Conn Eremon Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 he was just another Thousand Son among many tens of thousands of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 he was just another Thousand Son among many tens of thousands of others. And yet, unless the Legion numbers change again, that's dead right. Glorious madness! (See also: the Persian Immortals didn't literally live forever, and the 300 Spartans were only 300 until the first guy died. Then they were 299.) "What do you want to call your Legion, Magnus?" "Well, there's a thousand of them right now, so... the Thousand Sons." "There, uh, was less yesterday and likely to be more tom--" "LALALALALALALALA." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Oh I know it's right, it just seemed particularly hilarious with that wording. "I am one of a thousand sons, like tens of a thousands others!" "But you just said there was only a thousand . . . " "Shut up, Dave." There's also the Brotherhood of the Thousand, a loyalist Chapter. Despite Space Marine Chapters only have a thousand in the sense of ten companies of ten squads of ten marines. Apparently its own Chaplains are not part of that Brotherhood. Sorry bro, you lost your place as one of the Thousand when you were promoted to Captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm aware of what a Salon is, in the sense it was just used, but for half a second when reading that post I thought about a bunch of 1Ksons sitting around gossiping while they got their hair done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firepower Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I'm aware of what a Salon is, in the sense it was just used, but for half a second when reading that post I thought about a bunch of 1Ksons sitting around gossiping while they got their hair done. What makes you think this didn't happen? They clearly put a lot of work into their cranial accessories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Thirst Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm aware of what a Salon is, in the sense it was just used, but for half a second when reading that post I thought about a bunch of 1Ksons sitting around gossiping while they got their hair done. What makes you think this didn't happen? They clearly put a lot of work into their cranial accessories. YAY!!! 1KSons can join The Emperor's Children and us Blood Angels in the "Fabulous" catagory :P There's also the Brotherhood of the Thousand, a loyalist Chapter. Despite Space Marine Chapters only have a thousand in the sense of ten companies of ten squads of ten marines. Apparently its own Chaplains are not part of that Brotherhood. Sorry bro, you lost your place as one of the Thousand when you were promoted to Captain. .... THIS!!!! .... This always bothered the hell out of me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Unbelievably, despite getting the first edition (it's still gorgeous and worth every penny) - I've only just finished it! I'd started it the day it arrived, but have managed to plough through about four other books at the same time. Admittedly, I've been busy in between (real life totally gets in the way) - but I think it was the fear that it wouldn't be everything I wanted the book to be, so I can't imagine how you felt about publishing it A D-B. Apologies therefore if, over time, I resurrect the odd train of thought - going to read this thread and devour what everyone else says. Oh, and obviously it was totally awesome and worth it - so all fears can be allayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Unbelievably, despite getting the first edition (it's still gorgeous and worth every penny) - I've only just finished it! I'd started it the day it arrived, but have managed to plough through about four other books at the same time. Admittedly, I've been busy in between (real life totally gets in the way) - but I think it was the fear that it wouldn't be everything I wanted the book to be, so I can't imagine how you felt about publishing it A D-B. Apologies therefore if, over time, I resurrect the odd train of thought - going to read this thread and devour what everyone else says. Oh, and obviously it was totally awesome and worth it - so all fears can be allayed. I've got a 14 hour flight today, so I'll be rereading it as well. With a notepad handy :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 If Sedition's Gate is worth 30 quid, then this is definitely worth 40 blips And looking back at this and remember I just ordered it :lol: Will let you know whether this was a better investment or not haha. Has literally just been dispatched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Or, as he said, he came to Terra alone because that is exactly where Abaddon wants him to be. And the potentialities of that, being endless, are excellent. I think his captivity works very well both as a literary device and in-setting. As a storytelling device it gives us the benefit of more angles and perspectives, without ruining the cohesiveness of a single narrator. Honestly, I like that enough that I'd forgive a few weaknesses to the in-setting logic of the thing. Agreed - it's definitely not a conventional narrative device, but it works really well. It's interesting to see how life has tempered Abbadon (from earlier portrayals in the Heresy), and his characterisation is absolutely spot on within it. Abaddon is dominant, not omnipotent. The Black Legion is ascendant. Not omnipresent. Is beautifully put! I quite like that it strips away that mythos, and that Khayon goes to lengths within the book to