The Eternal Crusader

[Lucien Eilam]

Really good read. Guy Haley does for the Black Templars and void war what he did for the Novamarines, Blood Drinkers, and Space Hulks in The Death of Integrity. Covers the entirety of the orbital battle for Armageddon, scenes include Grimaldus' ascension to Reclusiarch, the appointment of an Emperor's Champion, Black Templar beliefs (including multiple assertions from in-universe sources that no other Chapter considers the Emperor a god), and what they really think about psykers:

 

The Black Templars changed their song to one of lesser volume, forming a counterpoint to the choir of cyber-thralls and relinquishing dominance to the voices of the astropath’s servants. As one, they turned to face her and touched their heads to the floor.

 

The Chaplains knelt and bowed their heads except Theoderic, who raised his crozius and shouted,‘Welcome, welcome, bid welcome to Blessed Mistress Anyanka Dei Osper, touched by the Emperor! Pay obeisance, give your awe! Here is one who has seen the light of the Lord of Man!’

 

He too knelt then. So the Black Templars remained, softly chanting, until Osper had traversed the two hundred metres to their place of gathering. Her procession parted and halted. The songs diminished to a murmur. Her bodyguards pivoted to line the aisle, clashing their blades upon their shields, and knelt, allowing Osper to come forward to greet the High Marshal.

 

The hymns quietened to a drone.

 

‘Blessed Lady, to what do we owe this honour?’ asked Helbrecht. ‘Too infrequently do you bring the light of the Emperor to us. We thank you for the blessing of your presence.’

 

I'm sure that'll be popular. (!)

 

Tiny cameos/mentions for the Death Spectres, Angels of Fire, Flesh Tearers, Iron Champions and Celestial Lions.

[SteelPaladin]

I'm hoping they collect these into an omnibus at some point. They collected three David Annandale novellas into a hardback called Overfiend, so hopefully that is what they will do here as well. 

[Jareddm]

For Astropaths it always made sense that they'd be respected.  It was other, non-soulbound psykers the Imperium makes use of that I felt the BT would take offense to.

[deathspectersgt7]

Agree with SteelPaladin .

[Marshal Rohr]

Such bull :cuss. Seriously. This is, by far, the highest level of stupidity I have seen from BL. Not FOUR years ago, Helsreach came out. Not ONE year ago, Blood and Fire was released. Has Guy Haley never heard of those two books? Has he never read them? What a :cuss joke. Here comes some new guy, and he just goes against everything A D-B wrote in his work. Whose :cuss idea was this? Seriously. Who gave this the OK? 

 

This is why 40K is :cuss. This is why it has become a massive joke. The authors don't even take their work seriously. Just punching a clock, while the few that do give a :cuss try and keep the franchise afloat. I cannot believe I wasted so much time and money on such a worthless venture. Eight years of my hobby life down the :cuss drain, because these people can't be bothered to try and keep it consistent. Its one thing when it comes from the studio, because no one has expected them to be able to tie their shoes, much less develop well conceived background, since 4th Edition. It is entirely another, when Black Library, which has given the fan base so much amazing stuff in the past few years, just churns this waste out and legitimizes the crap coming from the studio. 

 

My one, last hope for a reason to dust off my Templars, and again I'm handed :cuss and expected to be grateful for it. 

[redmapa]

Absolutely disgusting, disregarded as nothing but ramblings of a mad heretic and deceitful propaganda, that couple of paragraphs are so wrong on so many levels I am feeling levels of ZEAL of which I thought impossible..Let us pray:

 

 

+++

Smite now the scions of the Witch!
Grant us the strength to pierce their unclean flesh!
To cover their fields with the pale form of the blasphemous dead!
To drown the thunder of guns with the shriek of their dying!
To lay waste to their citadels with hurricanes of fire!
To wring the hearts of their kin with unavailing grief!
To send them into the waste of their desolate land in rags and hunger, broken in spirit, worn with travail and begging for the refuge of the grave.
We ask it, in the spirit of wrath, O Master of Mankind!

+++

[Lucien Eilam]

Haley is hardly "some new guy", he worked in the Design Studio something like 5 years before AD-B had anything published by BL, and all he's done is write to the actual IP rather than what you wish it said.

 

Given the material he's had to work with, I think he's done as good a job of justifying it as an internally-consistent belief system as anyone could hope. He's forced to be inconsistent with something whatever he writes, it's not laziness or incompetence to take into account what the single most common and widely-sold source of Black Templar background says about them.

