The Eternal Crusader

[incinerator950]

 

 

Helbrecht is appointed as head of the space defense of Armageddon even though he's one if the youngest, least-experienced Chapter Masters present.

 

Not to mention he is probably not all that familiar with the Codex Astartes, and he is supposed to coordinate the efforts of multiple Chapters, most of whom probably are Codex adherent.

Maybe if this was 2009, but now it appears that the Templars are largely codex adherent. Their largest divergence is the way the train recruits in their younger years, and they allow the majority of their marines to pick their own weapons.

 

The Templars no longer have any background to support the notion that they are any quirkier than the Minotaurs or Carcharodons in their preferences.

It has neither been implied nor confirmed merely because it has been ignored that they're codex adherent. In fact, there is total absence of the remark and it's the result of dumbing down and shorthanding.

 

It's different than saying Legions are dead for Chaos or the Unforgiven as a whole operate nearly at a Legion level.

[Phoebus]

 

How do you build an army around the idea of loose canon though?

Simple enough, you play Chaos, the masters of loose canon. If you dislike something you simply make a warband which fits your ideals or use the excuse of "time in the Warp" for your benefit.

 

But really I do not get this stuff. With the advent of Clan Raukaan it is clear that all SM chapters are being streamlined for a more optimal base for future novels, books, supplements... it makes things more efficient and this will be the norm. Black Templars had some unique elements, some of which were retained when they moved them in the generic codex, but ultimately they need to be streamlined for future reference. I expect them to be even more codex as years pass, it is called evolution and I think it is for the best.

 

On the other hand I know that you secretly field librarians by the dozen, they are that useful nowadays

 

 

I hope you're wrong, because - no offense - that sounds like an awful idea.

[Perrin]

Agree with Phoebus, that is a really bad idea.

 

Purely from a background / Black Library view point, most Space Marine novels are already quite samey, making every Chapter the same will make it even worse.

[Tenebris]

It is not "a bad idea", it is what is happening, or has been happening for quite some years. Legions were turned to warbands, non codex chapters to codex chapters... GW is levelling the playing field, they are building the basis for a sandbox experience when you have loose templates with which you can or cannot conform, the army is yours, hence its fluff its yours. 

 

What is happening is that they are cutting loose ends and in the case of the Templars... Sentinels of Terra presents the Imperial Fists as the true heirs of the knightly tradition. They are still on a crusade, they still bring new worlds in the imperial fold. Black Templars are becoming a variant of their primogenitor chapter so most of the fluff will be based upon the same pattern, codex like. Clan Raukaan showed us the intent that GW is adamant in streamlining the Warhammer 40k factions, in the end it is a good if not great thing for the novice player who now only has to choose a colour scheme and worry little about us the "fluff nazi" which on ourself we can be quite a deterrent. 

 

All in all, if this makes the hobby more likeable to the new generations of 40k players and collectors it is "a good thing", means that in a few years from now we will still be able to play with our plastic soldiers...

[Mike Zulu]

I finally bit the bullet and read the book, and was mostly unimpressed.

 

Not so much because of the fluff changes, but the whole book feels rushed. Personally, I believe the book is merely an attempt to consolidate our fluff, trying to accommodate as much of recent Black Templar fiction as possible, including the 6th edition changes. It does not really provide a new story.

 

Now, I'm not saying that consolidation is a bad thing, in fact it's probably something we need right now, but it doesn't make for a good read.

 

Also, I'm sorry if I'm reiterating what someone has already said, just wanted to add my thoughts to the topic.

[Wade Garrett]

How in the name of the Emperor, the Dark Gods, and bloody Khala Mensha Khaine is making all the different Astartes factions "X, with different paint jobs" helpful to the casual player?

 

If someone is so paralyzed by the idea that the Black Templars and the lron Hands are not Ultramarines companies XI and Xll, if they are too lazy to spend ten minutes with google and learn the fluff of the faction they "want to play"...why exactly do l want to draw them to the hobby, into of using the toe of my boot to propel them out of it?

 

How does that even work out?