have a 'true' account, and avoid all the stuff they've been accused of (whilst acknowledging the power that such mythos can create). And the humour injected at points is glorious - really well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulemain Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 You know, I imagine Pre-Heresy Prosperine Society being the one in which "modern" humans settle in the most well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Fulgrim Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I just got around to reading ToH (which I got as a Christmas present – where does the time go?) and subsequently have also plowed my way through this (very interesting) thread. Inspired by both and for what it may be worth, here’s my review of ToH. (Warning: Mini-wall of text inbound, and it’s also chock full o’ spoilers.) 1. Overall: A very good read, 4 out of 5 stars, and probably worth the time of any Chaos Space Marine fan (even if, like me, you’re not a Black Legion supporter.) 2. The Good: What I really liked. a. Abaddon: As others have remarked on, ToH shows (or more properly, begins to show) why and how Abaddon and company are “the greatest threat” to the Imperium. To me this is plausibly done and tremendously welcome, since (along with the updated/expanded fluff in the Basic Rules and BL supplement) it serves as a great counterpoint to all the “Failbaddon” nonsense that’s been floating around the Internet for years. Is Abaddon in ToH way different from the guy we’ve seen in the Heresy series or the Night Lords trilogy? Sure, but that difference is necessary and interesting, and also justified (to some extent) in ToH by mention of Abaddon’s Dark Pilgrimage. (I was absolutely fascinated by the aptly numbered Chapter XIII, “Ezekyle,” set in Abaddon’s treasure room-cum-laboratory on the Vengeful Spirit. The descriptions and dialogue were all great, but what I enjoyed most was seeing Abaddon portrayed for the first time, not as some kind of raging madman, but as a charismatic and thoughtful leader. That’s why he’s so dangerous to the IoM in my opinion – because he can somehow bring a little order and vision to the forces of Chaos. I really hope we learn more about his pilgrimage through the Eye and how it changed him, perhaps via flashbacks in future installments.) b. Lheor and Telemachon: Two more pleasant surprises – a World Eater who can do more than run around screaming “Blood for the Blood God!” and someone from the Emperor’s Children who isn’t a deranged, simpering fop in power armor. And on top of that, they can even work together, post-Skalathrax – a nice little mini-example of how Abaddon can pull people together to get things done. c. Ultio: The Anamnesis initially bored me, and I actually groaned when it was revealed that it/she was originally Khayon’s sister Itzara – oh how tragic! But then she bonds with the Vengeful Spirit’s machine spirit and turns into a hot-blooded, butt-kicking war computer, “more alive” than Khayon has seen her in decades. Nice twist! d. The Ragged Knight: Another nice take on a 40K staple. The detailed but appropriately muddled background on his genesis was really interesting, and I liked the touch of being shown how a daemon feeds on its kills. (With bonus points for the Knight hacking up a skull as a present for Lheor, which the World Eater promptly declines.) e. Falkus and the Justaerin Secondborn; Fabius: Two further examples of a good author making even secondary/tertiary characters interesting. The “dispersed daemon” now possessing Falkus and the Justaerin is novel and seems to hold great promise, and the brief bit of dialogue between Abaddon and Fabius actually allowed me to (for once) take “Fabulous Bill” seriously, and not just as some Mad Scientist parody. f. The Framing Story: Given Abaddon’s shrewdness and Khayon’s god-like power, I have to assume that the latter’s surrender to the Inquisition is part of some cunning plan which will unfold later on in the series. While we wait for that, it’s fun to watch Khayon toy with the dolts from the Inquisition, along the lines of Hannibal Lector and the various other genius villains who’ve been mentioned. (Where’s Gregor Eisenhorn when you really need him? Or maybe Inquisitor Siroca will figure out what’s really going on before it’s too late? We shall see …) 3. The Not-So-Good: What I didn’t like, and knocked a star off for. a. Nefertari: Too much novelty rolled into one character for me. Not only is she a Dark Eldar hanging out with Chaos Marines (in the Eye of Terror no less,) but she also has wings, and is also semi-dead. I realize she plays an important role (though she seems to share those duties with Gyre and Itzara this go round) and that the wings will probably be explained somewhere down the line, but it’s still all a bit much for my tastes. (On the plus side, at least she seems to wear proper armor, and isn’t running around in a body glove or Wychsuit.) b. Khayon’s Powers: Way over the top in my opinion, though that seems to match the depiction of the Thousand Sons in “A Thousand Sons” and “Prospero Burns” of the Heresy series. (Have they always been this powerful? And I’m not referring to Magnus and Ahriman here, but the more regular Sorcerers.) He can stop bolter rounds with his mind (fine) and also psychically “unmake” a Space Wolf champion, after a full day of fighting and also being disemboweled by another Space Wolf (also okay – he must just be a really strong psyker.) But on top of that he can also psychically reverse ageing (which he does for Tzah’q) and also prevent death (which he does for