Barebones Codex: Space Marine Combat HQ

[minigun762]

Has anyone given (semi) serious thought to the duelist/dualist builds? (I think I can blame Captain Idaho for that name)

 

Basically, mismatched power weapons. 

 

I think at least one of them needs to be a power axe, to get a source of AP2. This leaves either the sword or maul as the other option. 

 

Sword would be reasonable if you fight a lot of MEQs but if you're willing to swing @ I1, the power axe is actually a better killer of MEQs. 

 

The Maul is a nice flexible weapon, especially in a xeno heavy meta and serves many of the same roles as the more expensive Power Fist/Thunder Hammer by providing instant-death to T3 models and wounding most infantry on a 2+. 

 

Now it won't be at Lysander-lite build but for 120 points, I see value. 

[Axagoras]

yes i have, gorgons chain th and lc :3

[knife&fork]

 

The Maul is a nice flexible weapon, especially in a xeno heavy meta and serves many of the same roles as the more expensive Power Fist/Thunder Hammer by providing instant-death to T3 models and wounding most infantry on a 2+. 

 

 

Armies that are commonly made up of lots of models with 3+ or better:

 

Blood Angels

Dark Angels

Space Wolves

Space Marines

Chaos Space Marines

Eldar

Tau

Adepta Sororitas

Grey Knights

 

Sorta inbetween:

Necrons

Nids

 

Majority 4+ or worse:

Inquisition

Astra militarum

Dark Eldar

Chaos Daemons

Orks

[minigun762]

 

 

 

The Maul is a nice flexible weapon, especially in a xeno heavy meta and serves many of the same roles as the more expensive Power Fist/Thunder Hammer by providing instant-death to T3 models and wounding most infantry on a 2+.

 

Armies that are commonly made up of lots of models with 3+ or better:

 

Blood Angels

Dark Angels

Space Wolves

Space Marines

Chaos Space Marines

Eldar

Tau

Adepta Sororitas

Grey Knights

 

Sorta inbetween:

Necrons

Nids

 

Majority 4+ or worse:

Inquisition

Astra militarum

Dark Eldar

Chaos Daemons

Orks

I guess it comes down to your local environment. If everyone is MEQ, the maul lacks value but if it's more balanced, the maul's numbers are quite good.

 

But to be honest, I think Fist & Claw builds have more synergy.

[Gideon999]

I seem to recall someone doing the mathhammer on the maul vs the sword used by a S4 model against T4 3+ models and they actually came out about the same.   Mainly due to the AP3 on the sword being mitigated by the difficulty in actually causing a wound.   The Maul causes more wounds but doesn't break the armour, ended up in about the same amount of unsaved wounds either way.

 

My money is on the maul, since it has more utility against more targets than the sword, and if I am remembering that correctly pretty much evens out against PA 3+ armies anyway.

 

Maybe someone can verify that for me with some fresh math?

[minigun762]

I seem to recall someone doing the mathhammer on the maul vs the sword used by a S4 model against T4 3+ models and they actually came out about the same. Mainly due to the AP3 on the sword being mitigated by the difficulty in actually causing a wound. The Maul causes more wounds but doesn't break the armour, ended up in about the same amount of unsaved wounds either way.

 

My money is on the maul, since it has more utility against more targets than the sword, and if I am remembering that correctly pretty much evens out against PA 3+ armies anyway.

 

Maybe someone can verify that for me with some fresh math?

Sword wins when it's MEQ vs MEQ.

 

To make this simple, I'm using 10 hits for each weapon and rounding to nearest 0.1.

 

Maul = 8.3 wounds = 2.8 unsaved wounds

 

Sword = 5 wounds = 5 unsaved wounds

[UltraTacSgt]

So I may be starting to stretch the idea of a bare bones HQ with this build, but I have been thinking of a Captain with a Bike, AA, and a melee weapon of some kind. 

 

The T5 mitigates most ID threats and you can get out for 145pts with a PW or LC and 155pts if you go PF or RB.

 

Like I said, it isn't as bare bones as a Jump Chaplain or Captain with the Primarch's Wrath and a PW, but it is a respectably simple build that I think can do some good work in mulching up basic 3+ or worse troops and infantry. Maybe toss a MB in the mix for anti-armor or MC's.

 

Anyone have experience with this type of mid-grade Captain?

[minigun762]

No reason to go with PF & RB as RB isn't a specialist weapon so no +1A

[Gideon999]

Something to think about as well is where those power weapons are going.   The mathhammer does NOT support my opinion here as was kindly worked out for me above, but I still advocate the maul over the sword, and here is why :

 

Most of the time, the model holding it is getting 3 attacks.   (sgt or vet statline, plus 1 attack for a second CCW).   When you look at it his way (or at least when *I* look at it this way, LOL!) here is what I get from that.   Lets even be generous and assume all 3 attacks actually hit the target :

 - A sword is going wound 1.5 times in 3 attacks on a T4 model, since we can't have percentages of a model dead in real play that means really 1 dead guy as no save allowed.