 

"Well, golly, l want to play Space Wolves but l don't like the idea of space Vikings, or werewolves, and I won't play them unless they're hairy Ultramarines."

 

GET! OUT!

 

If you don't like the idea of angry guys in tabards who hate witches and Crusade around smiting things with chainswords, the obvious solution would seem to be that you should go play Raven Guard, or the lmperial Fists, or whatever, not:

 

"We must make the Templars identical to everyone else."

[Marshal Rohr]

The most nonsensical bit is when people defend the psyker changes based off the 'how would they send messages and communicate?' argument. The IA article and the codex mentioned the Templar specifically used astropaths and navigators who were repentant of their abilities. It was covered in the older fluff. It didn't need to be changed. It really, really didn't need to be changed from using penitents to worshipping them. How the :cuss did that even seem ok? 

 

Such a waste. A cool faction relegated to uselessness by a team of hacks who can't think beyond the most obvious themes. 

[Tenebris]

...because they were consolidated into the "codex astartes" book and theirs difference is in the form of chapter traits and three special characters, and the crusader squad entry. In fact it is aptly presented in the Sentinels of Terra that the Imperial Fists are the true heirs to the crusading tradition of their legion. For all intents and purposes the Black Templars are nowadays a codex chapter who happens to dislike witches but venerates the Emperor as a god hence pays homage to one who was touched by the radiance of their god, the astropaths.

 

The fact is that they are in the codex book and their main differences boil down to chapter traits. They can claim to have Sword Brethren and Castellans, but in all truth it is Veterans and Captains/Chapter Masters. No fuss here, it comes with the job of being a codex chapter. I agree that some fluff can be disagreeable but overall the process is set in motion and the Black Templars are being "codified". The Emperor's Champion is as much a tradition of all the successors of the Imperial Fists as it is of the Black Templars. In terms of gameplay they are a codex chapter with some more melee oriented rules. 

 

The Eternal Crusader is merely a step toward this direction. Some retcons are direct such as Clan Raukann, some are more indirect as it is this case. I don't understand why people fuss over something that is that clear. I read most Black Library books when they come out and so far I have found nothing to fault in the Armageddon series. The Black Templars get some nice page time and this should be a good thing. If a retcon comes with that all the better, the fluff is being streamlined and the hobby too.

 

It is the same case with the passage from 3.5 to 4th with Chaos, from legions to warbands. Well I never felt this much of a problem, fluff evolves, sandbox is the norm so they provide the tools for that. GW is doing what they have to do, streamline their armies for easier use on all levels of the hobby. Fluff standardization is only one of the norm for this process. 

[Perrin]

It is not "a bad idea", it is what is happening, or has been happening for quite some years. Legions were turned to warbands, non codex chapters to codex chapters... GW is levelling the playing field, they are building the basis for a sandbox experience when you have loose templates with which you can or cannot conform, the army is yours, hence its fluff its yours. 

 

What is happening is that they are cutting loose ends and in the case of the Templars... Sentinels of Terra presents the Imperial Fists as the true heirs of the knightly tradition. They are still on a crusade, they still bring new worlds in the imperial fold. Black Templars are becoming a variant of their primogenitor chapter so most of the fluff will be based upon the same pattern, codex like. Clan Raukaan showed us the intent that GW is adamant in streamlining the Warhammer 40k factions, in the end it is a good if not great thing for the novice player who now only has to choose a colour scheme and worry little about us the "fluff nazi" which on ourself we can be quite a deterrent. 

 

All in all, if this makes the hobby more likeable to the new generations of 40k players and collectors it is "a good thing", means that in a few years from now we will still be able to play with our plastic soldiers...

 

Wade put its it a lot better than I can above, but I'll reply anyway.

 

Where did I mention new players? I said purely from a background / Black Library perspective. Just because GW are already doing it doesn't make it not a bad idea. How utterly dull would the setting be if every Chapter was the same except for their colour scheme? 30k is much more popular than 40k right now, or at least on these forums, and that's because each Legion is so different. They have different troop choices and rules that differ hugely from each other Legion, and it makes the armies more unique.

 

In 40k baring special Chapters like the SW, all the codex Chapters are more or less the same. Same troop choices, same rules.

