The Talon Of Horus

[Tenebris]

+ legions or legion warbands of the Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion care little or nothing for Abaddon. They support him here and there, but it is usually only to their profit alone. Same can be said for the cult legions but those are almost the minority of the astartes forces in the Eye, or too fractured to have any saying in the matter.

 

But the same legions suddenly are aware of the Black Legion when Abaddon's fleets darken the skies of their worlds, giving pause to even beings like the daemon primarch or greater daemons. You can ignore the Warmaster, but you can do it only for so long. 

[Loesh]

+ legions or legion warbands of the Night Lords, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion care little or nothing for Abaddon. They support him here and there, but it is usually only to their profit alone. Same can be said for the cult legions but those are almost the minority of the astartes forces in the Eye, or too fractured to have any saying in the matter.

 

But the same legions suddenly are aware of the Black Legion when Abaddon's fleets darken the skies of their worlds, giving pause to even beings like the daemon primarch or greater daemons. You can ignore the Warmaster, but you can do it only for so long. 

 

Which i'm not disputing at all, i'm simply saying it's not a good way to handle the story.

 

Why I said it was probably better to agree to disagree, my problem isn't some misunderstanding or discrepancy in the lore, it's in knowing how the lore is written and not liking it. 

[jeremy1391]

 

I like Khayon, he doesn't seem Mary due to me.

A Mary sue wouldn't be at the mercy of the inquisition... With no eyes while crucified.

He gave himself up to them I thought?

He did under orders. And Khayon has shown cowardice sooo I'm gonna go with it wasn't "hey Khayon will you please go be the inquisitions prisoner and lose your eyes so you can tell our story?"

 

It was probably more along the lines of "go to Terra and tell the inquisition of what's coming.... Or die.." Love Abaddon.

 

A Mary sue would badass his way throughout the eye and be abaddons equal.

[Vesper]

 

 

Man, it's Chaos, not communism or parliamentarism. You don't get an equal share and you don't get to vote and endlessly talk about stuff.

 

Abaddon (and by extention the Black Legion) is the incarnation of a vision and of a strenght. Alexander the Great, Napoleon, William the Conqueror... they were will made flesh and bones. And that's the story of Abaddon. He's somewhere between Achillies and Agamemnon : a great fighter and a peerless commander leading countless warriors. And like Agamemnon (or Alexander) he has to subjugate others to get them in his army in order to finally do what matters. It feels much more interesting and compelling to me than Dark Concil 2.0.

 

 

That's great and all, but working under a leader I don't care for is about as compelling as....well actually I have no comparison, because it's not compelling at all, it makes me anti-care.

 

That the other legions have to live under the hovel of his story is more then a little irritating.

 

 

Is Diomedes less awesome because he's under Agamemnon's command and because he's not from Agamemnon's personal army ? No. Diomedes is plain awesome. He's awesomeness made man. The bestest of the badassests.

Is Achillies less awesome because he's not the guy who rules all Greece ? Hell no. He hates Agamemnon and yet he fights for him (like many Chaos Lords probably do with Abaddon). And centuries later, he's still an example.

Does Philoctetes sucks because his foot is rotten and he isn't the driving force behind the greatest event of his time ? No, he's great, because he has a role to play, a role that none other could fulfil.

 

As individuals, these guys achieve little. They need Agamemnon to bring them all together to build the greatest army there was by that time. And Agamemnon needed them all to make history.

 

It's not because the Black Legion dominates that the rest sucks. They're all great.

 

 

 

Damn, now I want a Black Legion version of Thersistes.

[Loesh]

 

 

 

Is Diomedes less awesome because he's under Agamemnon's command and because he's not from Agamemnon's personal army ? No. Diomedes is plain awesome. He's awesomeness made man. The bestest of the badassests.

Is Achillies less awesome because he's not the guy who rules all Greece ? Hell no. He hates Agamemnon and yet he fights for him (like many Chaos Lords probably do with Abaddon). And centuries later, he's still an example.

Does Philoctetes sucks because his foot is rotten and he isn't the driving force behind the greatest event of his time ? No, he's great, because he has a role to play, a role that none other could fulfil.

 

As individuals, these guys achieve little. They need Agamemnon to bring them all together to build the greatest army there was by that time. And Agamemnon needed them all to make history.

 

It's not because the Black Legion dominates that the rest sucks. They're all great.

 

 

 

Damn, now I want a Black Legion version of Thersistes.

 

 

Yes, but were all of those great characters regulated to a portrayal of impotence as a result of their commander and *his* army being so overbearingly powerful in comparison? By that measure, they would be far less badass. The rest may do cool things on their own, but it's small potatos to the big picture, and THAT is what takes away from the other legions. I can say Legions are torn until they want to be, that the Emperors Children can do big things like the shattering of Lugganath, but they will never have a comparable part in the titanic overeaching goal of breaking the imperium.

