Lucien Eilam Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Yeah, that's Amon's horned helm, not Ahriman's head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The story has naturally been expanded from the morsel of info we had from years ago. Ahriman's rubric is now officially something that "went wrong" for some reason, not just a spell that worked "too well". Also he is is now loathed by many in the legion not just Magnus. Well, from what i could understand from Ahriman: Sorcerer, Khayon was one of the reasons it went wrong in the first place... Whereas Khayon describes only acting when it started going wrong. Who knows for sure? Kif, we have a conundrum. The story has naturally been expanded from the morsel of info we had from years ago. Ahriman's rubric is now officially something that "went wrong" for some reason, not just a spell that worked "too well". Also he is is now loathed by many in the legion not just Magnus. It could still be either. Or both. Maybe it went wrong because Ahriman got something wrong in the calculations. Maybe it went wrong because of outside interference like, say, Tzeentch. Maybe it worked to the letter! But... in that Monkey's Paw-est (and Chaos-est / Tzeentchiest) of ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The story has naturally been expanded from the morsel of info we had from years ago. Ahriman's rubric is now officially something that "went wrong" for some reason, not just a spell that worked "too well". Also he is is now loathed by many in the legion not just Magnus. Well, from what i could understand from Ahriman: Sorcerer, Khayon was one of the reasons it went wrong in the first place... Whereas Khayon describes only acting when it started going wrong. Who knows for sure? Kif, we have a conundrum. The story has naturally been expanded from the morsel of info we had from years ago. Ahriman's rubric is now officially something that "went wrong" for some reason, not just a spell that worked "too well". Also he is is now loathed by many in the legion not just Magnus. It could still be either. Or both. Maybe it went wrong because Ahriman got something wrong in the calculations. Maybe it went wrong because of outside interference like, say, Tzeentch. Maybe it worked to the letter! But... in that Monkey's Paw-est (and Chaos-est / Tzeentchiest) of ways. Yeah exactly. It's almost whatever you want to believe in. Personally, I'm going with Khayon and the others losing faith and trying to stop it that broke the focus and messed everything up. ;) But what we know for sure is Ahriman will stop at nothing to find out what did happen and will do anything and everything possible to reverse the effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The story has naturally been expanded from the morsel of info we had from years ago. Ahriman's rubric is now officially something that "went wrong" for some reason, not just a spell that worked "too well". Also he is is now loathed by many in the legion not just Magnus. Well, from what i could understand from Ahriman: Sorcerer, Khayon was one of the reasons it went wrong in the first place... Whereas Khayon describes only acting when it started going wrong. Who knows for sure? Kif, we have a conundrum. The story has naturally been expanded from the morsel of info we had from years ago. Ahriman's rubric is now officially something that "went wrong" for some reason, not just a spell that worked "too well". Also he is is now loathed by many in the legion not just Magnus. It could still be either. Or both. Maybe it went wrong because Ahriman got something wrong in the calculations. Maybe it went wrong because of outside interference like, say, Tzeentch. Maybe it worked to the letter! But... in that Monkey's Paw-est (and Chaos-est / Tzeentchiest) of ways. It's this one. So there. The bulls eye has been hit, and the dominoes have fallen like a house of cards. Checkmate. Still though, back to the original conundrum, it now officially didn't stop further mutations of the (surviving) Thousand Sons? Or in as 'official' a sense as anything can be in the amorphous world of fluff? Or am I mistaken that such an effect was ever part of the Rubric's story at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 I think the rubric stopped the legion from degenerating into blobs of flesh with lots of eyes and tentacles. But nothing will stop the warp from enhancing and changing someone to boost their abilities like Khayon speaks about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 The story has naturally been expanded from the morsel of info we had from years ago. Ahriman's rubric is now officially something that "went wrong" for some reason, not just a spell that worked "too well". Also he is is now loathed by many in the legion not just Magnus. Well, from what i could understand from Ahriman: Sorcerer, Khayon was one of the reasons it went wrong in the first place... Whereas Khayon describes only acting when it started going wrong. Who knows for sure? Kif, we have a conundrum. The story has naturally been expanded from the morsel of info we had from years ago. Ahriman's rubric is now officially something that "went wrong" for some reason, not just a spell that worked "too well". Also he is is now loathed by many in the legion not just Magnus. It could still be either. Or both. Maybe it went wrong because Ahriman got something wrong in the calculations. Maybe it went wrong because of outside interference like, say, Tzeentch. Maybe it worked to the letter! But... in that Monkey's Paw-est (and Chaos-est / Tzeentchiest) of ways. It's this one. So there. The bulls eye has been hit, and the dominoes have fallen like a house of cards. Checkmate. Well, yes, it is. According to the lore (and indeed to Khayon). It's not something I'd ever try to change. But you know how it is. The end result could've been through any number of reasons, blah, blah, blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Anyone one else want to see a PPV throwdown, Hell in a Cell and all that between Khayon and Ahriman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Anyone one else want to see a PPV throwdown, Hell in a Cell and all that between Khayon and Ahriman? It's called Thunderdome. Damn kids, with their video arcades, and their MTV... Also, isn't that kinda-sorta what happened at the Rubric? Well, yes, it is. According to the lore (and indeed to Khayon). It's not