Nefertari) – which starts to stretch things in my book, but is still basically okay. The real “jump the shark” moment for me came when we see Khayon hauling a two kilometer long, eight megatonne starship through space for “several months,” completely cloak it when they arrive above Harmony, and then hurl it into Canticle City like a spear – all at the cost of passing out for a few moments and then feeling dizzy, nauseous and weak for awhile. Is there anything this guy can’t do with his mind? “Oh look, there’s a loyalist Dreadnaught – I’ll just pick it up and toss it to the moon. A Land Raider? I’ll pick it up, use it to smash some loyalists, then toss it in a lake. A Titan? I’ll just make it dance like a marionette, right over a cliff.” (On the plus side Lheor does keep teasing Khayon about using “magic” which, besides being funny, definitely seems spot on, given Khayon’s magically diverse set of psychic powers.) c. The Fight With Horus’ Clone: My specific quibble with this scene is how long it takes Abaddon to step in and end it. About four pages go by between the Horus clone’s arrival and Abaddon saying “Enough,” during which: the clone smashes some Rubricae; Lheor and the World Eaters counterattack (and also get smashed;) Khayon tries to zap the clone (but is still tired from throwing a starship at a planet, and so gets smashed;) Nefertari flies over to help Khayon (and gets smashed out of the air for her trouble;) Gyre, Telemachon and Mekhari also all jump in to help Khayon (and, well, don’t do so well either.) And it’s only then, after all that, that Abaddon finally says “Enough?” – what on earth was he doing while three of the guys he hand-picked to lead his new Legion, and a host of others, were getting hammered to pieces? Cunningly or callously standing by, while his minions softened up the clone for him? That seems really out of sync with the new and improved Abaddon that’s been rolled out for this series. Was he taken by surprise, or somehow slower than all the rest of his posse? Sharpening the Talon, or doing up his topknot? We have no idea, because he simply vanishes from the story for four pages, in order to return for the (admittedly cool) final demise of the clone and his memories of Horus. 4. Final Thoughts: Please remember that this is just one guy’s opinion, and that I’m making no claims to writing “the definitive review” of ToH – your mileage may vary. Additionally, on the whole I really did like this book and am looking forward to the rest of the series, despite the minor gripes I’ve laid out above – no work is perfect, and I learned to stop looking for that long ago. Go “Team Chaos!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 a. Nefertari: Too much novelty rolled into one character for me. Not only is she a Dark Eldar hanging out with Chaos Marines (in the Eye of Terror no less,) but she also has wings, and is also semi-dead. I realize she plays an important role (though she seems to share those duties with Gyre and Itzara this go round) and that the wings will probably be explained somewhere down the line, but it’s still all a bit much for my tastes. (On the plus side, at least she seems to wear proper armor, and isn’t running around in a body glove or Wychsuit.) The wings implied to me that she was either a Scourge or at least underwent that part of the conversion to one. Homunculi can give you all sorts of neat new limbs, or eyes in the back of your shoulders, or whatever you can imagine and pay for (well, hopefully you paid for it). For those familiar enough with Dark Eldar fluff the wings didn't even cause us to bat an eyelash as the children of Commorragh are all kinds of twisted decadent. Although I am unsure if this occurs after Vect took control of the Dark City, angering him generally is a 'true death' sentence or worse, which would make her decision to run and hide in the worst possible place for her kind make sense. Then there is the issue of her 'resurrection' tweaking her temperament to match Khayon's goals; perhaps some sort of mental inclination to lean this way for that decision so her choices are less her own even though she believes them to be. Considering the vast scope of the setting and the impression I got that Khayon went out of his way to 'collect' rarities and novelties, I was able to accept her. Besides, I particularly liked the disdain and contempt she held for all the filthy Mon'Keigh around her, but I may just be biased towards Dark Eldar in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Fulgrim Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 @ Fasha: Thanks for the background on the wings. I'm not really up on the Dark Eldar, but do know enough about them to understand where you're coming from about the Haemonculi. Perhaps when the tale of Nefertari's wings is told, her character will snap into focus for me. Until then though, she still seems to be a rather contrived oddity to me. (That said, I too liked that she was true to her Eldar roots, and tossed out the occaisonal "Mon-keigh" insult - but also was willing to spar with the World Eaters.