The Talon Of Horus

[Volt]

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Ok to recap, and to set clear several things. First thing first, the towing of the ship (which I don't understand why is such a problem) was achieved by a sorcerer lord, hailing from a legion of sorcerers, who was also part of the inner circle (despite the betrayal) of the greatest sorcerer of mankind (bar the Emperor, Magnus and Malcador) and who used "space magic" to achieve a feat clearly within the power limits of a natural telekine. His following performance it the battle against the Emperor's Children and the clone of Horus is still what I would call within "operational standards" for an astartes of the legions, a former captain and a warrior with centuries of experience. In short nothing all that extraordinary. On a side note he himself states that a strong mind can shape the Warp at will and not the other way around. 

 

Said that. Death to the False Emperor indeed! 

 

The Imperium at its core is based upon the lie that there are no gods bar the Emperor, the souls go to the side of the Emperor in their afterlife and the psychic gift is just a mutation instead of the veritable destiny of our species. Said that the true potential, and might, and danger, and corruption and the miracles open to mankind with the use of the Warp or due to the influence of some very real gods is denied to us by the Imperial Cult and formerly the Imperial Creed.

 

It is this opportunity to better yourself, to master your fate, to become not only immortal but also this opportunity to shape your existence, your reality and the reality of the universe with your faith, with your courage and your ambition is thus prohibited, shrouded behind a veil of lies and half-truths. 

 

The very core of the Heresy is the revelation of this truth. The truth that every person if he or she is strong enough can become an extraordinary being which can shape the very universe with a gesture or a thought. Not only that but the Thousand Sons were the advocates of an even more sinister truth, the truth that the psychic destiny of mankind could be harnessed, disciplined and allowed to flourish for the betterment of the species. 

 

Of all the legion worlds, Prospero was an utopia, it was harmony, it was tolerance, it was knowledge and learning, exploration and tradition, it was a paradise unlike any other. Prospero and the Thousand Sons themselves were the living breathing proof what heights could humanity achieve if only the species would dare to walk their preordained path, preordained by fate, preordained by, as it was later revealed, true and believable gods. 

 

By the shattering of Prospero way more was destroyed than just the glass pyramids and the vast libraries. What was shattered in truth was the manifest destiny of mankind itself, as a psychic species, as a species able to shape its destiny with knowledge, true knowledge. The Thousand Sons were the living proof that the Emperor was a liar first and foremost, they were also living a lie, enforcing dictates upon the conquered worlds, imperial dictates who were marking the Thousand Sons themselves as a sanctioned abomination.

 

Magnus has many flaws, he was flawed by the psychic mutation, he was flawed in his skin tone, his sons were flawed by the genetic instability of their father and so on. Yet even born as flawed the Thousand Sons proved to be loyal beyond doubt, to be the warriors scholars they were, they never portrayed themselves as anything else and for this reason alone they were betrayed.

 

Magnus did shatter the Webway project, he also broke the edict of Nikea but he did it with the best intentions. The treachery of Horus was learned before it would be unleashed and a sorcerer as Magnus knew full well why it came to treachery in the first place. He did what was in his power to do, he broke the rule for the salvation of the species, he broke the edict in order to deliver the message to his father. I find no guilt here, none at all. 

 

On the other hand the Thousand Sons, or truth be told, their psychic might, would be the tipping point in the oncoming war. Both sides knew that from the moment that the first acts of treachery were planned. Horus had to seal the commitment of the XV legion to his cause, the Space Wolves were a medium to achieve that. In this I only see a cunning application of diplomacy and strategy. If there is a weak link in all this is Russ, and his almost "moronic" following of orders like a whipped dog. 

 

My accusation lies not in the acts which led to the Battle of Prospero but the savagery of the Space Wolves themselves. Russ could have reined them, he could have even deigned to talk with his brother, but always eager to play the executioner, the dog obeyed once again and became a wolf no more, at least in my eyes. 

 

Since we are not here to discuss the "what if" (I hate that) the facts are contradictory at best but the Thousand Sons have many more justifications to hate the Emperor than to stay loyal. First thing first, the Emperor created them and their primarch for a purpose, psychic warfare, there is no denying that. Yet when the Thousand Sons have become the weapon the Emperor wished them to be, they were trialed and betrayed at Nikea. The proofs were ample in their favor. From their diligent and loyal persecution of the Crusade (despite some setbacks) to a clear and telling showcase of Prospero, the living proof that mankind indeed could become much more than just flesh and blood. Yet trialed they were, yet betrayed the Thousand Sons were.

 

We all know what followed but it was not the manipulation of Horus that hurt most, what hurt most, what betrayal was the greatest was the very order given by the Emperor himself to capture Magnus and his sons for their persecution of sorcery. Also it was the inherent flaw of mutation, engineered or perhaps as a side effect by the Emperor himself that plagued the legion and forced many times the hand of Magnus and his coven of XV legion lords. Betrayed not only by the liege they owed their existence but also by the very flesh the Emperor gave them, it is a wonder why the Thousand Sons were so adamantly loyal until the bitter end. Many other legions would have shattered their shackles way before them (World Eaters for example). 

 

In truth Tzeentch both proved to be the salvation and the doom of the Thousand Sons but his intervention was never of sanction, in fact, broken as it may be the Rubic did achieve its goal, the spirits of the legionnaires are still there, in their suits of armor so not everything is lost, and hope, this very vaunted ideal is the reasons why the Thousand Sons are in such a plight and their actions misunderstood. 

