The Talon Of Horus

[Phoebus]

Guys, guys, guys. Context.

 

Miller wrote/illustrated a graphic novel that was purposefully exaggerated in its style and delivery. I'm pretty sure no one reads Sin City for its accurate portrayal of the complex relationship between crime and powerful figures in America, so it frustrates me to see people who treat 300 so literally.

 

I don't know what to say about the idea that contemporary pop culture doesn't reference the Thespians, Myceneans, etc., at Thermopylae. "Contemporary pop culture" as relates to Thermopylae really just boils down to 300 and Gates of Fire. If one only read the former and assumed it was true to life, I'm at a loss. Even a simple Google of the battle would reveal that, until the final day, the battle involved thousands of Greeks from a variety of city-states/kingdoms. At that point, we shouldn't be regretting 300* so much as we should be the laziness of mainstream readers.

 

EDIT: I'm guilty as sin for continuing this off-track discussion, but a long-term defense of Thermopylae was untenable. Assuming Herodotus was truthful, Leonidas was buying time for Sparta to mobilize. Thermopylae could only be held as long as the Greek fleet off the coast could hold off the far superior Persian armada. As things played out, it's obvious that would not have lasted indefinitely. The second they were forced to flee south of the Gates, Xerxes could have landed troops beyond that pass at will. Ephialtes' goatherd pass would have been made entirely irrelevant and unnecessary.

 

* Incidentally, 300 does acknowledge/feature non-Spartan soldiery, even if it fails to feature the Thespians on the final day.

[Phoebus]

Do you guys really give a about the 6,000 other guys at the Hot Gates? Of all the things to complain about, 6,000 other Greeks being there doesnt change the fact the Spartans are the main draw of their stories. I mean, its like getting mad that Saving Private Ryan was about American Rangers at Normandy, and Band of Brothers was about American paratroopers. Who'd have enjoyed 300, Saving Private Ryan, or Band of Brothers if half the screen time was exposition about how rough the Brits and Canadians have it. How dumb would it have been for an entertainment product with Captain Winters turning to one of his men during a firefight and telling them if he thinks Bastogne is bad, he should've seen the Brits at Arnhem.

Yes, and by the same token I also would like to read more stories where Space Marines interact with Imperial Guard and PDF members of the setting, I don't see that a lot and think it'd be cool just to see how they work with(And against.) one another.

But hey, different strokes for different folks.

Check out Salvation's Reach for some of that. :)

[Emperors Immortals]

 

 

 

 

300 Spartians losing to 20,000 Persian regulars, though I suppose that's somewhat cultural.

 

The mighty being brought down by the many or by treason is a death reserved for despots and tyrants, there is no honor there, there is no nobility, it is merely an execution. To me, that is a end reserved for those who deserve no respect.

300 Spartans and the ~6,000 Other Guys That Never Are Mentioned Anywhere^TM.

Ah, but so beautifully mentioned in Gates of Fire.

Loved that book, been a long time since I heard it mentioned. But it applies to Abaddon in my little head; (quote may not be accurate);

 

"A king does not buy his warriors love with gold, not force it with fear. He earns it, with the sweat of his efforts and the hardship he endures for them. A king does not enslave men, rather by his conduct and example sets them free."

 

That's two of my fav books now, along with "The Winter King".

[Loesh]

Check out Salvation's Reach for some of that.

I'll have to, yeah.

It's something that doesn't get depicted often, people tend to just assume that because the Blood Angels and Ultramarines are celebrated in many places that the whole of the Imperium knows what a Space Marine is. When in truth, in a crumbling Empire of over 500 trillion people such a thing is an impossibility, huge swaths of the Imperial Guard may of never even seen a Space Marine in their life or heard about them. If an Inquisitor was particularly secretive, they might even mistake the Space Marines for enemies and start infighting, how the two work together to make a cohesi-

Now i'm getting even more off topic.

[Phoebus]

Let me be clear: while the Space Marines play an important part in the story, they are ultimately part of the supporting cast in Salvation's Reach. What you do get, which I thought was very cool, was their estimation of a campaign being run by the Imperial Guard (and thus how many Space Marines it merits) and of their planning and tactics. You get to see how even hardened veteran Guardsmen like the Tanith First-and-Only view the Emperor's Angels of Death. You also get to see some meaningful and realistic interaction between Space Marines and Guardsmen.