 

Again, I feel a legion who has a character trait of 'success' is not healthy to a setting.

[Vesper]

Yes, but were all of those great characters regulated to a portrayal of impotence as a result of their commander and *his* army being so overbearingly powerful in comparison? By that measure, they would be far less badass in comparison. The rest may do cool things on their own, but it's small potatos to the big picture, and THAT is what takes away from the other legions.

Well, that's absolutly the case with Agamemnon. He had the greatest army of Greece to begin with. And our beloved heroes did potatoes before the event Agamemnon summoned them for.

[Loesh]

 

Yes, but were all of those great characters regulated to a portrayal of impotence as a result of their commander and *his* army being so overbearingly powerful in comparison? By that measure, they would be far less badass in comparison. The rest may do cool things on their own, but it's small potatos to the big picture, and THAT is what takes away from the other legions.

Well, that's absolutly the case with Agamemnon. He had the greatest army of Greece to begin with. And our beloved heroes did potatoes before the event Agamemnon summoned them for.

 

 

Then to answer your question: Yes, they are.

[Vesper]

So it's all about power levels ?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Loesh]

So it's all about power levels ?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

Yep.

 

Because instead of being badasses in their own unique ways, a bar has been established, and a bar for characters and now the legions themselves to be measured by. Whether we like it or not, the Black Legion is the most successful, the one that didn't fail and the Black Legion is the one who is going to tear down the Imperium, not the others. While those characters are cool in their own ways, they simply won't ever measure up to that one guy who is going to overturn everything, it's the same exact reason why Loyalist players use the term 'spiritual liege' with no small amount of contempt, though at the very least our legions haven't been forced into venerating Abbadon rather then their own leaders and Primarchs.

 

That's just how it's been written, and probably going to *be* written, for good or for ill.

[Vesper]

Because instead of being badasses in their own unique ways, a bar has been established, and a bar for characters and now the legions themselves to be measured by.

It's not exclusive. All "Legions" are badasses in their own unique ways. And yet, some are more successful. And that kind of hierarchy shifts with time. By M.41, the Black Legion dominates. Like Agamemnon dominated the cities of Greece at the time of the war against Troy.

 

While those characters are cool in their own ways, they simply won't ever measure up to that one guy who is going to overturn everything, it's the same exact reason why Loyalist players use the term 'spiritual liege' with no small amount of contempt.

There's something different, at least to me. The Ultramarines are described as the best. Take any Chapter, guess what, the Ultramarines are better.

The Black Legion ain't the best Legion. They are just something completely different, they're their own thing. They are the most numerous, the most diverse, the most organized Chaos faction there is. So they are dominant, just like the Emperor's Children were dominant during the Legions Wars. They're not dominant because they're ontologically better, but because in 10k years they played the game of thrones in the Eye better than the other fractious Chaos factions (and because they passively sowed dissent in other factions by accepting anyone ready to swear fealty to Abaddon).

Abaddon ain't the spiritual liege of Chaos. He is the ruthless warlord that forces his will upon the others. He's a bully, a negociator, a charmer, a liar, a messiah, a hero... He is power.

Others heroes won't ever measure up to him. But many don't even want to. And even if they do, that's not going to happen anytime soon. They have other roles to play, they can shine differently, but just as bright.

[Loesh]

 

Because instead of being badasses in their own unique ways, a bar has been established, and a bar for characters and now the legions themselves to be measured by.

It's not exclusive. All "Legions" are badasses in their own unique ways. And yet, some are more successful. And that kind of hierarchy shifts with time. By M.41, the Black Legion dominates. Like Agamemnon dominated the cities of Greece at the time of the war against Troy.

 

While those characters are cool in their own ways, they simply won't ever measure up to that one guy who is going to overturn everything, it's the same exact reason why Loyalist players use the term 'spiritual liege' with no small amount of contempt.

There's something different, at least to me. The Ultramarines are described as the best. Take any Chapter, guess what, the Ultramarines are better.

The Black Legion ain't the best Legion. They are just something completely different, they're their own thing. They are the most numerous, the most diverse, the most organized Chaos faction there is. So they are dominant, just like the Emperor's Children were dominant during the Legions Wars. They're not dominant because they're ontologically better, but because in 10k years they played the game of thrones in the Eye better than the other fractious Chaos factions (and because they passively sowed dissent in other factions by accepting anyone ready to swear fealty to Abaddon).