 

My observation is that of all the legions the Thousand Sons are the ones who have really thought things out, they are the scholars, the academics and the learned ones of the astartes legion hence their actions are always measured and pondered. When they have sided with Horus, probably several years already into the Heresy, the did so as a calculated effort, as a very measured response to what happened to them. Have they overlooked the betrayal of Horus? No, they have not, it has not escaped them nor to their primarch. But the betrayal of the Emperor hurt more and had to be avenged. 

 

If you dedicate your whole existence to the persecution of knowledge and understanding, and then you are ordered to lower yourself to the status of an ignorant for the sake of the species (and mostly political consent) yet you know that in your knowledge lies the key to the salvation of mankind... in truth I would have continued to study and practice my art. The Thousand Sons simply followed the logic conclusions and while the betrayal of Horus is strategy, the betrayal of their creator and Emperor is true betrayal, the betrayal of their flesh, their soul and their purpose. 

 

To understand a Thousand Sons you should think as a scholar, void of emotions, knowledgeable and daring. They know what their psychic talent can bring to mankind, they know about the truth behind the veil, they know it on an academic and more detailed level than Lorgar or Horus and their legions ever could, they know not only the benefits but also the risks. The thing is that the Thousand Sons were willing to risk, to sacrifice themselves on the pyre of knowledge but this noble goal was first perverted and then betrayed by the Emperor himself, the mightiest psyker of mankind, the true illuminated one, genewright and sorcerer himself, hence a hypocrite, a liar and a betrayer. 

 

A Thousand Son would not say that the Emperor betrayed his legion, but he would clearly and openly state that the Emperor betrayed his own species for the sake of temporal power and an allegedly secure existence shrouded in a veil of ignorance and lies, thus shutting mankind from its true potential as a species, from the gods which belong to mankind and from the true and tangible power of the Warp (which I would state time and again is bot beneficial and harmful but both aspects are necessary).

http://gifs.gifbin.com/1233928590_citizen%20kane%20clapping.gif

 

Far better said then I could ever do so.

 

But as an admendum, of all the Legions and all the factions of the Space Marines, I could see the Thousands Sons getting along with the Eldar better then anyone else, possibly explaining Khayon's girlfriend thrall, although it would be more relevant to the Craftworlders. I imagine that were Ahriman to simply sit down and talk with Eldar like civilized folk, they might even agree with each other. Tzeentch is not the enemy of the Eldar, and is not as inherently violent as Khorne or Slaanesh. Indeed, Prospero and the Thousand Sons were the closest humans to reach the standards and culture of the Craftworld Eldar.

 

 

 

So this is all subjective, and a matter of personal taste, and silly nonsense, but here's the way I see it.

 

In 40K, "psykers" exist - fine.  Defining exactly how psychc powers work is a bit murky, but some psykers are clearly more powerful than the others - which is also fine.  But in ToH, the "psychic abilities" that Khayon manifests throughout the story put him (IMO) into the "Alpha Plus, Plus" category of psykers - someone who is clearly uniquely (and suddenly) superior to everyone else, and stands what we know about this (fake) universe on its head.  (Which is why I think it's so funny that Lheor refers to what Khayon does as "magic" on several occasions.  Sure Lheor is a World Eater, but even he's presumably familiar with psykers from other Legions and the xenos, and realizes that Khayon falls into a different, far superior, category.)

 

Why do I say all this?  Because ToH itself took the time to specify the Tlaloc's mass (eight megatonnes,) and the (rough) time Khayon dragged it throught the warp (several months,) how he tossed it at Canticle City (hurled like a spear,) what he suffered enroute (having to "concentrate, sweat, curse and ache,") and what the ultimate cost to Khayon was (dehydration, a short blackout, nausea and weakness.)  Looked at as a whole this, to me, far exceeds anything I've seen any other psyker do in 30 or 40K (since I've never had the pleasure of reading about Ahriman moving planets with his mind) - the Emperor (a god) and Magnus (a demi-god) excepted.  And so this crosses the line from being "psychic powers" to being "magic" for me as well.  (Because if most, or even some, other psykers could even do even a fraction of this, we'd see dreadnaughts being tossed into orbit all the time - but how often does that happen in Black Library 40K fiction?) 

 

A subtle and artificial distinction to be sure, but the main point of making it (for me at least) is this - that if every other Sorceror in 40K is "just" a Psychic, and Khayon is the one real "Magician," (can do whatever he wants, whenever he needs to, with a wave of the hand and little cost,) then the remaining stories in this series are going to be far less than page turners - because how can he ever lose?  So bring on the Pariahs, or Grey Knights, or a toning down of Khayon's powers.  I can live with a power level of 9.9 out of 10 for Khayon (I'd expect nothing less of Abaddon's own) - but cranking things up to 11 for the entire series?  Not so much.

 

I really don't think you understand just how powerful some psykers are. Khayon is not Alpha Plus lol, not even remotely close to Alpha even. At best he's a Beta, and even that's pushing it. An Alpha level psyker is capable of enthralling hundreds of billions of people simultaneously, turning them all into his puppets even across star systems. They can kill entire planets with a twitch of their eyebrows, wipe away legions of Titans with a glare and raze entire armies without having to drop ships on them. They can stop time, teleport across the galaxy, pimp slap Greater Daemons, raze fleets, etc.

