Whichever way it is worded it can be argued either way. I get away with corbulo having S6 on the charge, on the basis that at that point 'the unit's' S on the charge is S5 due to heaven's teeth.

[Jolemai]

Sadly, weapon strength does not equal unit strength. Case in point, if you have to make a strength test, it would be done on the Corbulo's STR 4 and not Heaven's Teeth's STR 5 (or his Bolt Pistol's STR 4 for that matter).

[JamesI]

In the rules for FC it says the unit's 'strength characteristic' is increased by +1.

 

Whichever way it is worded it can be argued either way. I get away with corbulo having S6 on the charge, on the basis that at that point 'the unit's' S on the charge is S5 due to heaven's teeth.

This is incorrect.  Heaven's Teeth (Or Astorath's Axe) always hit at a particular strength.  FC does not help as FC changes the model's strength.  The weapon ignores the model's strength.

 

If somehow you managed to make Corbulo's strength 10, he would still hit at strength 5 with Heaven's Teeth.

[Shaezus]

How very strange.

[Sanguine Eternal]

In my past few games, I actually ran Corbs and a Reclusiarch with a fist, with 8 bolter DC with 2 fists.  It's overkill, but the unit is grossly powerful.  As said before, Corbs tanks anything Str.7 or less, and confers his FnP to the Reclusiarch.  I usually stick Corbs in front, and LoS anything Str.8+ 
It's amazing how many DC you will save, and their points add up quickly when they start to drop.

Reclusiarch is a must IMO with the re-rolls on the charge.  So if you are going to choose one or the other, I go with a Reclusiarch.  But give both a try, you probably won't be disappointed.