something I'd ever try to change. But you know how it is. The end result could've been through any number of reasons, blah, blah, blah. Probably caused by a butterfly somewhere on Cadia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well, yes, it is. According to the lore (and indeed to Khayon). It's not something I'd ever try to change. But you know how it is. The end result could've been through any number of reasons, blah, blah, blah. Probably caused by a butterfly somewhere on Cadia. In 30k butterflies have become so powerful that they have gone from causing monsoons and hurricanes, to knocking Ahrimans Rubric off kilter... Tzeentch works in mysterious ways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Well, yes, it is. According to the lore (and indeed to Khayon). It's not something I'd ever try to change. But you know how it is. The end result could've been through any number of reasons, blah, blah, blah. Probably caused by a butterfly somewhere on Cadia. In 30k butterflies have become so powerful that they have gone from causing monsoons and hurricanes, to knocking Ahrimans Rubric off kilter... Tzeentch works in mysterious ways... Should've known from the start that they're agents of Tzeentch. Metamorphosis and all that. Then again, bright colors and weird tentacle nose-mouths...hm. Butterflies under Chaos Undivided! So yeah, anyway, about the book...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Nobody ever suspects the butterfly!!!!. I always read the rubicae in that most 40k way as being too successful, and a puremanifestation of Tzeentchian blessings. What I really want to know is would Ahriman still try to reverse the rubicae if the opportunity to strengthen the legion as it was presented itself?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 According to older books, Ahriman ultimately considered the Rubric to be a success. So whether he would change it...maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Well it was a success in that it achieved the base aim of stopping the rapid degeneration of the legion. Regardless of anything else, it did work on that level. However, if he could find a way of bringing back his brothers' but keeping the stability of non-mutation then I think he would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Depends on the price, I imagine. Or he may be at the point that he doesn't even care what happens to his old Legion. Ahriman's pretty far into his own pursuits at this stage in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedekiel Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Really enjoyed it. I found the whole thing a breath of fresh air compared to other 40k novels. Don't know why, it gave me a classic fantasy/quest/storytelling vibe with all it`s unlikely allies and heroes. Would really love to see how Abbadon came to be the warrior sage he seems to be from Horus trusted warhound...this would make great story. Finally Abbadon starts becoming the heir apparent some of us thought him to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 You know i'v read this a couple times since last i'v spoken on the topic, and i'v resented Abaddon a little less and less each time....he kinda grows on ya as a character. Maybe I will read the other Black Legion books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 The aspect I have liked the most of the novel is Abaddon in his first steps as a future warrior king of the traitor legions. In this novel he is neither a full fledged chaos lord, he does not command an army of his own and he is simply a hermit who returns to play soldier. It is a crucial moment in the history of Chaos and I appreciate the humble beginnings. In the battle against the EC Abaddon neither commands a warband nor anyone of his allies. The battle is fought with the Rubic Marines of Khayon, the Berzerkers of Lheor and the Terminators of Falkus, Abaddon is merely "entrusted" with this warriors and only the Terminators have at this moment in the story a link of loyalty to him. As I have said, I love this humble beginning. Is like Abaddon around levels 1-3 in a RPG game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think Abaddon is significantly more manipulative than you are giving him credit for. His plans already included for things he was yet to ask for/take. Khayon could have chose to kill him, and I'm certain the word bearers influence is the only thing that ensured Abbies life. I hate word bearers, they're getting more Irritating every day. I enjoyed their stand alone stuff, but how for the life of me do they keep getting to exert influence on supposedly strong willed characters is beyond me. All i've got is: plot. And that doesn't sit well with me. I want at least one 30k character to at least permanently disfigure Erebus in some fashion too. Please ADB, name your price for having someone mess him up better than Khârn. Just a limb or two. Morass of scar tissue neck down and a horrific painful recovery from a plasma blast/demonic assault. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athrawes Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think Abaddon is significantly more manipulative than you are giving him credit for. His plans already included for things he was yet to ask for/take. Khayon could have chose to kill him, and I'm certain the word bearers influence is the only thing that ensured Abbies life. I hate word bearers, they're getting more Irritating every day. I enjoyed their stand alone stuff, but how for the life of me do they keep getting to exert influence on supposedly strong willed characters is beyond me. All i've got is: plot. And that doesn't sit well with me. I want at least one 30k character to at least permanently disfigure Erebus in some fashion too. Please ADB, name your price for having someone mess him up better than Khârn. Just a limb or two. Morass of scar tissue neck down and a horrific painful recovery from a plasma blast/demonic assault. Please. Well, Horus did sort of peel his face off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 As I have said, I love this humble beginning. Is like Abaddon around levels 1-3 in a RPG game. Abaddon defeated Horus Clone! Abaddon grew to Lv. 4! Abaddon learned Tackle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I think Abaddon is significantly more manipulative than you are giving him credit for. His plans already included for things