 

Alpha Plus is the level of the God Emperor of Mankind, who is powerful enough to engage all four Chaos Gods in a game of mental determination and stalemate them all. Sure he's slipping, but he's been able to hold back the legions of unreality for ten thousand years. Against Chaos Gods.

Except we never see that happen other than an incredibly vague passage in the rulebook. It is completely and utterly out of scale with anything in the rest of the 40K franchise. Magnus, who is one of the top 3 Psykers in 40k canon, was completely drained after destroying a Titan. Heck, the Emperor himself had to put his full power into destroying a moon sized asteroid. I don't care about Khayon's performance against Horus but I have trouble accepting that Khayon did something far beyond what his master was capable of doing. If the whole thing was a ritual that required lots of prep I could accept it but not just an off the hand power. Sorry if this comes off a little rant-like.

 

You mean like when the Emperor dissolved thousands, probably of millions of Orks with a passing thought after Horus "saved" him? Like when Dak'ir flew through space at hypersonic speeds and cut the flagship of a Chaos Space Marine Warband in half with a sword, then flew back down to the surface and hurled a Daemon the size of a titan into Mount Deathfire? You mean the time when Zahariel froze time as a child, peeled apart the atomic bonds of a daemonic beast, and shot it clean through the heart? You mean the time when a Child Astropath froze a Librarian to his place and glued his feet to the floor for several minutes until Sevetar put a bolt in his head? You mean when Magnus froze time completely on his ship? You mean when during the fight between Magnus and Russ, the planet was breaking and jets of lava were erupting around them? You mean the time when Malcador moved Titan? You mean how for the past ten thousand years in 40K the God Emperor has held back the Chaos Gods from devouring the entire universe? Nothing Khayon did was beyond his masters, and as for the fight between Magnus and Russ, people seem to forget that Russ has some weird esoteric powers that nullify psykers around him (on top of Wolf general weirdness like the Canis Helix or Rune Priests).

 

The problem is that people have very small selective personal libraries. Not that it's some weird new thing in 40k.

 

 

 

The problem with Lorgar's scolding is that Lorgar was right. The Emperor was obviously for all intents and purposes a god, at least in the way gods are gods in the 40k universe. Yeah the Emperor told the primarchs not to do this or that, but something doesn't become good or true just because a figure in authority says it is, and that was what both Lorgar and Magnus reacted to. That said, Magnus was rather arrogant, and may have thought that he could outsmart Tzeentch even if he understood that Tzeentch was sentient and a Chaos god, but he would have been much better prepared if the Emperor shared his own knowledge with him instead of just telling him to stay out of the basement.

I find it funny how some people still haven't gotten the point that the Emperor is indeed a Warp God, if not possibly his own gestating Chaos God. I mean Living Saints kinda put the nails through the coffin already, along with Sisters, Miracles in FFG, the Legion of the Damned, etc. It rather seems like the Emperor just couldn't accept what he really was, maybe wanting to be less, or not able to come to terms with the nature of his being.

[Prot]

Well, The Emperor did warn several primarchs, including Magnus, of the specific dangers of the Warp. 

 

 

 

WLK

 

Honestly in all my years of reading the Black Library stuff, I don't think I've ever seen/heard of the Emperor explaining Chaos, the great enemy, the one thing that could be his undoing, to his sons.

 

What book is this in? I definitely missed it.

[Wade Garrett]

In Unremembered Empire Roboute has a flashback to before the Heresy, when Big E told him that the Warp Powers scattered the baby Primarchs.

[Lucien Eilam]

He warned them about Warp, but I don't think he ever explained its true nature to them. They understood them as malevolent Warp aliens.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

Well, The Emperor did warn several primarchs, including Magnus, of the specific dangers of the Warp. 

 

 

 

WLK

 

Honestly in all my years of reading the Black Library stuff, I don't think I've ever seen/heard of the Emperor explaining Chaos, the great enemy, the one thing that could be his undoing, to his sons.

 

What book is this in? I definitely missed it.

 

 

the Collected Visions has it, as well as Corax stating it (who decided to without the info from his Legion until they were ready to know in Soulforgei think), as well as already mentioned Guilliman in UE.

 

WLK

[Disciple of Fulgrim]

 

You mean like when the Emperor dissolved thousands, probably of millions of Orks with a passing thought after Horus "saved" him? Like when Dak'ir flew through space at hypersonic speeds and cut the flagship of a Chaos Space Marine Warband in half with a sword, then flew back down to the surface and hurled a Daemon the size of a titan into Mount Deathfire? You mean the time when Zahariel froze time as a child, peeled apart the atomic bonds of a daemonic beast, and shot it clean through the heart? You mean the time when a Child Astropath froze a Librarian to his place and glued his feet to the floor for several minutes until Sevetar put a bolt in his head? You mean when Magnus froze time completely on his ship? You mean when during the fight between Magnus and Russ, the planet was breaking and jets of lava were erupting around them? You mean the time when Malcador moved Titan? You mean how for the past ten thousand years in 40K the God Emperor has held back the Chaos Gods from devouring the entire universe? Nothing Khayon did was beyond his masters, and as for the fight between Magnus and Russ, people seem to forget that Russ has some weird esoteric powers that nullify psykers around him (on top of Wolf general weirdness like the Canis Helix or Rune Priests).

 

The problem is that people have very small selective personal libraries. Not that it's some weird new thing in 40k.