 

It is entirely another, when Black Library, which has given the fan base so much amazing stuff in the past few years, just churns this waste out and legitimizes the crap coming from the studio.

 

They're literally the same department. "The Studio" doesn't exist any more. BL and games dev are teams under Citadel Publishing, sitting in the same room, with several writers producing material for both.

[Chaeron]

Haley is hardly "some new guy", he worked in the Design Studio something like 5 years before AD-B had anything published by BL, and all he's done is write to the actual IP rather than what you wish it said.

 

Given the material he's had to work with, I think he's done as good a job of justifying it as an internally-consistent belief system as anyone could hope. He's forced to be inconsistent with something whatever he writes, it's not laziness or incompetence to take into account what the single most common and widely-sold source of Black Templar background says about them.

 

It is entirely another, when Black Library, which has given the fan base so much amazing stuff in the past few years, just churns this waste out and legitimizes the crap coming from the studio.

 

They're literally the same department. "The Studio" doesn't exist any more. BL and games dev are teams under Citadel Publishing, sitting in the same room, with several writers producing material for both.

 

Yeah, the criticisms of Haley are excessive and unwarranted. He's an excellent author - and has been working for GW (in one capacity or another) for quite awhile. I imagine they do try and keep it consistent - that's why there are several editors to try and keep this consistency. Just because things are told from different perspectives...

 

Additionally, if he can make Grimaldus into someone that people can actually empathise with, that would be wholly positive.

 

Just be lucky your Chapter gets some attention!

[Wade Garrett]

"No other Chapter considers the Emperor a god..."

 

Guy Haley killed off the Red Scorpions and the Mortifactors?

 

That :cuss !

[Lucien Eilam]

For Astropaths it always made sense that they'd be respected.  It was other, non-soulbound psykers the Imperium makes use of that I felt the BT would take offense to.

 

We already knew they held astropaths in "special reverence" from the codex. 

 

But having the entire ~400 strong Ghoul Stars Crusade (High Marshal, Emperor's Champion, and Master of Sanctity included), on their knees, faces in the dirt, singing her praises, just because one walked in the room…

 

For anyone already bitter about the new background, that's got to sting. It's not like it's just a respectful nod and the sign of the Aquila or something.

 

Personally, I prefer the new Templars as an element of the 40k background. A true and pure continuation of the Great Crusade still existing 10,000 years later never sat quite right with me, and scenes like this showing their hypocrisy and how very far they've fallen from the ideals of the Imperial Truth seem a much better fit for the grim darkness of the far future. And their background as a space-faring Chapter in a universe where all interstellar travel and communication depends on psykers actually makes some sort of sense now, which is a bonus.

 

But they're not really an army I'd want to play any more, and I only have ~500 points as an allied contingent. I can imagine how aggravating that scene must be for anyone heavily invested in a pre-6th ed image of the Chapter.

[Lucien Eilam]

"No other Chapter considers the Emperor a god..."

Guy Haley killed off the Red Scorpions and the Mortifactors?

That !

Do you mean the Red Hunters? I don't think the Red Scorpions do.

It's possible of course that everyone in the story happens to be ignorant of the others, but Helbrecht and the Ecclesiarchy seem pretty certain.

The Black Templars, the Knights of Dorn, were the grim wardens of its precincts. Of all the sons of the primarchs, they reckoned themselves the true chosen of the Emperor. They and they alone saw through the myths and tales of their fellow Space Marines to recognise the divinity behind the man who made them.

They held it an irony that the other Adeptus Astartes did not embrace the truth so easily seen by the inferior humans they were made to protect.

‘Just so,’ said Helbrecht. ‘Never forget, we are the chosen sons of the Emperor, Bayard. Of all the Adeptus Astartes, only we have ever seen fit to acknowledge the truth of the Emperor’s divinity – no Chapter but we of the Adeptus Astartes has ever done this. The others are fools to deny our lord as a god.’

‘Among the Adeptus Astartes, you are the sole followers of the great truth of the Imperium, my lord,’ said [Ecclesiarchy Confessor Cornelius] Halquon to Bayard. ‘That the Emperor is a god. Your spiritual decisions are of great interest to us.’

Arguably the Mortifactors' beliefs, as a bunch of cannibal headhunters, are at odds with the Imperial Creed, so they don't count. And as Inquisition stooges, the Red Hunters might be unknown to most people. But there are also Chapters like the Fire Angels, so who knows.