 - A maul however is going to wound on all 3 of those attacks (2+ to wound), and the model is going to save 2 of those wounds.   So again we have 1 dead guy.

 

This is not mathhammer, but close enough to real battlefield performance from my personal (read: totally anecdotal, hehe) experience that I still like the maul over the sword.   Mainly as I might give up 1 wound in a fight that I might have gotten with the sword, but I gain so much more :

 - Ability to wound anything, even a necron transcendent C'tan

 - Wounding most general enemies on 2+

 - Ignore armour on some models (maybe a quarter of the models in the game, but half of those the sword wouldnt be able to wound anyway so again in my personal mind it balances out)

 - Ability to instagib T3 models such as many Eldar and Guard characters.

 - Ability to damage most vehicles in close combat (essentially getting 3-4 krak grenade strength attacks per round when charging a vehicle).

 

Take it as you will, mathhammer says I am wrong here, and that is pretty strong as far as a reason to take swords.   But on the table things often go against the averages just due to random chance, and I feel the maul gives you a better position in more of those situations than the sword.

 

Cheers!

[incinerator950]

People forget paper statistics don't always translate onto the board. Greater Brass Svorpions perform better than what the stats say.

[UltraTacSgt]

No reason to go with PF & RB as RB isn't a specialist weapon so no +1A

 

 I now see how that was unclear. I meant a PF or RB. I'll edit it.

[UltraTacSgt]

I am starting to wonder if there isn't something to the idea that a two wound HQ is just not resilient enough in a higher points game (1500ish and up). I have used a TDA LIbrarian with SS and Force Axe in many games from 1000-1850, but I can attest that he very rarely accomplished anything except simply surviving. Perhaps a dead basic HQ like a JP Chaplain is only really viable as a warlord in a game under 1250pts.

[minigun762]

I am starting to wonder if there isn't something to the idea that a two wound HQ is just not resilient enough in a higher points game (1500ish and up). I have used a TDA LIbrarian with SS and Force Axe in many games from 1000-1850, but I can attest that he very rarely accomplished anything except simply surviving. Perhaps a dead basic HQ like a JP Chaplain is only really viable as a warlord in a game under 1250pts.

 

This is my belief as well. 

Assuming you're playing what I consider a "standard" game of 1500-2000, I think you want at least a 3W HQ. Most people skip all the way to the end with the 4W EW version but I still have faith in the more modest options.

 

That said, 2W HQs make great force multipliers for larger games. The simple Chaplain in a dedicated assault unit is probably the most classic example. You also have less reservations about throwing your 2W model into combat if you know they're not your warlord. 

[Gideon999]

I have seen the same problem.  2W HQ's are generally just too squishy for the job you want them to do, or at least are 100+ pts that could be spent elsewhere for something overall better.   The exception to this is the humble libby, who can be a nice force multiplier for dirt cheap but in that situation he is used more for his powers and such rather than fighting.

 

Mainly if you are sending an HQ in to kill something, its generally something scary, and for marines scary targets need something bigger to win (bike mounted for T5, EW shield, etc).

[minigun762]

I wish the pistols were better priced. They're an iconic weapon and have a nice visual appeal.

[Gideon999]

Agreed on the pistols.   I have a few sgt's modelled with power sword and plasma pistol that I never use since they are just a waste of points in the average game.   :-(

[minigun762]

Agreed on the pistols. I have a few sgt's modelled with power sword and plasma pistol that I never use since they are just a waste of points in the average game. :-(

Oddly enough I've seen a number of Plasma Pistol & Power Fist combinations. Isn't very min max but looks cool.

[knife&fork]

 

Agreed on the pistols. I have a few sgt's modelled with power sword and plasma pistol that I never use since they are just a waste of points in the average game. :-(

Oddly enough I've seen a number of Plasma Pistol & Power Fist combinations. Isn't very min max but looks cool.

 

 

I think we all have a couple of those kicking around?  Models that either came that way (looking at you, GW captains and veterans!) or a combo we just thought was cool at the time.

 

I have a scout sergeant with with camo cloak, power fist and combi plasma that I'm probably never going to use. But the model was fun to build and convert! :)

[walpurgisnacht]

I think Chaplain with meltabombs riding in a Razorback with lightly tooled command squad is decent utility HQ.

 

My current go to HQ now has to be MotF, bare bones, as a force multiplier. FOC shenanigans aside, stock Master comes with 2+; twin-link plasma and flamer; powerfist attacks. Not bad for same as naked captain.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

I think Chaplain with meltabombs riding in a Razorback with lightly tooled command squad is decent utility HQ.

 

Wait. did i miss something in the codex. chaplains can take command squads now?

 

...

silly me. i missed that in updating listing making notes.

[Stickeh]

Chaplains, librarians and captains can all take command squads.