 

Now this is really useful stuff, even if I'm not familiar with any of the references.

 

So in 40K fiction, psykic powers are basically just another way of saying magic? - not just for "gods" and "demi-gods," but anyone else an author needs to categorize as having "god-like" powers to move the plot along?  Not really surprising, given how GW manages the IP, but a bit of a bummer for me.  I sort of liked how GW has tried to differntiate WH40K from WHFB over the years, but maybe the two really are in the same universe after all.

 

Still gonna get book two of the Black Legion series, but if Khayon starts flying though space and cutting starships in half with his sword in the next installment, I may have to pass on book three.

[Rain]

Yes, it is indeed just magic. The sci-fi coating is very thin, and considering the fluff about how the warp and especially sorcery and whatnot work, it really is just magic.

 

And Khayon won't fly or anything like that. ADB is mostly fairly reserved in his 40k fiction, leading to a kind of gritty faux-realism that makes his novels read a cut above other BL writers. The main exception is Sevatar who literally surfed on the back of a fighter as it flew through space, wondered at one point why it's so easy for him to be more awesome than everyone else (it's because he has secret space magic that lets his sense his opponents moves before they happen), and is both the guy that coined "Death to the False Emperor and a possible founder of the Grey Knights. I guess he "only" tied Sigismund in a duel though, by headbutting him and disqualifying himself because he is too badass to care about silly honor duels and Sigi, the best and otherwise undefeated duelist among all the Space Marine legions can't protect himself against Sev's head.

 

If we are all lucky, he is dead now though, or at least missing or whatever, since he is an odd anomaly among otherwise complex and interesting characters.

[Volt]

Yes, it is indeed just magic. The sci-fi coating is very thin, and considering the fluff about how the warp and especially sorcery and whatnot work, it really is just magic.

 

And Khayon won't fly or anything like that. ADB is mostly fairly reserved in his 40k fiction, leading to a kind of gritty faux-realism that makes his novels read a cut above other BL writers. The main exception is Sevatar who literally surfed on the back of a fighter as it flew through space, wondered at one point why it's so easy for him to be more awesome than everyone else (it's because he has secret space magic that lets his sense his opponents moves before they happen), and is both the guy that coined "Death to the False Emperor and a possible founder of the Grey Knights. I guess he "only" tied Sigismund in a duel though, by headbutting him and disqualifying himself because he is too badass to care about silly honor duels and Sigi, the best and otherwise undefeated duelist among all the Space Marine legions can't protect himself against Sev's head.

 

If we are all lucky, he is dead now though, or at least missing or whatever, since he is an odd anomaly among otherwise complex and interesting characters.

Naw, he's better alive. The Prince of Crows is among the better characters of the Horus Heresy, and proves even Night Lords, scum of the Legions the cold-blooded murderers they are, have a heart.

 

 

Like how Sev took offense to the brutal beating and maiming of a little girl who befriended him and brutally murdered the bejebus of the overseer of her astropath group.

 

[Rain]

Eh, chalk it up to personal taste then. I know a lot of folks really like him, but he flies too close to the "super badass who is good at everything" line for my tastes. I know that he is a first captain, so super badass is practically his job description, but for me he's still a bit much. He's perhaps not as grievous an offender as Loken, but ADB is a much better writer than Graham and whoever else wrote the sillier I AM CERBERUS Loken stuff, so I hold him to a much higher standard. Whether that's fair or not.

 

As far as HH characters go, I loved Argel Tal, I thought that he was pretty much the definitive example of how to write a sympathetic Traitor Legionnaire. But then I'm a weirdo, and my favorite HH novel is The First Heretic (and Legion, but that was kind of a side story to the Heresy).

[Volt]

Hey ADB, completely unrelated, I'd just like to ask you, were you trolling people with rudimentary understanding of big numbers when you said a Tredecillion Eldar?

 

Because I KNOW you picked that number on purpose.

[A D-B]

 

 

You mean like when the Emperor dissolved thousands, probably of millions of Orks with a passing thought after Horus "saved" him? Like when Dak'ir flew through space at hypersonic speeds and cut the flagship of a Chaos Space Marine Warband in half with a sword, then flew back down to the surface and hurled a Daemon the size of a titan into Mount Deathfire? You mean the time when Zahariel froze time as a child, peeled apart the atomic bonds of a daemonic beast, and shot it clean through the heart? You mean the time when a Child Astropath froze a Librarian to his place and glued his feet to the floor for several minutes until Sevetar put a bolt in his head? You mean when Magnus froze time completely on his ship? You mean when during the fight between Magnus and Russ, the planet was breaking and jets of lava were erupting around them? You mean the time when Malcador moved Titan? You mean how for the past ten thousand years in 40K the God Emperor has held back the Chaos Gods from devouring the entire universe? Nothing Khayon did was beyond his masters, and as for the fight between Magnus and Russ, people seem to forget that Russ has some weird esoteric powers that nullify psykers around him (on top of Wolf general weirdness like the Canis Helix or Rune Priests).

 

The problem is that people have very small selective personal libraries. Not that it's some weird new thing in 40k.

 

Now this is really useful stuff, even if I'm not familiar with any of the references.

 

So in 40K fiction, psykic powers are basically just another way of saying magic? - not just for "gods" and "demi-gods," but anyone else an author needs to categorize as having "god-like" powers to move the plot along?  Not really surprising, given how GW manages the IP, but a bit of a bummer for me.  I sort of liked how GW has tried to differntiate WH40K from WHFB over the years, but maybe the two really are in the same universe after all.

