Axagoras Posted August 13, 2014 Share Posted August 13, 2014 So I have had a problem recently of how to win the air war (or kill a single enemy flier) with just codex marine units not including forge world. The issue I have is that while i run 2 talons with skyhammer missiles and they cant seem to kill a single necron cresent or any av 12 flier. I was wondering if people had better results using other AA methods since the only options we have in our codex are talons, ravens, hunters/stalkers. Personally I dont like trying to use a single raven as your anti flier choice and the stalkers and hunters seem too weak/infective at doing much even vs fliers. Should I juse upgun the talons to have lascannons instead of skyhammers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Las Cannons on Stormtalons were a revelation for me when I started using them. They do serious damage, and at minimum force your opponent to jink making their flyer far less effective for the following turn. Skyhammers are pointless imo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3776916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 yea ive been seeing that... do you have any other insight on anti air since ive been looking at hunters and stalkers but just do not see how its worth it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3776988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 They aren't worth it, you're still better off taking an Aegis rather than the AA tanks as being able to place cover offers a lot of tactical benefits. The Stormraven is still one of the best AA vehicles or flyers in general in the game and that's the other great option. I often debate whether a fully kitted out Raven is superior to two Stormtalons... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 well i assume you mean talons with lascannons are great aa, and yea I look at the AA tanks and they just fall so flat, like 3 stalkers seems boss on paper, having 12 tl skyfire autocannon shots. but you do nothing to av 12 and the like... And you are not alone on that, I tried to think it over, which would be better, sure the talons cost 80 points more but for those 80 more points you get 2x the guns and sure the av 12 and 3 hp is good but not worth 2x the offensive firepower Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777058 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Well, I always field the Raven with the Hurricane Bolters. If you get behind a Vendetta or Heldrake you have an additional 12 twin linked shots that glance on a 6... Also it's incredibly useful late game at clearing troops off objectives as you can quickly get into Rapid Fire range. I can't think of anything better to spend 30 points on! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 true I would always take that, but then its just 50 more points for 2x the anti air guns and strafing run give you a huge boost vs ground targets anyway. id only take the raven if you were going to stuff something in it like 5 ccw scouts or something like that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Have you ever thought about taking both the Raven and Talons? 510 points would guarantee you Air Superiority and deal massive damage to ground targets. But I agree, two Talons are the superior choice unless you plan to transport something... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 What about a Vengeance battery? A pair of Lascannon armed and you can intercept those fliers as they come on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I think youd get more mileage from talons tbh, i think when looking at downing aircraft you should assume your dealing with AV12, so youd need at least S7, anything S8/9 would be better. lascannons on talons would be ace IMO Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Vengeance batteries have 2 twin linked lascannons on each. Got to count for something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepowerofwar Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Vengeance batteries are BS 2 and are auto fire only if i remember correctly. But as for the the raven vs talon, i don't see how 2 talons can out shoot a fully loaded raven. The raven on the first turn can fire 5 weapons at full BS one of which at a second target and the rest are snap firing for a total of potential 8 separate weapons shots 4 of which are twin linked. The Talons have 2 weapons each for a total of 4 weapons. I am not saying i don't like the talon (i use one with a raven) but a raven is way stronger than 2 talons. The only advantage i see is 2 separate targets for interceptor and 4 HP but being at AV 11 makes the extra HP not much of a plus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 Vengeance batteries have 2 twin linked lascannons on each. Got to count for something? The issue with the weapon batteries for AA is that they don't prioritize flyers the same way the Redoubt does. That said, the Redoubt still averages 2+ hits per turn or 3 if you take the Magos upgrade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 But they don't intercept however. So when those fliers come on in the opponent's turn you blast them with an alpha shot ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 Vengeance batteries are BS 2 and are auto