Abaddon ain't the spiritual liege of Chaos. He is the ruthless warlord that forces his will upon the others. He's a bully, a negociator, a charmer, a liar, a messiah, a hero... He is power.

Others heroes won't ever measure up to him. But many don't even want to. And even if they do, that's not going to happen anytime soon. They have other roles to play, they can shine differently, but just as bright.

 

 

Of course that hierarchy does shift, but not when our setting does take place, that's where you get that feeling of exclusion from in the other legions. All of them are badasses in their own way, but again it *feels* greatly diminished in comparison to what the Black Legion is doing, ultimately leading to a sense of unimportance. It's not entirely logical, but it is a valid emotional reaction, if a bit knee-jerk.

 

And yeah it is something different, that's why I was quick to add 'though at the very least our legions haven't been forced into venerating Abbadon rather then their own leaders and Primarchs.' to the end there, that said I wouldn't say that the Black Legion is 'different' so much as they are a 'collection of everything' and part of this could actually be made better by clarification I feel. The general impression get from them is they have 'Everything' as in, all the toys that all the other legions have, and it's not something that's really specified on in the Black Legion supplement. Diversity is good, but it can give you the impression that the Black Legion does everything else as well as the other traitor legion can within their own groupings, and if that is the case, then they are 'better' and it would be hard to say that other players do...indeed...shine as bright.

 

*Dusts off sleeves* Though quite honestly this isn't quite the disscussion I wanted to wake up into the morning. Terms like better, dominant, lesser, equal, successful, failed,  ultimate, above, and so forth are nasty, loaded things. Though I suppose, so is Mary Sue and I shouldn't of tangled myself up in it.

[Vesper]

 

 

Because instead of being badasses in their own unique ways, a bar has been established, and a bar for characters and now the legions themselves to be measured by.

It's not exclusive. All "Legions" are badasses in their own unique ways. And yet, some are more successful. And that kind of hierarchy shifts with time. By M.41, the Black Legion dominates. Like Agamemnon dominated the cities of Greece at the time of the war against Troy.

 

While those characters are cool in their own ways, they simply won't ever measure up to that one guy who is going to overturn everything, it's the same exact reason why Loyalist players use the term 'spiritual liege' with no small amount of contempt.

There's something different, at least to me. The Ultramarines are described as the best. Take any Chapter, guess what, the Ultramarines are better.

The Black Legion ain't the best Legion. They are just something completely different, they're their own thing. They are the most numerous, the most diverse, the most organized Chaos faction there is. So they are dominant, just like the Emperor's Children were dominant during the Legions Wars. They're not dominant because they're ontologically better, but because in 10k years they played the game of thrones in the Eye better than the other fractious Chaos factions (and because they passively sowed dissent in other factions by accepting anyone ready to swear fealty to Abaddon).

Abaddon ain't the spiritual liege of Chaos. He is the ruthless warlord that forces his will upon the others. He's a bully, a negociator, a charmer, a liar, a messiah, a hero... He is power.

Others heroes won't ever measure up to him. But many don't even want to. And even if they do, that's not going to happen anytime soon. They have other roles to play, they can shine differently, but just as bright.

 

 

Of course that hierarchy does shift, but not when our setting does take place, that's where you get that feeling of exclusion from in the other legions. All of them are badasses in their own way, but again it *feels* greatly diminished in comparison to what the Black Legion is doing, ultimately leading to a sense of unimportance. It's not entirely logical, but it is a valid emotional reaction, if a bit knee-jerk.

 

And yeah it is something different, that's why I was quick to add 'though at the very least our legions haven't been forced into venerating Abbadon rather then their own leaders and Primarchs.' to the end there, that said I wouldn't say that the Black Legion is 'different' so much as they are a 'collection of everything' and part of this could actually be made better by clarification I feel. The general impression get from them is they have 'Everything' as in, all the toys that all the other legions have, and it's not something that's really specified on in the Black Legion supplement. Diversity is good, but it can give you the impression that the Black Legion does everything else as well as the other traitor legion can within their own groupings, and if that is the case, then they are 'better' and it would be hard to say that other players do...indeed...shine as bright.

 

*Dusts off sleeves* Though quite honestly this isn't quite the disscussion I wanted to wake up into the morning. Terms like better, dominant, lesser, equal, successful, failed,  ultimate, above, and so forth are nasty, loaded things. Though I suppose, so is Mary Sue and I shouldn't of tangled myself up in it.

 

Oh yeah, some words can easily set the fandom ablaze. Which is sad because they describe something very real. But that doesn't, shouldn't rime with how interesting things are. I mean, I love ratskins, even though they basically are next to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Yet they are well done, well thought, and absolutly rad.