 

Still gonna get book two of the Black Legion series, but if Khayon starts flying though space and cutting starships in half with his sword in the next installment, I may have to pass on book three.

 

 

If you're seeing any use of psychic magic as some bizarre crutch purely to move a plot along, well, then you're basically doomed. That's not a particularly generous or realistic perspective, isn't really dripping with supportive evidence (as this thread is taking repeated pains to point out) and won't ever match up with the reality of the setting. And, again, I've said several times it was still a big deal for him and not the kind of thing he'll be doing repeatedly in the future.

 

That said, these are the guys at the right hand of Abaddon. Even at the beginning of their Black Legion careers, they've still been training and fighting in the literal Hell of human mythology for several centuries. They have many leatherbound books. Their apartments smell of rich mahogany. They're kind of big deals.

 

Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from. I get the angle. But you're mixing chalk and cheese and saying it all tastes terrible. I can't gloss it up or keep repeating what I and several others are saying: dragging a warship like that is a big deal... but in the context presented, it's just not that mega. It's just... not. If that makes Khayon an impossible character for you to enjoy, or ruins your understanding of 40K, then so be it. I can gladly live with that. It's nowhere near the extreme end of things 40K psykers are capable of, no matter who's writing about them. You're doing the setting itself a disservice to suggest this is some new direction lacking in integrity from the purity of what came before. 

 

Here's the thing. As others have commented, I'm fairly conservative in my 40K writing. And without even the implication of an insult, pretty much everyone who knows the setting well in this thread (and X-dozen reviews) has no problem with what Khayon did. I'm not saying they're right because there's no objective 40K to be right about. But I think that suggests something in terms of setting knowledge and balance. I like being conservative about this stuff, even in Hell itself where your thoughts become reality. 

 

Which, incidentally, leads into another aspect of this. The Eye is a realm where everything you think... often just happens. Khayon says that several times in explaining how it all works, in terms of the Chaos Marines coming to terms with where they'd moved. That's what the Eye of Terror is. It would've been perfectly valid to have him do that feat with none of the effort shown, and none of the consequences, but - again - I'm conservative.

 

 

So this is all subjective, and a matter of personal taste, and silly nonsense, but here's the way I see it.

 

In 40K, "psykers" exist - fine.  Defining exactly how psychc powers work is a bit murky, but some psykers are clearly more powerful than the others - which is also fine.  But in ToH, the "psychic abilities" that Khayon manifests throughout the story put him (IMO) into the "Alpha Plus, Plus" category of psykers - someone who is clearly uniquely (and suddenly) superior to everyone else, and stands what we know about this (fake) universe on its head.  (Which is why I think it's so funny that Lheor refers to what Khayon does as "magic" on several occasions.  Sure Lheor is a World Eater, but even he's presumably familiar with psykers from other Legions and the xenos, and realizes that Khayon falls into a different, far superior, category.)

 

Why do I say all this?  Because ToH itself took the time to specify the Tlaloc's mass (eight megatonnes,) and the (rough) time Khayon dragged it throught the warp (several months,) how he tossed it at Canticle City (hurled like a spear,) what he suffered enroute (having to "concentrate, sweat, curse and ache,") and what the ultimate cost to Khayon was (dehydration, a short blackout, nausea and weakness.)  Looked at as a whole this, to me, far exceeds anything I've seen any other psyker do in 30 or 40K (since I've never had the pleasure of reading about Ahriman moving planets with his mind) - the Emperor (a god) and Magnus (a demi-god) excepted.  And so this crosses the line from being "psychic powers" to being "magic" for me as well.  (Because if most, or even some, other psykers could even do even a fraction of this, we'd see dreadnaughts being tossed into orbit all the time - but how often does that happen in Black Library 40K fiction?) 

 

A subtle and artificial distinction to be sure, but the main point of making it (for me at least) is this - that if every other Sorceror in 40K is "just" a Psychic, and Khayon is the one real "Magician," (can do whatever he wants, whenever he needs to, with a wave of the hand and little cost,) then the remaining stories in this series are going to be far less than page turners - because how can he ever lose?  So bring on the Pariahs, or Grey Knights, or a toning down of Khayon's powers.  I can live with a power level of 9.9 out of 10 for Khayon (I'd expect nothing less of Abaddon's own) - but cranking things up to 11 for the entire series?  Not so much.      

See I disagree with this.  Khayon is not on a level all to himself. 

 

From the effort it took him during the travel.  I fully expected him to be dragging the 1/2 of the planet that the Vengful Spirit was resting on.  Had he accomplished what he did outside of the Eye of Terror it would have been much more impressive.  In 40k everything is relevent and accomplishing feats of great psychic might in an area with a weakened warp/real barrier is far less impressive then in areas where you don't have have that benefit. 

 

Basically throwing a ship in the Eye of Terror is less impressive then tossing a dreadnaught into orbit from some random planet outside of the Eye.  And compared to something like Malcador moving Titan (The moon) into the warp during the siege of Terra.  It looks almost like a simple task.

 

Imagine the difference between Superman flying around the Earth so fast to make it spin backwards and Superman even being able to "Leap tall buildings in a single bound" on Krypton.     

 

 

Beautifully put. 