 

As an aside, while I don't think all humans should be intimately familiar with the Adeptus Astartes, I have no problem with them being aware of the institution (however inaccurate or exaggerated their view might be) in the same way that dark age Christian serfs wee aware of Biblical Angels. I don't have a problem with them knowing the names of the First Founding Chapters, just like names like Michael, Gabriel, etc., were religiously universal. A handful of great figures may be known by name, depending on the part of the Imperium we're talking about (e.g., Dante; Calgar in Ultima Segmentum; etc.)

[Loesh]

Let me be clear: while the Space Marines play an important part in the story, they are ultimately part of the supporting cast in Salvation's Reach. What you do get, which I thought was very cool, was their estimation of a campaign being run by the Imperial Guard (and thus how many Space Marines it merits) and of their planning and tactics. You get to see how even hardened veteran Guardsmen like the Tanith First-and-Only view the Emperor's Angels of Death. You also get to see some meaningful and realistic interaction between Space Marines and Guardsmen.

 

As an aside, while I don't think all humans should be intimately familiar with the Adeptus Astartes, I have no problem with them being aware of the institution (however inaccurate or exaggerated their view might be) in the same way that dark age Christian serfs wee aware of Biblical Angels. I don't have a problem with them knowing the names of the First Founding Chapters, just like names like Michael, Gabriel, etc., were religiously universal. A handful of great figures may be known by name, depending on the part of the Imperium we're talking about (e.g., Dante; Calgar in Ultima Segmentum; etc.)

 

Agreed, they might not even recognize those people are Space Marines, just really big guys that were good at kicking the :cuss out of :cuss. :p

[Phoebus]

I was going for the opposite direction; more along the lines of, "What do you mean you can't all fly?!?"

[Conn Eremon]

I want to see a super-conservative cardinal from some backwater world that was last contacted by the Imperium a millennium ago have an apoplectic attack when confronted with the fact that the God-Emperor's own immortal Angels of Death would ever be so cowardly as to wear armor.

 

I mean, what next? The Solar King himself, he who can slay the distant stars with but an errant thought, wielding a sword?

 

Whole sink-hives seek out the sleep of the virn leaf instead of living on when everything they ever believed in now only fills them with disgust.

[b1soul]

A bit off-topic but...any idea when Master of Mankind is being released? I can't wait for this book

 

How about Nightfall? 

[Phoebus]

On February of last year, A D-B mentioned on his blog that Master of Mankind was going to be his next novel (I'm assuming that he meant after The Talon of Horus).  I'm guessing the Blood Angels feature in Master somehow since, in the same blog post, he makes reference to a prequel short story involving the IX Legion.

 

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/

[Wade Garrett]

I have finally read this book. My opinions...

 

I'm iffy on Abaddon. I understand that he needs to move beyond his portrayal in the Horus Heresy series and "Soul Hunter", but the moonshining poet with the "Now, my centuries of cunning schemes have finally maneuvered all of you into position to play your roles in my master plan"....I can see how the Abaddon of Horus Rising and the one in the Night Lords trilogy are two interpretations of the same character.

 

The one in Talon has nothing in common with either of them except for being named Ezekyle Abaddon. I'm not saying that in "Black Legion" he needs to be backhanding random members of the Ezekarion into Dreadnaughthood while shouting "Bring me Sigismund or you're all next!", it's just odd to see an established character burnt to ash and rebuilt from the ground up in such a way.

 

"Drop your weapon, Captain Abaddon. We're here to steal your ship." And just like that, I am no longer iffy on Ezekyle. He can get stuffed. Lheor for Warmaster! (All jokes aside, he's my favorite character in the book.)

 

And Khayon. Oh, Khayon. I am going to read Talon at least once solely for the purpose of writing down every unique special snowflake thing he has or does, so that I may post a numbered list (possibly in all caps) the next time ADB cocks a snook at Drizzt Do'Urden. If he's going to be the Uhtred Uhtredsonesque POV character of the whole series, I'm not sure I can see myself going any farther in than Book 2 (because Black Templars!).