If Legion/warband X or Y isn't dominant at time T or t, well, who cares ? Are they well done ? What do they say ? What is their place ? What are they doing from that place ? Where are they going ? Where do they come from ?

And then, all that shifts constantly. Parts of the Eye of Terror are the dominion of X warlord from Y warband. To some, Abaddon is just a distant voice. That's how big the Eye is.

Even the lowest pirate can shine just as bright as Abaddon if he's an awesome character that is interesting to follow.

[Loesh]

 

Oh yeah, some words can easily set the fandom ablaze. Which is sad because they describe something very real. But that doesn't, shouldn't rime with how interesting things are. I mean, I love ratskins, even though they basically are next to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Yet they are well done, well thought, and absolutly rad.

 

If Legion/warband X or Y isn't dominant at time T or t, well, who cares ? Are they well done ? What do they say ? What is their place ? What are they doing from that place ? Where are they going ? Where do they come from ?

And then, all that shifts constantly. Parts of the Eye of Terror are the dominion of X warlord from Y warband. To some, Abaddon is just a distant voice. That's how big the Eye is.

Even the lowest pirate can shine just as bright as Abaddon if he's an awesome character that is interesting to follow.

 

 

Quite so, which is why it's something i'm dissatisfied with...but not something i'm willing to riot for. Unlike aforementioned Ultramarine change, which I can understand why every loyalist faction(Including Ultramarine players themselves.) flipped a table over it.

[Loesh]

 

I read it, I liked it, but I am worried. I'm worried that the Black Legion might contract Ultramarine/Draigo syndrome and become the "bestest chaos marines evar" and all the other legions want to be like the black legion and so on. I'm also worried about Khayon. They way he is written so far I like but he slides dangerously close to being a Mary Sue. I hope ADB proves my worries wrong.

 

Michael Jordan was, at one point, the best basketball player in the world. The most successful, the most talented, and the most famous. Those are all facts. That doesn't mean every other basketball player wanted to be him (or even liked him), but it does mean he was the most successful, most talented, and the most famous. Acknowledging that something is more successful than its similar contemporaries doesn't make the contemporaries bad, weak, or jealous. There were still dozens of All-Star players during the years when Michael Jordan was transcendant.

 

On one hand, I'm not going to diminish the threat of the Black Legion, and Abaddon's eventual supremacy, just because some people don't like the fact that the Black Legion is so dominant. I can't change that, I can only try to give it context. And on the other hand, just because one faction is dominant, doesn't mean the other factions are useless or ineffectual. John Starks threw down on Michael Jordan and Horace Grant, making one of the coolest dunk posters of all time. 

 

 

*Runs his hands through his hair, pushes glasses up the bridge of his nose*

 

Alright, had some time to eat, drink, and remove myself from getting all worked up into a lather. I wanted to reply to this comment, but was getting too bombarded to give it real, precise, detail.

 

This is nothing I disagree with personally, I tried emphasize the feeling of impotency that being another legion fan can feel. The thing with the Black Legion is, much like the Ultramarines, they are poster boys and it can be easy to swept up into counter-culture and hate for something that's considered emblematic of you, but isn't really you. What I was trying to elaborate on was that Abaddon ascendant can often make players in other factions feel alienated, isolated, and estranged to the point where I myself can feel that way at times. I am not saying that's wrong, i'm not saying that's right either, but it is what it is.

 

I would of preferred a more even approach to the factions, but not only is that not happening, it's never been that way. Abaddons always had that characterization, love it or hate it, and it's something you either have to work within or simply ignore at your discretion. It is, however, at this point so worked into the Black Legion and their lore with the Long War that doing something with it would do extreme damage to their legion, and even if I don't particularly care for the Black Legion it doesn't mean they aren't fellow Chaos players and aren't entitled to their own story.

 

And yes this doesn't mean the other Legions aren't cool, or that they are under Abaddons thumb at all times...quite the contrary. The Pandorax campaign is a example of the Red Cosairs proving dominant, and while it had little elaboration there was the incident in Sarora where my own Legion pushed off Devram Korda despite an elixir that made him invincible. I, however also agree that the perception of the character as a failure needs to end because he is indeed the 'big bad' of Chaos if we like it or not, and giving him victories and context isn't going to demolish the identity of the other legions.

 

Phew.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Maybe I should clarify what I meant. I don't have a problem with the Black Legion being the strongest legion, in fact I think it's an essential part of their character. They are the driving force behind the Long War, the fiery zealots who whip the populace into a storm of zeal, but The Eye of Terror, in my mind shouldn't be "The Black Legion and those other guys who cheer them on." I think it the Nine Legions are like The 7 Great Houses of Westeros in Game of Thrones and the Black Legion are the Lannisters. Yes, the Lannisters are at the top but the other houses/legions still have significant influence and while the Lannisters dominate any single house when all the houses come together they have to go to the bargaining table and try to appease them.