fire only if i remember correctly. But as for the the raven vs talon, i don't see how 2 talons can out shoot a fully loaded raven. The raven on the first turn can fire 5 weapons at full BS one of which at a second target and the rest are snap firing for a total of potential 8 separate weapons shots 4 of which are twin linked. The Talons have 2 weapons each for a total of 4 weapons. I am not saying i don't like the talon (i use one with a raven) but a raven is way stronger than 2 talons. The only advantage i see is 2 separate targets for interceptor and 4 HP but being at AV 11 makes the extra HP not much of a plus. And... like all flier matches whoever comes on first dies, but with 2 talons the raven can only kill 1 talon (potms 1 gun is not likely to do anything) then the other one fires back, and if the raven comes in first its eating 2x the fire power it has (besides the missiles) And to talk about vengances/ firestorms... both can take quad icarus lascannons but the vengances not being able to target fliers over closer units is a huge blow to it. I should look into getting a firestorm redoubt Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 I sometimes field 3 Stormtalons... It's a unit that really does benefit from redundancy, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted August 14, 2014 Author Share Posted August 14, 2014 yea, my main issue is i only have 250 (280 at max) to get some solid AA in a list i have, so 3 talons is out of the picture, but question on a vengeance, can each gun shoot at a different target? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 yea, my main issue is i only have 250 (280 at max) to get some solid AA in a list i have, so 3 talons is out of the picture, but question on a vengeance, can each gun shoot at a different target? If you only need AA, the Redoubt is pretty good buy, especially if you have a squad you can hide inside. As for the VWB, they're separate units so they can fire at different targets (assuming the closest target to each is different) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shandwen Posted August 14, 2014 Share Posted August 14, 2014 The AA tanks actually do rather well for their point cost, but the heavy support slots are too valuable to fill 2-3 with stalkers or hunters. If I were to play unbound I would spam heavy support stuff, but a Raven does a better job for a single slot, and TFCs are too valauble (and I love my devastator squads). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Skyhammers are pointless imo. I wouldn't say that. Disregarding the point difference, which I believe is a significant bonus to the Skyhammer, Skyhammers will kill AV10-12 faster than TLLC will. If you're worried about AV13+ or shooting MCs, the TLLC is a better choice but to be fair, I'd rather have the TML against most MCs or heavy armor thanks to 2 shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted August 15, 2014 Author Share Posted August 15, 2014 my 2 talons have yet to kill any flier... skyhammers just bounce off av 11... skyhammers just dont kill fliers or force grounded tests on FMCs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 my 2 talons have yet to kill any flier... skyhammers just bounce off av 11... skyhammers just dont kill fliers or force grounded tests on FMCs But to be fair, that's a combination of bad luck and anecdotal evidence. 1 BS4 TLLC = 0.59 Pens & 0.17 Glances for a total of 0.74 damage results 1 BS4 SHM = 0.66 Pens & 0.33 Glances for a total of 0.99 damage results Difference = The SHM is 33% better at stripping Hull Points off AV11 than a TLLC and 10% cheaper. I'm not arguing that the SHM is the best choice (my view is all three are viable) but it will average a higher damage result against AV11 than a TLLC will for less points. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3777996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted August 15, 2014 Author Share Posted August 15, 2014 has yet to do anything for me, i only roll 1-4 when rolling armor pen with them... doesnt change the fact that 2 talons, with 6 skyhammer shots have failed to kill a single enemy flier in any game I have used them in. only way i kill fliers is with a sicarin with the legacy that gives it skyceptor and tank hunter or a storm eagle roc pattern Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3778005 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepowerofwar Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 For me i wouldn't even jink my raven against the sky hammer, but the las cannon i would. Also the las has a chance to explode a vehicle. So for me the las has a greater effect on the field with causing a jink and explode chance. A small increased chance to take a HP is not much of a plus for the sky hammer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3778460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 15, 2014 Share Posted August 15, 2014 Las Cannons definitely the choice. You could take out the flamer on a Heldrake or force snap shots on other flyers even if they don't jink. And Immobilised results can lead to crashes too... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/295139-codex-space-marine-anti-air/#findComment-3778463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.