Codex space marine anti air

[minigun762]

To play devil's advocate, the TLLC has the worst average performance of the three weapon choices against AV12.

The key is how much value you place on AP2 And considering that the paired TLAC can't explode a vehicle and must rely on hull point stripping, it seems prudent to work with that strength.

 

Of course I view the Raven the exact opposite as it's loaded with high strength low AP shots. It is geared for the explode result.

[Axagoras]

i know what the mathhammer is, i have ran it many times my self, but I have such bad luck penning vehicles... I killed a emperor class titan without any chain reaction results... i stripped it down hp by hp... even my 2 shadowswords and vortex grenade rolled 1s

[thepowerofwar]

To play devil's advocate, the TLLC has the worst average performance of the three weapon choices against AV12.

The key is how much value you place on AP2 And considering that the paired TLAC can't explode a vehicle and must rely on hull point stripping, it seems prudent to work with that strength.

 

Of course I view the Raven the exact opposite as it's loaded with high strength low AP shots. It is geared for the explode result.

 

I do agree that the TLLC has the worsted average if you only look at causing HP damage, but when you look at everything else the TLLC has alot more going for it.  It gets a +1 to the pen chart that makes penning a lot stronger damage chance and a larger chance to take out the flyer.  Also the fear it causes Most players will jink against it so even if it does not damage the flyer, it will be for the most part taken out of the next turn's shooting phase.

 

As for the TLAC it can cause a crash with its shooting( every gun has a chance to auto kill a flyer if it can pen) and it actualy has the second highest chance to auto kill a flyer with the first being the TLLC.  

 

And you also need to look at flying MCs.  Odds of getting threw a 2+/3+ sv(which is the average SVs of MC) with the sky hammer's AP of a 4 won't cut it or cause for example a flying tyrant to jink either.  Where as the TLLC  would.  Its goes the same for like the aegis as well,  Most people take the quad and they struggle when a flying MC comes over a says "Hello".   

[knife&fork]

Exactly. 

If someone shoots a skyhammer at my stormraven I'm not going to jink at full HPs. TLLC and I will.

All pens are better than glances, even against ground targets. If I can just shut something down for a turn with a shaken/stunned I'd rather take that than cause two HPs from glances.

[minigun762]

 

To play devil's advocate, the TLLC has the worst average performance of the three weapon choices against AV12.

The key is how much value you place on AP2 And considering that the paired TLAC can't explode a vehicle and must rely on hull point stripping, it seems prudent to work with that strength.

 

Of course I view the Raven the exact opposite as it's loaded with high strength low AP shots. It is geared for the explode result.

 

I do agree that the TLLC has the worsted average if you only look at causing HP damage, but when you look at everything else the TLLC has alot more going for it.  It gets a +1 to the pen chart that makes penning a lot stronger damage chance and a larger chance to take out the flyer.  Also the fear it causes Most players will jink against it so even if it does not damage the flyer, it will be for the most part taken out of the next turn's shooting phase.

 

As for the TLAC it can cause a crash with its shooting( every gun has a chance to auto kill a flyer if it can pen) and it actualy has the second highest chance to auto kill a flyer with the first being the TLLC.  

 

And you also need to look at flying MCs.  Odds of getting threw a 2+/3+ sv(which is the average SVs of MC) with the sky hammer's AP of a 4 won't cut it or cause for example a flying tyrant to jink either.  Where as the TLLC  would.  Its goes the same for like the aegis as well,  Most people take the quad and they struggle when a flying MC comes over a says "Hello".   

 

 

All valid points, like I said I personally think that all three options are viable. 

It really comes down to what you're hoping your Talon will kill for you and then building it appropriately. Oddly enough, I'm starting to like the TML over the Skyhammer, mostly because of its ability to hurt MCs and provide more pure anti-infantry firepower than the Skyhammer can. 

 

For me personally, I think the Raven is a better choice for killing hard targets as the TLLC, Skyhammer and TML all fall fair behind the TL-Multi Melta when it comes to killing heavy armor and the four missiles are near perfect companion weapons. 

 

 

Exactly. 

If someone shoots a skyhammer at my stormraven I'm not going to jink at full HPs. TLLC and I will.

All pens are better than glances, even against ground targets. If I can just shut something down for a turn with a shaken/stunned I'd rather take that than cause two HPs from glances.

 

On a gut level, that makes sense because you know the Skyhammer can't pop your Raven in a single shot. But as thepowerofwar mentioned, don't buy into the fear of the TLLC either. It's a 44% to get a penetrating hit on you which translates into a 7.3% chance to get an explode result. That's less chance than losing a plasma gunner marine to an overheat. 

