The Council of Nikaea

[Millicant]

In terms of the story of the Horus Heresy, I don't understand the role of the Council of Nikaea.  

 

The council happens, and certain characters rally against the use of psykers, specifically Magnus and his lot.  Emperor rules, done.  Magnus breaks the edict and the wolves are sent to censure them.  Horus twists it so the wolves to go war instead.  Then immediately afterwards - EVERY single legion outright ignores the edict.  There may be a little strife leading up to breaking the edict, there may not be, depending on the Legion.  The Scars and Wolves don't even consider following it!  

 

I ask the question - What is the purpose of the Council of Nikaea - because it seems that it was a complete non-entity except for a reason to censure/destroy Magnus.  

[MakoBoy88]

Thats pretty much what it was, the Trial of Magnus.

The Irony of the Wolves being like "Ohh man..you have to stop using Dat Warp man, you're going to us all a Mischief...hmm, what, this? Oh this isn't the Warp that i use, oh no..this is Wyrd, its like awesome because i say so"

The Imperial Fists follow it quite rigorously, i read somewhere that they literally imprison of all their psychers on a moon and leave them there. Some Legions have their Libraians join the regular Ranks again, albeit in an elevated position. But most break it in dire need.

The Blood Angels dont have a Librarius, but re-unite like Transformers to bring Sanguinus back. Likewise with the World Eaters to give Angron a Brain Valium.

Some Legions, like the DG, dont have any, apart from secret squirrel ones.

I think the Council itself was a public exercise to show Magnus what a knob he was being, but the Emperors discipline of Lorgar in front of his entire Legion with only Guilliman there was quite a seperate display, but then that didnt herald an entire edict to be enacted.

 

[SteelPaladin]

Well, not every legion ignores it. The Imperial Fists have all of their librarians locked up in the Phalanx. 

 

And its hardly immediately after that they ignore it. I'm at work, so I don't have access to my books, but it is certainly several years before the edict is broken. 

[Kol Saresk]

Originally, we're talking 3rd Edition, the Council was only to stop sorcery from being used amongst the Legions. At the time, only the Sons used sorcery. That's why every now and then you might hear it called "The Trial of Magnus".

 

Then when Magnus broke the Edict to contact the Emperor, well the rest is history.

 

When we started the Heresy series, the Edict instead dictated that all psykers within the Legiones Astartes must seal their powers. Of course, Magnus didn't.

 

Obviously the Traitors listened to that very well, although Mortarion had enacted his own version of the Edict back when he took command.

 

But after the Heresy and facing the threat of daemonic incursions, the Ultramarines and Dark Angels have indeed decided "better to ask forgiveness that permission" so that they might defend themselves.

 

As seen in Unremembered Empire, the Wolves won't exactly be too happy with that arrangement, but it is the lesser of two evils.

[Canaris]

What MakoBoy said. The only Legions that ignore the edict (other than the Thousands Sons) are the Space Wolves, because, as stated, they don't consider their rune priests to be psykers, and the White Scars, because they just don't want to.

 

Also I'm not sure what the Word Bearers were doing at this point but it was probably very, very naughty.

 

Nikea was seems to be perceived as a public slap to Magnus but I doubt if the Emperor intended it to come across that way - I think he was trying to warn his sons against a very real danger. This was probably his first big failure.

[Kol Saresk]

Before the Heresy, the White Scars(Scars), Space Wolves(Pretty much any book that features them), Thousand Sons(Same as the Wolves), the Word Bearers(Battle for the Abyss), World Eaters(Betrayer), Alpha Legion(Deliverance Lost) and the Imperial Fists(Burden of Duty) all disobeyed the Edict in one form or another. Both the White Scars and Imperial Fists sequestered their Librarians out of sight, which was against the Edict as it demanded that the Librarians be revoked of their status and then filtered throughout the rank and file. The World Eaters always had their Librarians isolated from the rank and file and allowed them to continue to use their powers. THe Alpha Legion and Word Bearers both used their Librarians to conduct experiments outside the prying eyes of the Imperium, readying themselves for the coming Heresy. The Space Wolves and Thousand Sons just didn't give a crap.

 

After the Heresy, as I stated earlier, the Dark Angels and Ultramarines would later choose that they needed the Librarians now and with now communication with Terra, decided it was better to ask forgiveness than permission.

[daveNYC]

As background, the Council was performed for a couple of reasons.  One was to dial back the use of psykers in the legions and stop Magnus from delving too deep into the warp.  These are both potential sources of corruption to whatever the Emperor's plan was, so all good.  The second reason was political.  Certain legions and primarchs hated psykers and/or Magnus, so there was a certain amount of tossing Magnus under the bus in order to keep primarchs like Russ, Mortarion, and (I think) Fulgrim happy.  Remember that the testimony at the Council wasn't just 'yeah, we're kind of worried about this warp stuff, and Magnus is getting kind of freaky', there was a major dosage of 'burn the witch!' from both the Wolves and Death Guard.