 

 

 

 

A question ADB. Considering how well have you managed to characterize the World Eaters and the Word Bearer, their language, creed, units, etc. can we expect a similar treatment for the Black Legion? I second the interpretation provided by Vesper above, how much will we see the character of the Sons of Horus pop out from the ranks of the Black Legion, how much of them will be transplanted into this new "Black Legion" persona. In short will you make a similar work for the Sons of Horus elements as you did with the Word Bearers?

 

My fear, if I can call it objectively as fear, is that the character of the Sons of Horus will be lost in translation thus really sealing the legion in the past, leaving little for the future... dismantling the Chtonian roots, their traits, their philosophy, their charisma and to a certain extent their easy camaraderie and warrior creed. 

 

That's a perfectly valid fear. I suspect I can ease your fears; will reply later, bit busy at the mo.

 

 

Okay, I'm back now. 

 

The short version (because I spent too long doing stuff above) is that yes, this'll be a major feature going forward. There's a lot to be said for turning your back on the past, but the Black Legion isn't as "totally over it" as they often insist. Their battlecry is "We are Returned", which can be taken in several delicious ways. They still have the Eye of Horus on their armour for... many reasons, actually, which we'll go into soonish. Plus, there's the personal preference that Legion Culture in a novel is absolutely integral to placing the characters in context. My World Eaters talk in Nagrakali and have their gladiatorial trials, and their Librarians functioned in unique ways for unique reasons. My Night Lords had a functioning Nostraman language that I sank a fair chunk of time into starting, and loads of cultural tics like the Red Hands of Shame, and so on. 

 

It was less apparent in Talon because Talon was the "Actually, a lot of us weren't Sons of Horus..." novel, but you see Khayon beginning it: several times when he's explaining how the Black Legion sees something, he does it by using the Cthonian term, because that's what he uses in the 41st Millennium as a paid-up member of the Black Legion. The Legion begins to adopt a lot of Cthonian culture once it's more than a single mongrel warband - largely because its leader is Cthonian, and so are many of its members.

 

So, yeah, once the Black Legion kicks off, you'll see a lot more of it emerging.

 

Including Cthonian ganger topknots.  

 

I'm not even sorry.

[FashaTheDog]

 

Including Cthonian ganger topknots.  

 

I'm not even sorry.

 

 

Don't be; topknots are cool.  When the 14^th Doctor has a topknot, all the Whovians will have them too.

[The Red Thirst]

 

Yes, it is indeed just magic. The sci-fi coating is very thin, and considering the fluff about how the warp and especially sorcery and whatnot work, it really is just magic.

 

And Khayon won't fly or anything like that. ADB is mostly fairly reserved in his 40k fiction, leading to a kind of gritty faux-realism that makes his novels read a cut above other BL writers. The main exception is Sevatar who literally surfed on the back of a fighter as it flew through space, wondered at one point why it's so easy for him to be more awesome than everyone else (it's because he has secret space magic that lets his sense his opponents moves before they happen), and is both the guy that coined "Death to the False Emperor and a possible founder of the Grey Knights. I guess he "only" tied Sigismund in a duel though, by headbutting him and disqualifying himself because he is too badass to care about silly honor duels and Sigi, the best and otherwise undefeated duelist among all the Space Marine legions can't protect himself against Sev's head.

 

If we are all lucky, he is dead now though, or at least missing or whatever, since he is an odd anomaly among otherwise complex and interesting characters.

Naw, he's better alive. The Prince of Crows is among the better characters of the Horus Heresy, and proves even Night Lords, scum of the Legions the cold-blooded murderers they are, have a heart.

 

 

Like how Sev took offense to the brutal beating and maiming of a little girl who befriended him and brutally murdered the bejebus of the overseer of her astropath group.

 

 

"I AM JUSTICE!" "I AM JUDGMENT!" 

 

Powerful stuff, in that moment A D-B really showed how even the noblest of intentions can have a cold black heart of corruption

[A D-B]

 

 

Yes, it is indeed just magic. The sci-fi coating is very thin, and considering the fluff about how the warp and especially sorcery and whatnot work, it really is just magic.

 

And Khayon won't fly or anything like that. ADB is mostly fairly reserved in his 40k fiction, leading to a kind of gritty faux-realism that makes his novels read a cut above other BL writers. The main exception is Sevatar who literally surfed on the back of a fighter as it flew through space, wondered at one point why it's so easy for him to be more awesome than everyone else (it's because he has secret space magic that lets his sense his opponents moves before they happen), and is both the guy that coined "Death to the False Emperor and a possible founder of the Grey Knights. I guess he "only" tied Sigismund in a duel though, by headbutting him and disqualifying himself because he is too badass to care about silly honor duels and Sigi, the best and otherwise undefeated duelist among all the Space Marine legions can't protect himself against Sev's head.

 

If we are all lucky, he is dead now though, or at least missing or whatever, since he is an odd anomaly among otherwise complex and interesting characters.

Naw, he's better alive. The Prince of Crows is among the better characters of the Horus Heresy, and proves even Night Lords, scum of the Legions the cold-blooded murderers they are, have a heart.

 

 

Like how Sev took offense to the brutal beating and maiming of a little girl who befriended him and brutally murdered the bejebus of the overseer of her astropath group.

 

 

"I AM JUSTICE!" "I AM JUDGMENT!" 