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yeah, Scourges are a unit in their codex and fairly common throughout the fluff; read Angy Chamber's Path of the Renegade/Incubus/Archon trilogy for a good look. You can even buy boxes of winged Dark Eldar from GW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 The real “jump the shark” moment for me came when we see Khayon hauling a two kilometer long, eight megatonne starship through space for “several months,” completely cloak it when they arrive above Harmony, and then hurl it into Canticle City like a spear – all at the cost of passing out for a few moments and then feeling dizzy, nauseous and weak for awhile. Is there anything this guy can’t do with his mind? Size matters not. The Fight With Horus’ Clone: My specific quibble with this scene is how long it takes Abaddon to step in and end it. About four pages go by between the Horus clone’s arrival and Abaddon saying “Enough,” during which: the clone smashes some Rubricae; Lheor and the World Eaters counterattack (and also get smashed;) Khayon tries to zap the clone (but is still tired from throwing a starship at a planet, and so gets smashed;) Nefertari flies over to help Khayon (and gets smashed out of the air for her trouble;) Gyre, Telemachon and Mekhari also all jump in to help Khayon (and, well, don’t do so well either.) And it’s only then, after all that, that Abaddon finally says “Enough?” – what on earth was he doing while three of the guys he hand-picked to lead his new Legion, and a host of others, were getting hammered to pieces? Considering the nature of the combatants, everything described on those pages probably took place in somewhere between the space of a heartbeat and a couple of seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Fulgrim Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 @Lucien: Have to disagree with you about the size issue - flinging a starship around isn't quite the same as pulling a glass of water across the table. And sure, the Horus clone was super-fast, and so were the World Eaters, and Nefertari, and the whole rest of the gang (even the Rubricae.) Which doesn't answer the question of why Abaddon was so super-slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 @Lucien: Have to disagree with you about the size issue - flinging a starship around isn't quite the same as pulling a glass of water across the table. How many more Yoda quotes is this going to take? And sure, the Horus clone was super-fast, and so were the World Eaters, and Nefertari, and the whole rest of the gang (even the Rubricae.) Which doesn't answer the question of why Abaddon was so super-slow. I don't think "unable to react so quickly a Primarch has no time to do anything at all" is necessarily the same thing as "super-slow", that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I don't think "unable to react so quickly a Primarch has no time to do anything at all" is necessarily the same thing as "super-slow", that's all. I believe the argument is not how come Abaddon didn't react as fast as Horus, but why Abaddon didn't react as fast as everyone else. I don't remember the specifics of that scene, so I'm not sure if what was depicted above is what was actually written, but going by that depiction it does seem like Abaddon reacted slower than his allies. It was only during a single second or two, and everyone was getting floored by Horus, but they were all reacting to Horus during that period, while Abaddon reacts after. Personally, I don't think it says anything meaningful that this is the case, if it is the case, but that's what seems to be the others' point. Not to compare him to Horus, but to his allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Well, look, here's the scene I pictured reading it: Horus heads straight for Khayon ("He came for me") through the Fifteen Fangs and the ranks of the Rubricae. Nefertari, Gyre, Mekhari and Telemachon throw themselves in his path on the way. Nobody else has to do anything except pull a trigger to react, they're just shooting. Abaddon has to get close enough to stick Horus with the Talon, and he arrives behind him, so he had to follow a Primarch in full-charge. I guess you were picturing the entire cast all standing together? But nothing in that scene makes sense if that's the case - they have to be in different areas of the room before the clone arrives for Abaddon to arrive behind him and Horus to be surprised at his presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 @Disciple - I had a couple of issues with Khayon's power levels but I reasoned that the reason he was able to pull the ship was because it was the only thing other than breathing he was focused on during the entire trip. Plus all sorcerers get a power boost just by being in the Eye. I dunno just guesses. As far as just disintegrating the Space Wolf champion, you got me there. *shrugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I saw Abaddon's non-immediate engagement as deliberate - and as a chosen show of power. He came in when he meant to. I had the same query being like 'why hasn't he intervened yet?' - which is why I think it was a choice, rather than being slow to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 It's not like Khayon is just some random schmuck sorcerer. He was Abaddon's first pick when assembling his team for the next 10,000 years, and he's doing all this in a realm of pure imagination, not realspace. I thought the point of the "fight" with the Wolf Lord was that he'd given a sorcerer his true name. And then he makes the mistake that costs him his life. ‘I am Eyarik Born-of-Fire,’ he says. ‘Thirsty is my axe for the blood of traitors.’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Therefore granting additional power... Khayon is clearly just a top sorcerer - unsure why this is almost unpalatable to some! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 The ability to call upon the Force Warp, is insignificant next to Power of the PLOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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