 

The fact that Magnus was censured and his entire legion's modus operandi was disallowed in order to placate two future traitors and one primarch who never bothered following said edict is one more example of why the Emperor probably shouldn't have been given authority over an ant farm, much less a galaxy spanning empire.

 

The Council and Edict also run into problems in the series because in the super old(er) fluff, the edict was just against sorcery.  In A Thousand Sons, it's against any psyker power that's not either the astra telepatha or Navigators.  So in the old fluff it was really only the Sons that were shut down, while in the new fluff it's everyone.  It makes for a much more interesting and believable story, but it also means that as soon as the Heresy hits and the loyalists discover that 1) they don't know who to trust, and 2) the bad guys are packing some crazy magic mojo (with a side order of daemons), you end up with pretty much every legion either breaking the edict or having the author trying to explain why the legion they're writing about is heading into battle against such dangers with one hand tied behind their back.

[Wade Garrett]

Meh.

 

I say that if the Death Guard (one of the biggest Legions) the Emperor's Children (one of the most decorated Legions) and the Space Wolves (without a doubt, the hairiest Legion ;) ) needed to be kept happy, then tossing a tiny Legion and its pompous Primarch ("Fulgrim's Legion may quest for perfection, but I embody it!" #ThingsMagnusActuallySaid) under the bus was a small price to pay.

[Zeratil]

They way I've always seen/interpreted it is that it was partly political, partly vindictive, partly genuine and partly Just As Planned (dammit Erebus!)

 

Political: I remember the older fluff saying that a number of concerns on Terra had issues with Magnus and the Sons use of sorcery, and the librarius in general, mostly high ups in the administratum of Terra whom the emperor and Malcador were giving increasing control to. The emperor always intended it to be the Imperium of Man, not astartes or post-humans, so when they called for the matter of psykers to be investigated he had little choice if he didn't want to appear as a simple tyrant. There were also fears of Magnus' ultimate aims to train more and more human psykers which was seen as dangerous and undermined the positions, power and authority of various bodies on Terra, particuarly the Astropathic choirs and Navigator houses.

 

Vindictive: Quite a few legions had beef with Magnus, Mortarion hated psykers, Russ hated Magnus (for killing his men) and distrusted him and his legion (thus sending Wyrdmake to gather evidence) and their use of sorcery, and had seen that the flesh change had returned. Few other legions trusted the Sons, although some valued Magnus' and the librarians contributions (such as the Khan and Sanguinius).

 

Genuine: Magnus knew more of the warp and its environments than any other Primarch as the Emperor had revealed various secrets to him and forbidden him to cross certain boundaries. Magnus ignored him and explored things the Emperor had forbidden, something the Emperor suspected and made a point of in public and in private at Nikea, showing Magnus the consequences of his actions and intimating what would happen if he didn't obey. Of course the reason for this is that the Emperor was trying to keep the knowledge of the Chaos Gods and the true nature of the creatures in the warp from Magnus, knowing how such creatures could tempt with forbidden or forgotten knowledge or even destory Magnus (which the Emperor never wanted because of his plans for Magnus and his psychic abilities). The Emperor has been shown in the newer HH stuff to trust his sons entirely too much (refusing to believe in Horus' betrayal at first) and entirely too little (not preparing them for the true dangers of the galaxy by keeping them in ignorance).

 

Just as Planned: Chaos clearly had influence in manipulating events before and after Nikea with the overall goal of converting Magnus to their cause or failing that destroying both his legion and the Space Wolves, two of the most dangerous threats to their plans (albeit for very different reasons). Erebus had been working behind the scenes to manipulate many primarchs and events and I am sure part of that was encouraging Mortarion and others to stand up and call for Magnus' censure and the disbanding of the Librarius in all the legions, thus weakening one of the strongest weapons against the daemonic forces that would join Horus' campaign.

 

 

  I can't remember the exact timeline of Nikea and the Heresy, but there is a reasonable amount of time (a year or two?) between the council and outbreak of the Heresy, once the Heresy began it's clear to see why Erebus and the Chaos Gods wanted the librarians gone, they were one of, if not the most effective weapons against the daemons being summoned or sent against them. When various loyal Primarchs (with the exception of Dorn) realised this they rescinded the edict for their own legions on their own authority at various times in order to combat the daemonic treat they now faced. Somewhat of an 'oh bugger' moment I imagine when they all had time to think about what happened.

 

 

 

 

  Of course the council has always had many different interpretations depending on who's point of view you are listening to and which source you read, imo there was no one purpose to the Council, more of a conjoining of various groups aims, mostly in ignorance of each other as well as massive hubris on the part of the Emperor and Magnus that lead to a rather unfortunate result.