 

Powerful stuff, in that moment A D-B really showed how even the noblest of intentions can have a cold black heart of corruption

 

 

Someone asked me at a signing why Sevatar did that. I said that it wasn't hard to work out, but that the answer is the crux of not only Sevatar's character arc and personal growth, but one of the crucial facets in the evolution of the Night Lords Legion. What some of them believe they could have been, what some of them believe they should have been, what the Legion was, and what it became.

 

In a better (or, y'know, worse) galaxy, and with a much more, uh, stable primarch... the Night Lords might never have gone as far as they did. Yes, they'd always instil fear, and yes, they'd always punish the guilty. But they could have been much more than bringers of terror and massive overkill-punishment for the guilty. It burns in the hearts of some of them, when they're at their lowest and most disillusioned. They could have been Justice incarnate.

 

It was such a great moment when the woman came back to me about an hour later and said she knew why Sev did what he did. I was expecting her to say it was about exerting what control he could in a situation where he was mostly powerless, and that would've been partially true, or that he's loyal to those that befriend him... which, again, is true. I was also expecting her to say that he did it because he's secretly noble-hearted. And that may or may not be true; I never comment on it much.

 

Instead, she said:

 

 

"Because what happened to the astropath girl was unfair."

 

"Yes." I couldn't help this huge, dumbass smile all over my face. "Exactly. In a better world, that's who Sev would have been. And who they're driving him to become."

 

 

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

Yes, it is indeed just magic. The sci-fi coating is very thin, and considering the fluff about how the warp and especially sorcery and whatnot work, it really is just magic.

 

And Khayon won't fly or anything like that. ADB is mostly fairly reserved in his 40k fiction, leading to a kind of gritty faux-realism that makes his novels read a cut above other BL writers. The main exception is Sevatar who literally surfed on the back of a fighter as it flew through space, wondered at one point why it's so easy for him to be more awesome than everyone else (it's because he has secret space magic that lets his sense his opponents moves before they happen), and is both the guy that coined "Death to the False Emperor and a possible founder of the Grey Knights. I guess he "only" tied Sigismund in a duel though, by headbutting him and disqualifying himself because he is too badass to care about silly honor duels and Sigi, the best and otherwise undefeated duelist among all the Space Marine legions can't protect himself against Sev's head.

 

If we are all lucky, he is dead now though, or at least missing or whatever, since he is an odd anomaly among otherwise complex and interesting characters.

Naw, he's better alive. The Prince of Crows is among the better characters of the Horus Heresy, and proves even Night Lords, scum of the Legions the cold-blooded murderers they are, have a heart.

 

 

Like how Sev took offense to the brutal beating and maiming of a little girl who befriended him and brutally murdered the bejebus of the overseer of her astropath group.

 

 

"I AM JUSTICE!" "I AM JUDGMENT!" 

 

Powerful stuff, in that moment A D-B really showed how even the noblest of intentions can have a cold black heart of corruption

 

 

 

I see it as the "Good guys" aint always Good, and sometimes even the "Bad Guys" have standards.

 

WLK

[The Red Thirst]

In a better (or, y'know, worse) galaxy, and with a much more, uh, stable primarch... the Night Lords might never have gone as far as they did. Yes, they'd always instil fear, and yes, they'd always punish the guilty. But they could have been much more than bringers of terror and massive overkill-punishment for the guilty. It burns in the hearts of some of them, when they're at their lowest and most disillusioned. They could have been Justice incarnate.

This explanation is why your the writer and I'm just a lowly reading peasant

[Loesh]

 

 

Including Cthonian ganger topknots.  

 

I'm not even sorry.

 

 

Finally, the only actual reason to read any of the books.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

Including Cthonian ganger topknots.  

 

I'm not even sorry.

 

 

Finally, the only actual reason to read any of the books.

 

 

I'd have that as a back cover blurb in a heartbeat.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

 

 

 

Including Cthonian ganger topknots.  

 

I'm not even sorry.

 

 

Finally, the only actual reason to read any of the books.

 

 

I'd have that as a back cover blurb in a heartbeat.

 

Random question - don't get me wrong the crew at Heavy Entertainment is great but their SM always end up sounding like wheezy old guys, any way they could get some dude with a rich, deep voice? Any way you could use your considerable clout to do that?

[Loesh]

Also, to add something actually constructive to the thread, DoF: I think that a lot of Khayons outlandishness which is rubbing me in the wrong ways is because of the suddenness as a first book, and as we get more backstory in further books he will become more normalized as we see how/why he gets all this stuff and as he actually advances in the ranks of the Black Legion, making it more and more justifiable.

 

A way I liked to put it to myself is: Is Khayon more outlandish then say, Doomrider? I love Doomrider and hope to see what happens to him at a latter date after his short story. But the guy is a Daemon Prince, riding a motorbike, with a skull constantly on fire, probably doing drugs that make anything on earth look like powdered milk, and rides out of the physical manifestation of mens desires and nightmares to slaughter people and space marines alike by the thousands with a pulsating sword and plasma gun because I can only assume in the Warp he is the Demi-God of Awesome.

 

That isn't some crazy thing from Rogue Trader, that is 2014, Is Khayon more outlandish then any of that? Ahahahahahahaha, No.

[b1soul]

I have to say...I'm really looking forward to upcoming ADB's expansion of Cthonian culture

[Volt]

I have to say...I'm really looking forward to upcoming ADB's expansion of Cthonian culture

Needs more cowbell Topknot.