[ThatOneMarshal]

For hunting air rafts and fmc and mc would the missle launcher on the storm talon or the las cannon.

[knife&fork]

 

On a gut level, that makes sense because you know the Skyhammer can't pop your Raven in a single shot. But as thepowerofwar mentioned, don't buy into the fear of the TLLC either. It's a 44% to get a penetrating hit on you which translates into a 7.3% chance to get an explode result. That's less chance than losing a plasma gunner marine to an overheat. 

 

 

I'm not concerned about that explode result as much as I dislike taking a pen on a flyer in general. Weapons without a plus on the damage table are most likely to cause a shaken result, I'm willing to gamble that in this situation. Even so, 7.3% is more than 0%.

 

All rolls on the damage table are bad news for the target and high S weapons are better at causing them. 

[Azash]

I have had success glancing with the skyhammers.

 

It seems stupid to me to pay allot of points to put a TL LC on the talon when I can put on for free on the Raven. The one on the Raven also comes with PotMS and a 180 degree firing arc. It comes on a 3 HP armor 12 platform. The Raven also comes with 5 other low ap weapons giving you multiple rolls on the damage table and increasing the likelihood of an explode result.

 

I want to put as few as points into my talons as possible its armor 11 and 2 hp's. Huge world of difference here in the survivability of the two.

 

Also paying 30 pts to force another flier to jink is rather a waste. To make that LC work you have to hit, penetrate, roll a 6 on the damage chart, and hope they wiffed there jink...oh yeah those are fantastic odds (excuse me while I buy a lotto ticket).

 

Plus those 15 pts could mean I'm leaving a combi weapon and an auspix at home or a plasma gun or a multi melta. So the opportunity cost of that LC foes not justify it.

 

The only place I find myself hung up is which is better a pair for f Talons or a single Raven? That is the question I get stuck on often. It would have been nice if the Talon came with a 10 pt upgrade to a MM for the AC. If that was the case expensive hard hitting low ap talons would look a lot different.

[BassWave]

Yeah, I can attest to unlucky pen rolls. I also run dual talons with sky hammers. In fact, sometimes I wish I could get a twin linked multi melta instead. However I stick to them because they are the most versatile load out. You just have to accept that bad rolls will happen. I've had one storm talon cause more damage to a land raider than my knight did in cc. Does that mean talons are suddenly op? Of course not! It just meant that some dice were going to be severely punished...

 

As for other as options, I don't see the draw of the aegis anymore now that you can't shoot ground targets effectively. You are paying 100 points for a cover save and a gun that can be used by your opponent. Its got two things going for it, cover for a backfield unit, and interceptor. A stalker is cheaper, can't be used against you ( barring witch/Xenos shenanigans), more mobile, it functions without the need of another unit. and can fire at two different targets for situational moments of oppurtunity. Unless you are using the heavy support slot for something else, or if you absolutely need cover for a back field unit, I'd recommend the stalker.

[Kilofix]

Because everything Jinks I know I'm really not going to glance anything to death with a Quad AC or similar, even over 3 turns.

 

I do go with a Quad AC or similar just to force Jinks but if I really need to kill something then its the Tri-Las (Vendetta) or Quad-Las - and hope for a super lucky Pen. Otherwise it just won't happen.

[knife&fork]

Why invest in expensive dedicated anti air when you can take units that also function well against ground targets, can transport and score if you hover?

A couple of AA auto cannon shots are not worth a HS slot IMHO. 

[Axagoras]

if they had interceptor they would actually be a valid choice but with just skyfire they are really lackluster...

[thepowerofwar]

Yeah, I can attest to unlucky pen rolls. I also run dual talons with sky hammers. In fact, sometimes I wish I could get a twin linked multi melta instead. However I stick to them because they are the most versatile load out. You just have to accept that bad rolls will happen. I've had one storm talon cause more damage to a land raider than my knight did in cc. Does that mean talons are suddenly op? Of course not! It just meant that some dice were going to be severely punished...

 

As for other as options, I don't see the draw of the aegis anymore now that you can't shoot ground targets effectively. You are paying 100 points for a cover save and a gun that can be used by your opponent. Its got two things going for it, cover for a backfield unit, and interceptor. A stalker is cheaper, can't be used against you ( barring witch/Xenos shenanigans), more mobile, it functions without the need of another unit. and can fire at two different targets for situational moments of oppurtunity. Unless you are using the heavy support slot for something else, or if you absolutely need cover for a back field unit, I'd recommend the stalker.