[Millicant]

"The Trial of Magnus" does seem like a more appropriate title.  I've heard that before, seems about right.  

 

I understand the fluff of what/why it happened.  What seems a little off is how the edict is enforced to bring Magnus to heel (pun intended) but then immediately disregarded by everybody else.  

 

(Even the Imperial Fists, for those who were doubting.  In one of the Garro audiobooks it seems clear that they are not disbanded, but sequestered and waiting for the opportune moment.)

[Komrk]

The Scars don't disobey it, the only one who even knows about what happened couldn't get to Chondax with the rest of the fleet (admittedly he then promptly ignored it when boarded)

[Zeratil]

"The Trial of Magnus" does seem like a more appropriate title.  I've heard that before, seems about right.  

 

I understand the fluff of what/why it happened.  What seems a little off is how the edict is enforced to bring Magnus to heel (pun intended) but then immediately disregarded by everybody else.  

 

(Even the Imperial Fists, for those who were doubting.  In one of the Garro audiobooks it seems clear that they are not disbanded, but sequestered and waiting for the opportune moment.)

 

  Because they disregard it due to a threat that was inconceivable to (most) of the attendees at Nikea, that being that daemons and gods were real and psykers were needed to defeat them.

[Aristander]

The fact that Magnus was censured and his entire legion's modus operandi was disallowed in order to placate two future traitors and one primarch who never bothered following said edict is one more example of why the Emperor probably shouldn't have been given authority over an ant farm, much less a galaxy spanning empire.

 

He wasn't given it, in fairness.

[Leif Bearclaw]

I say that if the Death Guard (one of the biggest Legions)

Since when?

 

Although Betrayal has a planned theoretical strength of 490,000 for the DG, they only have around 95,000 Marines when Istvaan III goes down, making them one of the smaller Legions.

 

As far as Nikaea goes, I preferred the older fluff when it was only prohibiting sorcery. It made more sense than all the Legions disbanding their Librarians, but still had that 'what's the actual difference' question for Magnus to quibble over.

[TrafficCustodes]

Personally, I found the portrayal of Nikaea in 'A Thousand Sons'... problematic. I think it probably comes down to personal preference, and, well, my low opinion of that book in general. But each player's supposedly hidden agenda seems so blatant, and one-dimensional, that I find it hard to believe everyone present didn't start yelling and throwing popcorn during the speeches. For the Emperor to put his stamp of approval on a ridiculous sham like that... it's one of my least favourite moments in the series so far.

 

Subsequent books have done a much better job of showing how it affected different Legions (that great stuff on the World Eater librarians in 'Betrayer', for example, or the "we were so close..." musings on it in 'Scars'). But I still feel a little unsatisfied by the way we've seen it on the page so far.

 

My motto recently for fluff I'm not keen on has become "wait for the Forge World books to fix it". When we get to the Prospero Forge World book, I'd love to see a much more in-depth, 'factual' discussion of the Edict/the Trial, and details on how each Legion officially followed it (and 'rumours' of how they didn't follow it). I don't want the story of it to be changed, I just want more information (and for it to be well-written and considered).

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Council of Nikea hasnt been well written in any book, but "A Thousand Sons" was pretty poor.

 

WLK

[Perrin]

Personally, I found the portrayal of Nikaea in 'A Thousand Sons'... problematic. I think it probably comes down to personal preference, and, well, my low opinion of that book in general. But each player's supposedly hidden agenda seems so blatant, and one-dimensional, that I find it hard to believe everyone present didn't start yelling and throwing popcorn during the speeches. For the Emperor to put his stamp of approval on a ridiculous sham like that... it's one of my least favourite moments in the series so far.

 

Subsequent books have done a much better job of showing how it affected different Legions (that great stuff on the World Eater librarians in 'Betrayer', for example, or the "we were so close..." musings on it in 'Scars'). But I still feel a little unsatisfied by the way we've seen it on the page so far.

 

My motto recently for fluff I'm not keen on has become "wait for the Forge World books to fix it". When we get to the Prospero Forge World book, I'd love to see a much more in-depth, 'factual' discussion of the Edict/the Trial, and details on how each Legion officially followed it (and 'rumours' of how they didn't follow it). I don't want the story of it to be changed, I just want more information (and for it to be well-written and considered).

 

To be fair the Council of Nikaea in A Thousand Sons was written from the side of Ahriman, from his perspective the haters are one-dimensional and their arguments have no merit.

 

I think the portrayal of the Council of Nikaea in Prospero Burns (as great as it was) has more problems with it; mainly how the Emperor somehow doesn't sense a daemon walking around.