[Visitor13]

Wow, Loesh, thank you for saving me the effort of typing up all the reservations I have about the unwelcome effects of the Black Legion's dominance (notwithstanding the fact that I greatly appreciate A-DB multi-year plan of curbstomping the Failbaddon thing).

[Loesh]

Wow, Loesh, thank you for saving me the effort of typing up all the reservations I have about the unwelcome effects of the Black Legion's dominance (notwithstanding the fact that I greatly appreciate A-DB multi-year plan of curbstomping the Failbaddon thing).

 

Of course, and I want to emphasize that poster boy factions have their place too. The Black Legion and Ultramarines provide a good 'all rounder' faction for the new players to get immersed in, until they find another Legion they enjoy or decide they really like the Black Legion and stick with it. Poster boys can, at times, offer lots of accessibility that is precious lifeblood to any business.

[Vesper]

Poster boys ? Because they used to be on boxes ? Dude, they had less fluff than basically any other Legion / Chapter, even with the Black Crusades. So that's hardly what I would define as poster boys.

[Tenebris]

But,... but there is a huge difference here to notice. The Ultramarines have been the "poster child" chapter for as long as 40k exists and they have really a massive amount of lore on them. They have a lot of characters and the HH books made them even better. As for the Black Legion, until of late (and still IMO) they are the big unknown of the chaos legions (Alpha Legion the other one) when bar some glimpses here and there, the figure of Abaddon and what little lore can be scavenged from the 3.5 book they have nothing worth of notice. 

 

Things begun to change with the Black Legion supplement but the true advent was the Talon of Horus book, the book which we discuss here. As you can see it the riddle of the Black Legion needs to be answered, its true character needs to be presented in order to validate ten and more years of chaos lore. Why are they the top dogs, who is really Abaddon and why even the daemon primarchs have to assist him, why is he the Champion of Chaos Undivided and so much more...

 

The other legions are all little special snowflakes but there is the Black Legion which drives the narrative for Chaos, this is a given and we must not forget this. So not only the Black Legion needs to grow, to really become this menace but trough it we will learn also how other legions fare. Talon of Horus was great in this aspect for ADB explained a lot about the other legions, Emperor's Children in particular. Trough the eyelenses of a future Black Legion marine we see how mighty the EC were, their near dominance in the Slave Wars, the coalition they have lead against the remnants of the Sons of Horus... this are big things, epic things. Then again we learn of a neutral Iron Warrior enclave, of regular sightings of the Fallen... did you people forget this aspects or are you all too swept in Black Legion creep and paranoia? For I have the impression that most of you just rushed across the book...

 

I tell you Black Legion is THE dominant faction in Chaos, the rest is background. In the Black Legion series we will learn how this came to be, why it came to be and what repercussions this had on the other legions. In ToH we have already seen some considerable mighty of the other legions, in the pre-novels/short stories also and this is I assume not enough for you all. Can't you simply follow the lore, understand the role of the Black Legion and try to crave your fluff around this. All legions are entitled to some glory but it stands that now it is the Black Legion who is battering the Cadian Gate and behind it all the other legions follow... yes they follow and you know why?

 

Because Abaddon united them, gained the support of the primarchs and weaved a working coalition from a mass of murderers, betrayers and traitors, madmen all. It was he who battled the champions of Khorne in the arena of Angron, it was he who traded a powerful artifact with Mortarion and it was he and his legion who procured a powerful psyker plaything to Fulgrim... it was not the Emperor's Children, it was not the Death Guard and it was not the World Eaters... it was Abaddon and HIS Black Legion. This is lore, period. It is confirmed, it is so. To deny is to deny established lore, retcons are a norm and the setting has to move on... 

 

So before someone blames the Black Legion for stealing the spot from other legions... legions who failed to accomplish anything due to being fractured or too lost in the Great Game, one should appreciate what the Black Legion is about and what this means for Chaos, all of Team Chaos. 

 

Behind the Warmaster banner there is not only the legions, but there are countless regiments of traitor guard, entire legions of daemons, Be'Lakor himself and so on... Abaddon is not just simply a warlord who plays at war he is the fulcrum of anything Chaos and his legion is the spearhead, it was shaped, forged to be so. Those who understand the Long War sided with him or donned the black, those who care not and are lost to their passions, vendettas and plots stay away form Abaddon, simple as that. He care not for those who do not follow him and those who do not follow him care not for Abaddon, the Eye is a big place and if one is not interested in the goal which is being achieved, fought for and bled for by the Black Legion... well you are free to carve your own piece of hell in the Eye, it is a free for all.