 

I haven't met/read of a single Iron Hands player that liked the Clan Rauuken supplement. It actually furthered the feeling that news of a codex being released for your faction is a bad thing, as all of your fluff will be butchered. The reaction to this book is a lot more mixed, but I haven't seen many Black Templar fans actually saying "Yes, I like the new direction that this book has taken".

 

You don't need to make everything the same to attract new players. 

[Marshal Rohr]

...because they were consolidated into the "codex astartes" book and theirs difference is in the form of chapter traits and three special characters, and the crusader squad entry. In fact it is aptly presented in the Sentinels of Terra that the Imperial Fists are the true heirs to the crusading tradition of their legion. For all intents and purposes the Black Templars are nowadays a codex chapter who happens to dislike witches but venerates the Emperor as a god hence pays homage to one who was touched by the radiance of their god, the astropaths.

 

The fact is that they are in the codex book and their main differences boil down to chapter traits. They can claim to have Sword Brethren and Castellans, but in all truth it is Veterans and Captains/Chapter Masters. No fuss here, it comes with the job of being a codex chapter. I agree that some fluff can be disagreeable but overall the process is set in motion and the Black Templars are being "codified". The Emperor's Champion is as much a tradition of all the successors of the Imperial Fists as it is of the Black Templars. In terms of gameplay they are a codex chapter with some more melee oriented rules.

 

The Eternal Crusader is merely a step toward this direction. Some retcons are direct such as Clan Raukann, some are more indirect as it is this case. I don't understand why people fuss over something that is that clear. I read most Black Library books when they come out and so far I have found nothing to fault in the Armageddon series. The Black Templars get some nice page time and this should be a good thing. If a retcon comes with that all the better, the fluff is being streamlined and the hobby too.

 

It is the same case with the passage from 3.5 to 4th with Chaos, from legions to warbands. Well I never felt this much of a problem, fluff evolves, sandbox is the norm so they provide the tools for that. GW is doing what they have to do, streamline their armies for easier use on all levels of the hobby. Fluff standardization is only one of the norm for this process.

 

It's fine if you prefer the new stuff for the legions and the space marines chapters. The studio will continue on doing whatever the hell it wants and the BL authors will write more books about it. I think you're confusing attention with positive attention. It isn't good when the studio or a BL authors writes a book about a chapter or legion. It's not something to be celebrated. Unless, by some small chance, you are lucky enough to get one of the few decent authors at BL, you're in for a :cuss show. Every time I see a new book on the BL site, I cringe. I feel sad for the players out there who collects that army. Whenever a new codex comes up for preorder, well then you know it's game over. It's Russian roulette with a glock. Did you by chance read the newest space wolf codex? Lemme save you some time, it's terrible. Grey Knights? Better than 5th, but really, coming from the studio that just means they finally learned to color inside the lines. I guess that's a good thing, but they're still terrible.

 

Just as an example of how :cuss their work is, let us use Sentinels of Terra, a new book written by Mat Ward. In this book, as you described, suddenly the Imperial Fists have all the doctrines and beliefs of the Templars. Try to follow me on this. Codex Space Marines came out in August/September and SoT a couple of months later. Not two months before the codex was released Blood and Fire by A DB came out which reaffirmed ALL the old fluff about the Black Templars.

 

That means that there was ZERO coordination. It was entirely arbitrary. The studio just changed it because the people that work in their are intellectually lazy and phone in everything they do. There is no effort besides just to fill the books with words. They suck at their jobs. Pure and simple.

 

Again, feel free to feel another way, but you'll certainly never convince me and your view that this is for the best is certainly valid, but definitely falls very, very short of what I find valid. Since I'm the one with all the useless black and white models, just like all the people with useless 3.5 legion models, I'm going to remain pissed off until A DB's second Abaddon book comes out, where we will see if he can salvage the faction from the damage done by the studio's inadequacies and exacerbated by Guy Haley writing books about it.

[Chaeron]

 

 

How do you build an army around the idea of loose canon though?