[Loesh]

And Khayon. Oh, Khayon. I am going to read Talon at least once solely for the purpose of writing down every unique special snowflake thing he has or does, so that I may post a numbered list (possibly in all caps) the next time ADB cocks a snook at Drizzt Do'Urden. If he's going to be the Uhtred Uhtredsonesque POV character of the whole series, I'm not sure I can see myself going any farther in than Book 2 (because Black Templars!).

 

Khayon is kind of a split issue for me, a  bit farther back you can see that I got in a bit of an argument over why he might be considered a Mary Sue. On one hand I can see it, in the idea that people may(Perhaps justly.) think his character is a Sue because how his flaws seem to enhance him and make him 'better' then others. But on the other hand I also see the view that his flaws sometimes I just flaws, and that the character can legitimately be pathetic at times. I had a long analysis once, for example, about Khayon where I pointed out that he and his 'special snowflake' Girlfriend never could and never would get together because of their very natures, something I think is how Drizzt's lovelife should have gone down.

 

Like a lot of things, I think it's largely a matter of taste.

[Wade Garrett]

He has a pet daemon so devoted to him that she'll sacrifice herself on his behalf.

 

He has a dark eldar who is so devoted to him that she'd sacrifice herself on his behalf.

 

A Rubric Marine regained sentience just so it could, you guessed it, sacrifice itself on his behalf.

 

And he has a super special psyker...Titan princeps for starships thing that allows a ship to run better with a fraction of the crew it would normally take.

 

I mean, this is all subjective, and I can't pinpoint the exact spot where Khayon crossed "The Line" for me, but cross it he did.

[Loesh]

I can agree to a lot of that Wade, where it can seem over the line. The Dark Eldar part did make me a bit iffy, I maintain that their relationship is deeper then what people give it credit for, but I hardly blame them for finding it special snowflake.

[Marshal Rohr]

How does one write about a character in a relatively unique position to become one of the lieutenants of the antichrist, then? Dude's got a special ship. So do half the :cuss is chaos novels. He's got a dark Eldar girlfriend? If this was a Graham McNeill novels he'd have been :cuss her AND she'd be his sister. If this was a Gav Thorpe novel Khayon would've had to drive his way through a labyrinth to find Abaddon and had a conversation with the Emperor during the trip. Rob Sanders? Praise be the Warmaster every two seconds. Nick Kyme? The Talon of Horus would've been made of forks.

 

Count your blessings dude. He always could've written Master of Mankind instead. But then of course, you'd be upset that the Emperor has this huge stellar empire and legions of genetically modified soldiers at his command. What a Mary Sue, right?

[Loesh]

Well that escalated quickly....

[Wade Garrett]

How does one write about a character in a relatively unique position to become one of the lieutenants of the antichrist, then? Dude's got a special ship. So do half the :cuss is chaos novels. He's got a dark Eldar girlfriend? If this was a Graham McNeill novels he'd have been :cuss her AND she'd be his sister. If this was a Gav Thorpe novel Khayon would've had to drive his way through a labyrinth to find Abaddon and had a conversation with the Emperor during the trip. Rob Sanders? Praise be the Warmaster every two seconds. Nick Kyme? The Talon of Horus would've been made of forks.

 

 

You know "Being hit in the chest with a baseball bat is better than being hit in the chest with a sledgehammer" is not really a compelling argument in favor of being hit with a baseball bat.

 

Count your blessings dude. He always could've written Master of Mankind instead. But then of course, you'd be upset that the Emperor has this huge stellar empire and legions of genetically modified soldiers at his command. What a Mary Sue, right?

No, it makes sense for the Emperor to have armies of supersoldiers and a huge empire. It made sense for Talos to have First Claw backing him up.

 

A Chaos Marine who has attained perfect loyalty from daemons and dark eldar, who has a one of a kind biomechanical macguffin that can run a Gloriana battleship all by itself? Noticeable lack of sense all the way round.

 

Now, if Master of Mankind features Treyzn the Infinite and Asdrubal Vect sincerely swearing eternal loyalty to the Emperor, then yes, He'll be just as big of a special snowflake as Khayon.

[Marshal Rohr]

More like being upset about a nice cut of Kobe beef served with mashed potatoes instead of rice.