 

But lore stands, it is official, it is the Black Legion, the strongest of the chaos legions. A brotherhood for the brotherless, the crusading host of Chaos, the soldiers of the Warmasters and at the moment the mightiest of the Chaos armies out there. As I have said, only the daemon legions are bigger and only the Chaos Gods themselves can stop Abaddon now... but... but they gave him his blessing, he is the bearer of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, he is the messiah of Chaos and from lore, established lore, we know that such beings are powerful for even Be'Lakor, the first daemon prince of chaos Undivided is afraid of Abaddon, jealous of his power... consider what other greater daemons or even daemon primarchs must feel. 

 

We speak of a space marine who was exalted even before the fall to Chaos, we speak of a legion who was reforged and tempered, united behind a single will... trough his eyes, and the eyes of the Ezekarion we will see how this legend came to be but to have other legions, shattered as they are claim that they are the equal of the Black Legion... well it strikes me as someone is nor acknowledging the current and official lore on the matter. Not only the legions are shattered but even if united they cannot hope to match the Black Legion in might, daemonic patronage, artifacts and sheer numbers... 

 

Even before the rise of the Black Legion an entire coalition of warbands was needed to storm the Monument... and those Sons of Horus did not fought as an united faction and Abaddon was not there. But lore is clear enough, before the fall the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were the most aggressive and dominant legion, they were the sons of the greatest warlord in human history, second only to the Emperor, now the Black Legion is that and so much more. Not only among them they count the sons of all the legions, but at their head is the first son, perhaps even the clone-son of the Primarch who led all the traitor legions in battle... if this is not greatness and claim enough to validate their supremacy I don't know...

 

All in all... lore states the Black Legion as the dominant Chaos faction. The other legions are no more, shattered warbands who may or may not support the claims of the Warmaster of Chaos. Their days of glory are long gone, gone not because the Black Legion bested them but because they shattered, their sons scattered across the Eye and the cult legions long gone to the vices and sins of their patron gods, mere puppets for the Great Game. As I have said the title of Warmaster was open to anyone, the title for the best Chaos legion was also open to anyone. During the Slave Wars the Emperor's Children held the reins of power... form then on, the Black Legion rose and claimed its just place at the head of the Chaos hosts.

 

Anything disputing this smacks as arrogance and I have said ample times... "what if" is good and all but every publication is another snippet of lore established. Retcons happen (Black Templars, Iron Hands), retcons will happen. Talon of Horus is not a retcon though, it is simply a book which tries to explain almost twenty years of established lore, a series which tries to explain the Black Legion and Abaddon the Despoiler and why they always held dominance above all legions. It is a credit to ADB that he is trying to please all fans in equal measure (Emperor's Children in the book for example, you cannot deny this Loesh) and he is doing an admirable job in explaining us the cardinal mysteries of Chaos, namely how life looks in the Eye, what it means to be a chaos space marine.

 

So I would ask you all, Loesh in particular to read the book once again and see really if the Black Legion is that badass you think it to be... and then read all the codexes way back to the Rogue Trader era and read them well. The Black Legion was there, way way before anything particular was known about the Emperor's Children, they were a subcult and nothing more, one of the "other" legions, but never, ever THE Chaos Legion. This spot was always the Black Legion spot, it is only now, after more than 20 years of lore that we are finally learning why it is so. 

 

So read again, twice, thrice... but don't come with "what if" we have lore, established lore. Discuss that, in the case of this topic discuss the book, the Black Legion, Abaddon book... for speculations there are other places to post. 

[Loesh]

Poster boys ? Because they used to be on boxes ? Dude, they had less fluff than basically any other Legion / Chapter, even with the Black Crusades. So that's hardly what I would define as poster boys.

 

But it's what the Black Legion is built for Vesper, which is why the expansion in fluff now is necessary. They occupy the same spot as the Ultramarines but haven't had the lore poured into them in order to be up to par.

 

Edit: And of course I post this just as soon as Tenebris makes a gigantic post, oh dear.

[Loesh]

 

-snip-

 

*Rubs temples, sighs deeply*

 

I am not trying to impose an alternate history onto the faction, I outright stated this is how it has always been. That said, this sort of terminology when talking about other legions is exactly why other Chaos players feel threatened and see the Black Legion as a problem in Chaos identity, rather then a uniting factor.

[Tenebris]

"threatened" I don't see the Night Lords, Word Bearers and Iron Warriors (which are the majority here on the board) complaining of feeling in any way threatened by the Black Legion. Fact is that the Black Legion has this role of the greatest Chaos legion for almost twenty years by now and only now, after twenty years we are learning why it is so. ADB is not doing any retcons, nor he is playing favorites, it has been so since day one of Chaos, it will be so as long as we have a Warhammer 40k universe. 