 

How it the sky hammer more versatile?  Most Flying MCs will not get hurt or even bother to jink let alone the scarier AV 12 flyers that are coming out of the wood work now they barely can scratch.  I always look at what is the worst of each type of enemy i could face and plan for that so if they take a weaker choice thing are better.   So why plan for the AV 10 flyer and be screwed when they bring the AV 12 or plan for the crone and they take 2 flyrants? 

[Captain Idaho]

if they had interceptor they would actually be a valid choice but with just skyfire they are really lackluster...

I agree. I would settle for the Stalker getting 6 shots instead of 4 and the Hunter a reroll on the damage table.

 

Since these two models are pants against ground targets, that's not too ground breaking. (get it?)

[BassWave]

@powerofwar- I mean that sky hammers are jack of all trades, master none. It pairs well with the AC, it's cheap, and you can aim at almost any target and get good results. I have fought against dakka tyrants and av12 flyers before, and it has never given me a major problem in the past.

 

You talk like i expect that one skyhammer talon is good enough for AA. That is a terrible idea. In my experience I learned best way to use a sky hammer talon is by combining fire with another unit that is more specialized at the job. A raven with multimelta and las pairs well with it when I need to take down all sorts of vehicles/monsters. Like wise, I takedown infantry with an executioner predator followed up by a talon. Talons also pair well with each other for various roles. In short, sky hammer talons are cheap and effective support units.

 

I personally don't like the twin las because it specializes the unit too much for my purposes. So it's down to taste really.

 

 

As for the stalker, two extra shots is nice, but you get what you pay for. Where else in the codex can you get four skyfire autocannon shots for 75 points? Does it need support? Absolutely. But it's nowhere near as bad as you guys make it sound .

 

@knifeandfork- I agree flyers make better AA, but the op was asking about alternatives. I merely compared the quad gun that everyone seems to love so much to the stalker and gave my reasons why the tank is just as valid if not better in some play styles.

[knife&fork]

@knifeandfork- I agree flyers make better AA, but the op was asking about alternatives. I merely compared the quad gun that everyone seems to love so much to the stalker and gave my reasons why the tank is just as valid if not better in some play styles.

Fair enough, but why not go with a different fortification instead? Like the vengence las batteries, a firestorm or emplaced icarus/quadgun? Or some FW option.

 

If you're not going to take a flyer yourself then any anti that lacks 'intercept' is going to be top priority for enemy flyer alpha strikes.

[minigun762]

If my opponent wants to use his Heldrake or Storm Raven to hunt a single cheap tank, is that so bad?

[knife&fork]

Because the turn after that he'll have free reign for the rest of the game? 

 

Same reason I'd gladly spend one turn killing a few models with melta guns if that lets me run rampant with my dreads on an entire flank. 

[minigun762]

Because the turn after that he'll have free reign for the rest of the game?

 

Same reason I'd gladly spend one turn killing a few models with melta guns if that lets me run rampant with my dreads on an entire flank.

But how many turns will that flyer still be on the table before its forced to fly off?

 

It's not perfect but it does give the rest of your army a turn of safety.

[Azash]

Depends on the flier whether it fly off. A raven for example with its turrent can essentially keep making circles and shoot what ever pops up in front as a target of opportunity with the MM while using PotMS and that turreted LC to pick out targets outside the front arc.

 

Also once you whittle down the threats a bit it can go into hover and rotate any direction without moving. With the new vehicle damage table armor 12 hovering ravens are not quite as easy to take out as they used to be.

[Ishagu]

I recently ran 3 Stormtalons. They performed extremely well and made my opponent very nervous.

 

Also, psychologically you don't care if one gets shot down which is nice.

[ThatOneMarshal]

Let's say that I have only 150 points for anti air in my list. I run a black templars army with two LRC and two vindicators and a thunderfire. What would be a good choice? I play 1500 points mostly.

[BassWave]

Let's say that I have only 150 points for anti air in my list. I run a black templars army with two LRC and two vindicators and a thunderfire. What would be a good choice? I play 1500 points mostly.

Stormtalon with sky hammers is only 125. You can now buy an extra power fist!

[Tangamarine]

You can also get a mortis pattern dread with 2 twin linked lascannons, if forge world is accepted where you play

[thepowerofwar]

Storm Talon with TLLC is 140, and that's what i would bring.