Simple enough, you play Chaos, the masters of loose canon. If you dislike something you simply make a warband which fits your ideals or use the excuse of "time in the Warp" for your benefit.

 

But really I do not get this stuff. With the advent of Clan Raukaan it is clear that all SM chapters are being streamlined for a more optimal base for future novels, books, supplements... it makes things more efficient and this will be the norm. Black Templars had some unique elements, some of which were retained when they moved them in the generic codex, but ultimately they need to be streamlined for future reference. I expect them to be even more codex as years pass, it is called evolution and I think it is for the best.

 

On the other hand I know that you secretly field librarians by the dozen, they are that useful nowadays

 

 

I hope you're wrong, because - no offense - that sounds like an awful idea.

 

 

I can't imagine that happening anyway - perhaps cut away the more obtuse fluff, but I don't think they'll massively change anything that has been a constant for so long.

 

Templars probably got this because they're a second founding - so whilst maintaining some quirks, are perhaps not as quintessential as the main chapters themselves. The idea of 'streamlining' does just seem odd - whereas this appears, as others allude to, to be more of a consolidation of recent work.

[Tenebris]

Actually the Space Wolves fluff was not bad. The system of Fenris was expanded and presented, we learned that they do indeed have a protectorate and we also learned a lot more on Fenris itself. I have also found very likeable the Sanctus Reach expansions about the Space Wolves and this means a lot, considering that I value them as my "anti-legion" the space marine faction I despise most. As for the Grey Knights, hell reading the "new" fluff almost made me to collect one of the Brotherhoods. 

 

Overall I do not find the recent Black Library books all that bad. Perhaps the Salamander books could use a bit more refinement but that is all. With the volume of material released inevitably some coherence is lost but it is the personal interpretation of an author. Speaking as one who studies laws, interpretation is not always bad. 

 

All in all I do not see this much stress, and I still have a legion army and I happily play in the 7th edition without chaos legion rules. For me change is always welcome and it usually leads to an interesting time in the hobby. 

[Marshal Rohr]

As one who studies norms and what happens when you violate them, swift and unexpected changes in norms cause fracturing of shared values. In the international systems this means people might die. In this hobby it means people have to read my whining ;)

[Sincollector]

Lol, that was random. I'm a lawyer and I don't have the slightest idea what interpretation of laws has to do with interpretation of a wildly fantastical fictional setting by different authors beyond shared use of the word "interpretation" and variations thereof.

 

I also don't think there is a coordinated streamlining process. Dataslates, formations, supplemental codices, supplemental rulesets like Apocalypse, etc, the addition of warlord traits and a new phase to the game...the pace of fragmentation of the 40k rules is increasing rather than decreasing. The idea that GW is simplifying to attract new players flies in the face of all evidence. Trying to keep a semi-decent understanding of the units in the game and the various rulesets is an expensive proposition and a barrier to entry. A barrier that GW seems intent on raising higher and higher.

[incinerator950]

It is not "a bad idea", it is what is happening, or has been happening for quite some years. Legions were turned to warbands, non codex chapters to codex chapters... GW is levelling the playing field, they are building the basis for a sandbox experience when you have loose templates with which you can or cannot conform, the army is yours, hence its fluff its yours.

 

What is happening is that they are cutting loose ends and in the case of the Templars... Sentinels of Terra presents the Imperial Fists as the true heirs of the knightly tradition. They are still on a crusade, they still bring new worlds in the imperial fold. Black Templars are becoming a variant of their primogenitor chapter so most of the fluff will be based upon the same pattern, codex like. Clan Raukaan showed us the intent that GW is adamant in streamlining the Warhammer 40k factions, in the end it is a good if not great thing for the novice player who now only has to choose a colour scheme and worry little about us the "fluff nazi" which on ourself we can be quite a deterrent.

 

All in all, if this makes the hobby more likeable to the new generations of 40k players and collectors it is "a good thing", means that in a few years from now we will still be able to play with our plastic soldiers...

That is :cussing terrible.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

 

On the other hand I know that you secretly field librarians by the dozen, they are that useful nowadays

 

Definitely not... that's what Cullexus Assassins are for.