[Loesh]

*Pokes his head out*

 

 

....I kind of like Nick Kyme.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I agree to a lesser extent with your opinion about Khayon but I disagree about Abaddon. He, more than anyone else in 40k Canon sans Draigo (who already got it) needed a change in fluff. This guy was a laughing stock before this book came out. And I don't see how it's unrealistic that he should change so much. Remember, time is relative in the warp, and he's visited every planet in the Eye (tens of thousands at least) which probably took a good couple hundred years, maybe even 1,000. So it's totally possible that he's changed a lot in that time. And he needed to. He needs to have the dynamism, he needs to have the Tzeentchian levels of Scheming, he needs to have the strategic genius of Hannibal, he needs to have the martial skill to defeat the greatest duelist in The Loyalist Legions. Because he's the damn Warmaster, and it's about damn time that GW got their **** together and started portraying him how he should be. The man who was so driven and so talented that he took a bunch of murderous, some of them even barely sentient, psychopaths/egomaniacs/religious fanatics/etc and turned them into a Legion. He wasn't given a Legion and an Empire who loved him right at the beginning, he made one for himself and frankly, showing Abaddon as just a rage filled Hulk and telling us that he did all this is ridiculous and a disservice to the character of Chaos Space Marines as a whole.

[Loesh]

I would of rather they dropped Abaddon as a character altogether to be quite frank, but I suppose one last attempt at reinventing him can't hurt...much.

[Phoebus]

Personally, I think it is Abaddon from Talon of Horus and Soul Hunter that match up, and that it is Abaddon from Horus Rising, etc., that is left as the odd man out. That last version is little more than a lieutenant, an attack dog, and an enforcer: he provides a viable balance to a quartet of personality types. He is, ultimately, the exemplar of the Forge World XVI Legion Space Marine - a ruthless Cthonian ganger who has been physically and mentally enhanced and given superb training as a warrior and a leader.

Soul Hunter Abaddon is perfectly acceptable as what Ezekyle will become after ten millennia of warring, leading, scheming, manipulating, etc. And while I don't deny that some hubris will be unavoidably gained along the way of that journey, I'd offer that many of the negative views Abaddon gets from that novel aren't so much presented as fact, but as Talos' opinion of the man. Abaddon's stance on Talos is ultimately ruthless, true; his overall stance in that scene, though, is not nearly informed by the megalomania and arrogance Talos and the 40k audience generally ascribe to the character.

Beyond that, I honestly could not care less about the Mary Sue argument. I don't so much worry about whether there is idealization or "unique snowflake" action going on as I do about whether the concepts being shown are interesting and apropos to the setting and/or aid the story.

[Emperors Immortals]

Im just sticking my neck out long enough to say this Abaddon is the first iteration ive been able to love.

 

Its early in the series, but im impressed.

[Loesh]

Im just sticking my neck out long enough to say this Abaddon is the first iteration ive been able to love.

 

Its early in the series, but im impressed.

 

Maybe not love, but I do *like* him. I have always found the character boring, but that doesn't mean that this iteration isn't his best one.

[Vesper]

Personally, I think it is Abaddon from Talon of Horus and Soul Hunter that match up, and that it is Abaddon from Horus Rising, etc., that is left as the odd man out. That last version is little more than a lieutenant, an attack dog, and an enforcer: he provides a viable balance to a quarter of personality archetypes. He is, ultimately, the archetype of the Forge World XVI Legion Space Marine - a ruthless Cthonian ganger who has been physically and mentally enhanced and given superb training as a warrior and a leader.

Soul Hunter Abaddon is perfectly acceptable as what Ezekyle will become after ten millennia of warring, leading, scheming, manipulating, etc. And while I don't deny that some hubris will be unavoidably gained along the way of that journey, I'd offer that many of the negative views Abaddon gets from that novel aren't so much presented as fact, but as Talos' opinion of the man. Abaddon's stance on Talos is ultimately ruthless, true; his overall stance in that scene, though, is not nearly informed by the megalomania and arrogance Talos and the 40k audience generally ascribe to the character.

Beyond that, I honestly could not care less about the Mary Sue argument. I don't so much worry about whether there is idealization or "unique snowflake" action going on as I do about whether the concepts being shown are interesting and apropos to the setting and/or aid the story.

I do agree.

Soul Hunter's Abaddon would've killed Talos outright when the Night Lord started behaving like a child if he was akin to his former self in Horus Rising. He was so much above everything Talos could understand in that scene that it seems more likely to me to be a development of Talon's Abaddon.