 

Compared to the Ultramarines who indeed hold the title of poster boys the Black Legion is nowhere near the coverage granted to the XIIIth legion not it ever had any hype at all. For years, perhaps even the last ten year, one who played Black Legion was more often than not ridiculed or branded along with Abaddon as playing a "failure legion". 

 

You are worried about the Emperor's Children... well truth be told they were never that big at all, nor were they top legion. Much like other cult legion it was mostly a chaos mechanic presented in lore (Mark of Slaanesh) and it is only with the HH series that we glimpsed something more about them, until them.... well they were irrelevant though many more players played them since to play Black Legion was... a fail.

 

But lore is here, it has been here for the past twenty years. Black Legion top dogs, other legions... background, or a chaos mechanic presented in fluff. Truth be told if there is really a faction that needed some pen love was the Black Legion for until of late no one took them seriously enough. It is good to acknowledge the lore Loesh, EC will never be on par with the Black Legion in lore terms, they cannot be, they were the architects of this fate and it is only good courtesy that they were given some page time in Talon of Hours as a dire threat, but even this threat is defused by the end of the books. You cannot seriously compare a shattered legion with the might of an unified legion with a powerful master, can you?

 

The wise thing is to understand the place of things in the Chaos faction. We have the Gods above all, their legions next, following by Abaddon and his Black Legion, a distant third place is held by the Word Bearers, fourth by Iron Warriors... and the cult legions come way way after that. It is only reasonable for those in power are the unified legions and not the shattered ones.

 

I have the impression that only the Emperor's Children calling all shots and doing all the action with thousands of marines united would satisfy you but truth is that this will never come to pass and the fact stands that those marines who understand the reasons for the Long War are either Black Legion themselves or fight under the banner of the Warmaster as allies. The rest of the marines who care not for the Long War simply stay away from the Warmaster and don't try to hinder him. If your EC care for the Long War than they are above the Cadian Gate, but they follow orders, the Wamaster orders... for their beloved primarch traded their services for a little psyker plaything, this is lore and this is a fact of the current 40k timeline.

 

To rail against this is to rail against the established lore, lore which finally is giving some credit to a faction which really needed it. Know that the Emperor's Children or any other traitor legion is not on par with the Black Legion, nor mighty enough to challenge it, have your soul at peace and if you care for the Long War than obey the Warmaster orders and follow the Black Legion lead. If you care not for the Long War... well the Eye is big. The same choice is given to any warband, any legion, any daemon and any traitor commander... how they go about it, is their fluff and theirs alone.

 

Is not playing Black Legion wrong? No, in fact it accentuates the idiosyncrasies of ones own warband, fluff or narrative, but it is wrong to not acknowledge ones place in the politics of Chaos, cutthroat as they are. Is not siding with the Warmaster wrong? No, for one can care and understand for the Long War and then is a willing ally for Abaddon or care not and be his own special snowflake. What is wrong is to not acknowledge the Black Legion and Abaddon as the indisputable champions of the Long War cause (notice, not the Chaos cause).

 

Now please... just please... focus on the book instead. And please read it a few more times... I never felt all this hype in its pages, what I felt though is vindication, not just for the Black Legion but for all the legions, for all of Chaos. ADB is bringing once more love to this mistreated faction and for this I can only thank him, Black Legion or not...

 

 

PS: In fact I should be even more riled than you as a Thousand Sons fan, seeing some of the most powerful members of my legion side with the Warmaster... but you know I can only agree with ADB, what is a legion when your brothers are dust or are competitors for sorcerous power, when your Primarch is already lost to the Great Game and your cause and blood betrayed so many times that it matters no longer anything, is this really a legion, a brotherhood. In Khayon's shoes I would have done the same choice, my legion be damned, my father be damned. I see the true Thousand Sons there, wearing the black plate and fighting for what they believe in, and not what their father wanted them to believe. 

 

All in all every single thing I ever considered for my warband and fluff became only clearer with Talon of Horus. It is not the legion that is left behind on Sortiarius that are the true Thousand Sons, but the ones who dared to rebel against their fate, against their father and against their powerhungry brothers that are the true Thousand Sons... those whose mind never forgot the brotherhood now clad in dust or the true purpose of one who wields sorcerous power, of learning, experience and following ones ideals, that is what I call a true scholar legion, open minded, open to new avenues, open to a new future... to real Change.