[Sete]

I tried to like the new fluff, honeslty did, the attention on the Templars is nice. But now there is another book coming in... and will expand on the knelling and psyker boot licking.

And honestly its enough for me.

This new lore is just driving me away from the templars.

[b1soul]

How in the name of the Emperor, the Dark Gods, and bloody Khala Mensha Khaine is making all the different Astartes factions "X, with different paint jobs" helpful to the casual player?

 

If you don't like the idea of angry guys in tabards who hate witches and Crusade around smiting things with chainswords, the obvious solution would seem to be that you should go play Raven Guard, or the lmperial Fists, or whatever, not:

 

"We must make the Templars identical to everyone else."

 

It's not. Usually it's subjective whether a fluff change is "good" or "bad"...but I'm having a really hard time thinking of how this could be good 

[Dono1979]

The overiding positive element out of all of this is the fact that there are pretty passionate players out there who will refuse to acknowledge the new facet of fluff in relation to the Templars numbers and reverance of the Emperor (and his Astropaths). I feel I can compare myself to Marshal2Crusader on a number of level, time invested, size of force, disgruntled with mehcanics etc, however where I diverge is that I think I became so sick of the direction which GW was taking with its codexes that I basically started ignoring them well before the latest Codex: Space Marines came out.

 

Instead I took my Templars and sent them off into the galaxy, seperated from the rest of the Imperium and isolated, left to their own device and their (my) interpretation of what they should be like. I use Imperial Armour lists like Siege Assault Vanguard and Tyrants Legion to represent my Templars in 40K games and converted the vast majority of my units to be able to be used as 1st Company Templars in an Imperial Fist Legion for 30K. In short I largely ignore GW's latest view/facet/dimension of the fluff.

 

As ADB posted on the first page of the thread, all of the fluff ever published is correct.... and a lie. In a universe which is full of lies, misinformation, failed communications, disjointed time due to warp travel, hundred year travel times and infinite other issues, consistency CANNOT exist.

 

Of course the Templars are Codex compliant! They have to be, that is what was decreed during the breaking of the Legions. They are appearing next to their Codex brethren and so must appear as such. Several thousand strong? No no no, we might bulge over the thousand mark a little occasionally but of course we limit ourselves to a thousand. Truth...... lies.

 

What else would allies and friends of the Templars portray them as to the wider Imperium and the baelful eyes of the Inquisition? Let the Imperium THINK we are only 1000 strong and conform to some misguided dusty tome, let them think we get down on bended knee to the Astropath who have repented their ways and serve penance on our crusading ships, let them think these things and let them focus their attention elsewhere.... and let us CRUSADE.

 

The fluff is what you want it to be, if people seriously start arguing with you that you cannot imagine the fluff about your mandollies the way you want to, then you probably need to play with a different crowd of people lol.

 

I have over 30,000pts of Templars.... NO ONE is going to tell me the fluff for my own army, if they have succumbed to the propoganda about the Templars, then less respect to them, I will still always kill any and all witches on the field of battle and bend a knee to no one but the Emperor and the High Marshal.

[Legatus]

I imagine the Templars revering Psykers and adhering to the Codex must feel to their fans a bit like the Ultramarines forming unorthodox anti-Tyranid units and their Captains constantly going against the Codex does for me.

[The Red Thirst]

"Well, golly, l want to play Space Wolves but l don't like the idea of space Vikings, or werewolves, and I won't play them unless they're hairy Ultramarines."

 

GET! OUT!

 

I completely agree with Wade on this, I would literally burn all 40k elements of my collection and just focus on the Heresy if the Blood Angels turn out to be just Red Ultramarines with wings and nipples

 

I fear for the future of my chapter Brothers 

[Marshal Rohr]

Not just nipples. Blood Nipples.

[The Red Thirst]

Not just nipples. Blood Nipples.

Golden, that ones going in my Sig ;)

[b1soul]

"Black Templars had some unique elements, some of which were retained when they moved them in the generic codex, but ultimately they need to be streamlined for future reference. I expect them to be even more codex as years pass, it is called evolution and I think it is for the best."

 

Horrible...