[Perrin]

I'm not a Black Templars fan but even I can see this is bunk. I agree that there should be some leniency when they are working with astropaths and any other psykers who are soul-binded to the Emperor, but getting down on their hands and knees? No Space Marine should ever do that.

 

And the bit that others have already picked up on, the Black Templars being the only ones to worship the Emperor as a god. Is it just ignorance on the part of the author? I can't see a plot reason to have Grimaldus ignorant of the other religious Chapters. Inexcusable either way.

[Lucien Eilam]

Again, he's probably based it on what the codex says: "Unlike other Chapters, who venerate the Emperor as their creator and the rightful ruler of the Imperium, the Black Templars believe him to be a divinity to whom they offer worship".

 

Whether that's an intentional retcon or they just forgot about the others is anyone's guess, but I can't think of a more recent mention of a non-Templar Emperor-worshipping Chapter than 2012's The Emperor's Gift.

 

I'm sure it's a coincidence, but it is starting to seem like the best way to get anything significant retconned is to have A D-B write a novel about it.

[Marshal Rohr]

The codex is a piece of trash. Black Templars aren't the only chapter who received urine and were told to praise the vintage. Iron Hands come to mind with the absolute dissolving of anything remotely similar to what came before. I'm not saying the man shouldn't write books, but he should have some :cuss principles and try to undo, not add on to the :cuss in the codex.

 

You will never be able to make the case that the new fluff was a positive change. No one is lucky when their chapter gets attention anymore. It's just their turn on the 'What the :cuss' Train.

[Augustus]

You're right Lucien. When I first entered the hobby it was always "they respect him as whatan could become and as their creators but don't believe him a god." sort of thing. The Red Hunters however have afaik had their beliefs expanded. I like that there are chapters that do worship him. Mine does. It's a big universe.

[Deadman Wade]

What a piece of trash This Haley can stick this right up his *** and get his hands cut off after that, so he couldn't write such things anymore. The amount of talentless guys allowed to write 40k books with complete disregard to anything done before them is disturbing.

Idiotic fluff of new codex, stories about no-name chapter marines defeating templars in challenges, and now THIS? I guess only Chaos Space Marines got worse stuff.

[Jareddm]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

 

 

 

In answer to your query, the number of Black Templars has now become just over a thousand, sometimes more, sometimes less. It’s a change in the lore. In order to accommodate the older mentions I have their numbers being more flexible than that of other chapters, but not to such extremes as in the past.

 

 

 

Well, I understand it is a company decision, not the decision of the codex writers. They could just about manage that number of crusades, as some of them are very small, a squad or two. As you’ll discover later. I am writing a lot of Black Templar fiction, and that will be addressed in there. And personally I think it only increases their devotion – they’re trying to conquer the galaxy with a thousand men! Bear in mind too that they have only been explicitly stated to worship the Emperor as a god, the only chapter to do so, in the new codex.

 

source:http://guyhaley.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/im-baaaacccckkk/#comments

 

Nothing about the psyker veneration.  Though if someone would like to ask about it, he seems quite accommodating. 

[deathspectersgt7]

So Templars like to bow to Navigators. So No other Chapter is supposed to be as Good or able to best them come on. So I take it the story is lame.

[Knight of the Raven]

"I enjoy the sight of Astartes on their knees."

 

...

 

"That is a joke."

[Candleshoes]

Interesting to see the reactions.

 

Though I haven't heard the new HH audio "Templar" I wonder if this new direction IS actually supported by the HH team as well, since Sigismund himself in "The Crimson Fist" basically drank the kool-aid from the living saint, and was dis-owned by Dorn.

 

Add insult to injury, it is completely possible to see Sigismund as the start and the future of the god-like mentality in the Templars, far before the chapter's creation.

 

What makes it worse, is that you can't even complain that it is a new development in 40k, but has that it has roots now.

[Marshal Rohr]

More than likely, that is what will happen. Sigismund will jump right in to the Lecitio Divinatus and never stop to ask himself if maybe this is what got the Word Bearers in trouble. 

[redmapa]

 

Well, I understand it is a company decision, not the decision of the codex writers. They could just about manage that number of crusades, as some of them are very small, a squad or two. As you’ll discover later. I am writing a lot of Black Templar fiction, and that will be addressed in there. And personally I think it only increases their devotion – they’re trying to conquer the galaxy with a thousand men! Bear in mind too that they have only been explicitly stated to worship the Emperor as a god, the only chapter to do so, in the new codex.