 

I agree about waiting for the FW stuff though, as long as it expands deepens the fluff rather than erasing or correcting anything that has actually happened in the HH series.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

There are four groups of Legions when it comes to their reaction to the edict of Nikaea Compliance, Interpretation, Ignore, Unknown.

 

 

1,  Compliance = Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Death Guard.

 

2,  Interpretation = White Scars, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Blood Angels.

 

3,  Ignore = Night Lords, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion.

 

4,  Unknown = Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands, Sons of Horus, Salamanders. 

 

I'm sure some would like to mover some names on my list around a bit.  I bet a lot of people think the Space Wolves should be on the Ignore list.  I think they understood the Edict not alppy to them because they use Runes.  I think the Sons of Horus and the Emperors Children might have been Compliant but I'm not 100% sure.  If any one has information I'm not thinking about please point it out.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Didn't either Horus Rising or False Gods specifically state the Luna Wolves/SoH has disbanded their Librarius after nikaea? Which would make them compliant.

[TrafficCustodes]

 

Personally, I found the portrayal of Nikaea in 'A Thousand Sons'... problematic. I think it probably comes down to personal preference, and, well, my low opinion of that book in general. But each player's supposedly hidden agenda seems so blatant, and one-dimensional, that I find it hard to believe everyone present didn't start yelling and throwing popcorn during the speeches. For the Emperor to put his stamp of approval on a ridiculous sham like that... it's one of my least favourite moments in the series so far.

 

Subsequent books have done a much better job of showing how it affected different Legions (that great stuff on the World Eater librarians in 'Betrayer', for example, or the "we were so close..." musings on it in 'Scars'). But I still feel a little unsatisfied by the way we've seen it on the page so far.

 

My motto recently for fluff I'm not keen on has become "wait for the Forge World books to fix it". When we get to the Prospero Forge World book, I'd love to see a much more in-depth, 'factual' discussion of the Edict/the Trial, and details on how each Legion officially followed it (and 'rumours' of how they didn't follow it). I don't want the story of it to be changed, I just want more information (and for it to be well-written and considered).

 

To be fair the Council of Nikaea in A Thousand Sons was written from the side of Ahriman, from his perspective the haters are one-dimensional and their arguments have no merit.

 

I think the portrayal of the Council of Nikaea in Prospero Burns (as great as it was) has more problems with it; mainly how the Emperor somehow doesn't sense a daemon walking around.

 

I agree about waiting for the FW stuff though, as long as it expands deepens the fluff rather than erasing or correcting anything that has actually happened in the HH series.

 

Yeah, but that argument only works if you think it's just the prosecution who seemed very shallow. Personally, I felt that Magnus, Yeseugi and, well, Ahriman himself were also cardboard cut-outs with angry faces drawn on them. Their arguments were more reasonably presented, because Graham wants you to sympathise with Magnus and the Thousand Sons... but they still seemed very simplistic for such a complex subject.

 

As for Prospero Burns' portrayal of the Council, I can't disagree with your point at all. It's hypocritical of me, but I'm willing to forgive books I like for big-time plot lapses, whereas I'll be quite unforgiving with the same issues if I don't like the writing. If you gave me an overview of the events of PB, and an overview of the events of A Thousand Sons, and asked me "which one makes more sense?" I'd give it to ATS for sure. But I just didn't really enjoy much about that book, whereas Prospero Burns is maybe my favourite Horus Heresy novel. (And to be honest, I'd kind of forgotten that Nikaea was even touched on in PB...)

[Chaeron]

But after the Heresy and facing the threat of daemonic incursions, the Ultramarines and Dark Angels have indeed decided "better to ask forgiveness that permission" so that they might defend themselves.

 

As seen in Unremembered Empire, the Wolves won't exactly be too happy with that arrangement, but it is the lesser of two evils.

 

Absolutely, and it's mostly marked as a choice by authors that they're using it somewhat reluctantly because needs must, even if it goes against the edict.

[spu00sed]

I'm not sure if angron purposely ignored the edict. I think it is more a case that he had forgotten that he had any left in his legion

[Kol Saresk]

I'm not sure if angron purposely ignored the edict. I think it is more a case that he had forgotten that he had any left in his legion

Considering they all made the Nails in his head go "buzz", I doubt he forgot they existed. One might forget a good thing, but one will never forget pain. Or what caused it.

[Grimtalos]

 I think the Sons of Horus and the Emperors Children might have been Compliant but I'm not 100% sure.  If any one has information I'm not thinking about please point it out.

According to betrayal the Emperors Children did not have any psykers preheresy, they saw the gene as impure. 

[Kol Saresk]

Pre-Heresy, the XVI Legion was compliant. At the moment, while we have seen the introduction of Possessed in the XVI, I don't think we've seen any psykers