[Loesh]

 

-snip-

 

Tenebris, I respect you a great deal, I consider you an intelligent man, and I find your passion for lore and creativity impressive and after my own heart, so when I say this I am saying it as a peer and not as someone talking down to you.

 

You are using many words to say things that I agree with, acknowledge, but am also trying to elaborate on. I am not worried about Legion identity(overmuch.) but was earlier trying to explain why people find the Black Legion threatening. Part of this are the words you are typing now, Vesper put it much more eloquently, comparing them to other great leaders rather then candles in the wind or irrelevant, and while it might seem I was admonishing him even then, I did not deny the comparison only affirming that they were indeed lesser and that is why other legion fans can feel estranged.

 

I am not slamming the Black Legion, I am elaborating on the fandom, not the lore itself. That said when you earlier brought up the Emperors Children as a way of pleasing all fans, I am not sure you understand the book yourself. They are not there as fan-service, they are there because the book is taking place in the middle of the Slave Wars and they are a large part of the overall narrative in that lore event, the book is not about the Emperors Children or any other combination of legions as well as the Black Legion, it is about the formative years of the Black Legion and what led to it's creation.

 

Furthermore, as someone who liked the book, as a scholar, as someone who likes to think of himself as a smart consumer, and an individual, the idea that I should be placated by fan-service is a slap to the face.

 

This is not my discussion tone, my condescending tone, or my humorous tone, this is my serious tone, and I hope I don't have to use it very often.

[Tenebris]

But, was it not enough to see your legion dominating, I have the feeling that it is not enough for you. In a faction where equality is equality only as playthings for the Dark Gods, a faction which is defined by ambition, character and charisma, things as "lesser" are daily occurrence, they are not there as a disservice, but they are there to explain the mechanics, politics and metaphysics of Chaos. When I say that the Emperor's Children cannot hold the candle to the Black Legion it is not a personal thing, nor a personal assault, but fact, a fact of Chaos politics, a fact in Chaos metaphysics and a fact in the official lore. At this stage it is not Lucius or Fabius the greatest Champion of Slaanesh, it is Abaddon, he is the one who is also the Champion to the other gods, but so he is too a champion of Slaanesh, THE mortal Champion in the highest standing in the hierarchy of Chaos, in this case of the Dark Prince. It is only natural that marines like Lucius can be only subservient to one who is so high in esteem with their patron god, that or try to kill him for the title and prestige. 

 

My impression is that you would settle for nothing other than complete equality of the traitor legions, a thing impossible, because it is Chaos, only the strongest deserve to prosper and live, the other either end up dead or in chains. 

 

And when I say that mentions of the other legions are there to "placate" people, despite the context, I mean it in the literal sense of appeasing the fans. A thing, which seems to have failed. The Emperor's Children were in the book for a reason, that is certain, but so were also the other factions. Yet I understand the author when he has to throw some cookies around, otherwise it can backfire on him, especially in a ferocious fan caste like the one of Warhammer. A thing not only seen in this case but across all the Black Library publications. 

 

On a side note I think that in terms of Chaos, in terms of "power" in Chaos, absolute terms are the best way to explain a thing. This is a faction where only the most ruthless, cunning, excessive, vicious and powerful can claim a shred of power or deserve a place. Much like for the Dark Eldar... this are the factions of absolutes, of absolute extremes especially. And yes there is a perfectly valid point when I say that the Black Legion by 999.M41 is the most imperative, greatest of the Chaos legions. It is an absolute, but an absolute supported by current lore, it is not a personal impression, nor just a speculation, it is fact. 

 

Even a third of the Dark Council Apostles in the Word Bearers series were sent in a daring power game when a single, a single Black Legion Sorcerer was sent to "assist" them by the Warmaster. That is how important is for everyone and everything in the Eye to play nice with the Black Legion. Another snippet of lore which well supports my use of absolutes. And here we speak of perhaps the most powerful individuals in one of the greatest legions, greater even than your Emperor's Children in numbers and prestige... even they had to understand their place and plot according to it. 

 

And so on and so forth. Imperatives... I always use imperatives, especially when most of the books allow the statement to stand. If it offended you then I apologize but this is how my post are and the words I use, I do not utter them if my claims are not supported in lore or fact. 

[Loesh]

Seeing the Emperors Children dominate is not what I read the book for, I read it for Warp Lore and a vague curiosity in the character of Khayon. It was nice to see them, but the book was not about them, the EC during and after the Slave Wars is a book i'd like to see sometime...now is not that time though. This story follows the ECs ultimate loss, not about who they are, it's hardly giving me a cookie for reading.

 

And when I say equality, I mean *vague* equality, equality born of ambigiousness, not of absolutes, that is what i'd prefer.

 

Black Legion dominant is an absolute.