 

Purge everything..PURGE IT ALL!

 

Someone send a copy of the 4th ed codex to this man, he needs to be illuminated.

[A D-B]

Such bull . Seriously. This is, by far, the highest level of stupidity I have seen from BL. Not FOUR years ago, Helsreach came out. Not ONE year ago, Blood and Fire was released. Has Guy Haley never heard of those two books? Has he never read them? What a joke. Here comes some new guy, and he just goes against everything A D-B wrote in his work. Whose idea was this? Seriously. Who gave this the OK?

This is why 40K is . This is why it has become a massive joke. The authors don't even take their work seriously. Just punching a clock, while the few that do give a try and keep the franchise afloat. I cannot believe I wasted so much time and money on such a worthless venture. Eight years of my hobby life down the drain, because these people can't be bothered to try and keep it consistent. Its one thing when it comes from the studio, because no one has expected them to be able to tie their shoes, much less develop well conceived background, since 4th Edition. It is entirely another, when Black Library, which has given the fan base so much amazing stuff in the past few years, just churns this waste out and legitimizes the crap coming from the studio.

My one, last hope for a reason to dust off my Templars, and again I'm handed and expected to be grateful for it.

On one hand, dude, I appreciate the fact that you liked my Templars. (I think you did, anyway. If I'm wrong, then leave me to my comforting assumptions.) And I realise your main objection is to overall inconsistency, rather than a specific grudge against divergence from what I wrote.

But.

And here's the big But.

This is what 40K is. We've not seen it much before because there's never been as much content before, but this is just what it is. There's no definitive 40K - there's many, many different artists and authors looking at a collected library of lore through their own lenses, telling their own stories. I've talked long and loud on it before as loose canon, and Marc Gascoigne explained it in a beautiful summation a while ago:

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

Now, I'm pretty sure you, M2C, and most of the others in the thread have read all that before. But that's the thing, it goes both ways. Just like Ultimate Spider-Man isn't The Amazing Spider-Man or The Spectacular Spider-Man, they're all still Spider-Man; they're all just as valid as each other. Someone can fall back on the uninspired explanation of "multiverses" if they're so inclined, but the fact is that it's a core concept being written in different ways, with different events, by different authors and artists.

That's 40K. I'm not angry at Guy for his Black Templars stuff. Maybe he loved mine, maybe he hated it, maybe he never read it. It's ultimately meaningless, because he's allowed to do whatever he wants with Grimaldus and the Templars, just as I was allowed to do whatever I wanted. It doesn't invalidate mine, no matter what some fans might think about how "new stuff always deletes old stuff". Just like my Night Lords stuff doesn't delete Simon Spurrier's, or Chris Wraight's Space Wolves don't delete Bill King's. There are direct contradictions, but it's just one author's take against another. (And on that note, I tried very hard not to contradict Si Spurrier's work).

Say that someone's really tempted to write a series about Ragnar Blackmane's life story. That'd involve a completely different series of events and an entirely different host of characters than Bill King's series. Well... that author will come under a storm of criticism for "daring" to "ignore" Bill King's depiction of Ragnar, as if it was sacred lore (and sacred law) than can't be touched. But it'd be no less valid, just more recent. On the same note, there were a few initial reviews of my Night Lords stuff that absolutely trashed it purely because of the contradictions with Lord of the Night, which was one of the early Black Library's most beloved books. Now it's probably fair to say the tables have turned a little in terms of public perception.

On the other hand, while I like Guy immensely (he's bloody adorable, that dude) I also despise him because he writes about 4 novels and 2 novellas a year, or something. I added up his releases against mine over a couple of years (including some upcoming stuff) and it clocks up that he writes quite literally four times faster than I do. That's impressive, but also makes his lovable face completely worthy of hatred.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not unprofessional or wrong to do what Guy did. You take your own perceptions of a faction, maybe add in a previous interpretation or two, and then run with it. That's just how the licence works.

[Visitor13]

Oh man. At least Iron Hands fans can take solace in 30k. I'm truly sorry to see BT fluff crapped on like that. R.I.P. Black Templars.

 

Also, so the Fire Angels no longer worship the Emperor as a god?

[redmapa]

Don't worry ADB, Im sure most True Templars will ignore this witch-loving fluff and move on.