[FashaTheDog]

 

I have to say...I'm really looking forward to upcoming ADB's expansion of Cthonian culture

Needs more cowbell Topknot.

 

"Guess what?!  I got a fever...and the only prescription is more topknot!  I gotta have more topknot, baby!

[Tenebris]

 

 

A question ADB. Considering how well have you managed to characterize the World Eaters and the Word Bearer, their language, creed, units, etc. can we expect a similar treatment for the Black Legion? I second the interpretation provided by Vesper above, how much will we see the character of the Sons of Horus pop out from the ranks of the Black Legion, how much of them will be transplanted into this new "Black Legion" persona. In short will you make a similar work for the Sons of Horus elements as you did with the Word Bearers?

 

My fear, if I can call it objectively as fear, is that the character of the Sons of Horus will be lost in translation thus really sealing the legion in the past, leaving little for the future... dismantling the Chtonian roots, their traits, their philosophy, their charisma and to a certain extent their easy camaraderie and warrior creed. 

 

That's a perfectly valid fear. I suspect I can ease your fears; will reply later, bit busy at the mo.

 

Okay, I'm back now. 

 

The short version (because I spent too long doing stuff above) is that yes, this'll be a major feature going forward. There's a lot to be said for turning your back on the past, but the Black Legion isn't as "totally over it" as they often insist. Their battlecry is "We are Returned", which can be taken in several delicious ways. They still have the Eye of Horus on their armour for... many reasons, actually, which we'll go into soonish. Plus, there's the personal preference that Legion Culture in a novel is absolutely integral to placing the characters in context. My World Eaters talk in Nagrakali and have their gladiatorial trials, and their Librarians functioned in unique ways for unique reasons. My Night Lords had a functioning Nostraman language that I sank a fair chunk of time into starting, and loads of cultural tics like the Red Hands of Shame, and so on. 

 

It was less apparent in Talon because Talon was the "Actually, a lot of us weren't Sons of Horus..." novel, but you see Khayon beginning it: several times when he's explaining how the Black Legion sees something, he does it by using the Cthonian term, because that's what he uses in the 41st Millennium as a paid-up member of the Black Legion. The Legion begins to adopt a lot of Cthonian culture once it's more than a single mongrel warband - largely because its leader is Cthonian, and so are many of its members.

 

So, yeah, once the Black Legion kicks off, you'll see a lot more of it emerging.

 

Including Cthonian ganger topknots.  

 

I'm not even sorry.

 

 

 

Thank you for the reply. Could you elaborate a bit on the transition from the Sons of Hours persona into the Black Legion? And another question, what is your mental process in the creation of a "culture" for a legion/company/character in your novels? Do you follow certain steps or you simply make it on the fly?

 

Allow me to elaborate a bit. In the NL series we have learned that the Nostraman culture is heavily influenced by the sort of "mafia" lifestyle, were a life of crime, gang warfare and feuds is considered the norm, hence it influenced the Nostraman culture and language. Nostraman as language is considered poetic "like a razor on the skin or the whisper of a murderer..." or in a similar way yet on the other hand I am very interested how the Chtonian culture will differ from the Nostraman, both of which are based upon a gang life style, with feuds and vendettas, with brutal clashes of rival bands and with a gutter and cutthroat attitude. 

 

A curious thing that I have noticed is that the supposed Sons of Horus culture is highly charismatic, but this how does affect them? In Talon we have seen Abaddon "bond" with his brothers with a combination of formality, personality and influence yet under the layers of his approach to the terminators it looked like an alpha wolf among a pack, a certain cruel, almost dominant approach.

 

I guess the trick is to make a clear distinction with what are essentially two very similar cultures, the Chtonian one and the Nostraman. I expect the Chtonian one to be "raw" but I struggle with the image of the SoH as the "noble barbarians", in my eyes the SoH is much more complicated than that yet it is almost impossible to find a clear BL resource or text which would define the "stereotypical Chtonian", I would very much like to see a minor character which would be the meter to measure the rest of the SoH, or to define them. 

 

Long story short. There are many aspects to this series, which in a greater or lesser way it will illuminate many aspects about the traitor legions and the chaos warband. I understand that what you are trying to make is our "Silmarillion" or our "Bible" where though the eyes of the Black Legion we will learn more about the mythos and the history of the chaos space marines.

 

Yet there are questions that I would like to see answered in the series, which is the only place where it actually could be answered. The question is the following:

 

Who is a Chtonian? How does he look like, how does he talk, act and think? What does he believe in and which is his set of morals? Why the Chtonian culture was allowed to influence the XVIth Legion and why this cultural influence was so strong, so overriding, so dominating (since I presume is more than just numbers of recruits)? What means to be a Chtonian and why the Warmaster in the first place catalyzed this transmutation of his legion?

 

To recap, I wonder, why was the XVIth legion so willing to shed its skin three times and each time it was a monumental change in both character and soul. Why the verdigris first and the black later had such a lure for the astartes of the XVIth. 

[Vesper]

And what is the place of the chtonian mythos ? What chtonian rites have been adopted, transcended, modified or sacrified during the mutation into the new thing the Black Legion is ?

There are probably contless cultural stuff brought up from secondary cultures such as those frome Prospero or Colchis.

Are we in some sort of multicultural entity (because Legionnaires come from basically everywhere) with a dominant one, or are we into something a bit more monolithic, you know, "in Rome, do as the romans do" ?