he was yet to ask for/take. Khayon could have chose to kill him, and I'm certain the word bearers influence is the only thing that ensured Abbies life. I hate word bearers, they're getting more Irritating every day. I enjoyed their stand alone stuff, but how for the life of me do they keep getting to exert influence on supposedly strong willed characters is beyond me. All i've got is: plot. And that doesn't sit well with me. I want at least one 30k character to at least permanently disfigure Erebus in some fashion too. Please ADB, name your price for having someone mess him up better than Khârn. Just a limb or two. Morass of scar tissue neck down and a horrific painful recovery from a plasma blast/demonic assault. Please. The Word Bearers orchestrated the entire Horus Heresy, I don't mind them doing what they do best: Preach and manipulate. Even less so since the Word Bearers hardly came out of said conflict unscathed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebris Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I would not call it manipulative. Sure, a lot of manipulation happened in the higher tiers of command but for the average astartes warrior the Word Bearers did not just preach or scheme in the many lodges they held, the Word Bearers were revealing things which were tangible and frighteningly real. Read Vengeful Spirit. The lodge master was actually able to create a form of a "possesed" marine, the Word Bearers did show things, they were not schemers, they were teachers, occultists, diabolists and valued council. Keep in mind that the Word Bearers were considered a scholar legion, their brothers were usually the ones to speak to their more "warrior-like" cousins of the mystical aspect of existence, of truths proven in flesh of the entities beyond the veil. It is all too easy to pin on the Word Bearers the character of a schemer, and undoubtedly some were, but they also treated their brothers to the truth of Chaos (at least to the limited knowledge they had on the topic in the early days of the Heresy). They did not offer smoke, they offered the aid of sentient creatures, they returned near-dead warriors to life, they have mended limbs and saved lives with their religious practices and on a basis they did produce wondrous feats of sorcery like the Ruinstorm. The words of the Word Bearers were not just words put in willing ears, but the XVIIth legion spoke through deeds, miracles and feats which defied all logic. You can attribute to them many a scheme but it was the truth of the "word" which has led many a legionary to embrace the purpose and intent of the Heresy, not just a warlord's command or loyalty to their primarchs and brothers. It was the Word Bearers deeds that spoke more widely than any scheme, plot or lure ever could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loesh Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 As far as i'm concerned, anyone who's undivided....whether they worship Chaos as a Pantheon, or call upon individual idols in times of need....should have a little dash of Tzeentch in their soul, I don't think it's a bad thing, nor does it undermine their message to string along the unwitting and foolish, for the Chaos claims them eventually where it exalts the loyal. Depending on what source you read anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 A bit of a basic question but...what was Khayon's pre-Heresy rank? Was he a Fellowship Captain? He's never mentioned in A Thousand Sons (for an obvious reason). How does ADB fit this character into existing lore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Khayon mentions this a little in Talon, but the short version is that he was "just some guy". One of many, many officers in the Legion. After the Heresy (but before the Rubric) Khayon was marked out for Ahriman's cabal, so obviously he showed significant promise and increasing mastery of sorcery as time passed, but for the Heresy itself and the Great Crusade era, he was just another Thousand Son among many tens of thousands of others. That was extremely intentional. Often the lore focuses on characters who were big deals back then; who remain big deals for all of their lives; then hit the end of the Dark Millennium still being big deals. There's a lot of that (especially in a series about, say, Abaddon...) and while it's a good trope, it also fails to show much of the diversity among any faction. A great many movers and shakers among the Traitor Legions will have risen to power over the millennia since the Heresy, after all. Nowhere should that be more obvious than in the "newest" Legion which has thrown off the shackles of the past: the Black Legion. Everyone who's ever a big deal is always "just some girl" or "just some guy" at some point in their lives. On a mythical level (at least in one version of the legend) Robert Loxley was just some guy in the Crusades... and then became Robin Hood. And if you fancy a little bit of Godwin's Law, Hitler was just some guy in World War I... and then look who he was in that conflict's unpleasantly major sequel. It's also a significant nod to the fact that a lot of the things Khayon is good at weren't really studied in much detail by the ignorant Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons. The things he rocks at as one of the most powerful Chaos Sorcerers in the galaxy are the kind of naughty and forbidden things that sorcerers didn't get deeply into until they put "Chaos" in front of their unit entries. Another aspect to how Khayon describes himself is in terms of attending different philosophical salons, symposiums, and sorcerous disciplines... rather than just saying "I was X of the Y Fellowship". There's a couple of mentions there, reflecting that while Fellowships were a big deal (and are entrenched in readers' minds) they're also just one tier of Thousand Son culture. Prosperine society had many more levels and organisations that affected a Thousand Son's life just as much, if not more, than membership in a Fellowship. Fellowships were very important, but they were just the tip of the pyramid - no pun intended. You see a similar thing in the Ahriman series, and - at a guess - it may get a mention in Forge World's treatment of the Thousand Sons, whenever that may be. /end immensely long and unnecessary answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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