Denouncing the Marchine Spirit?

[Hyuzanriu]

     I understand that it would be considered techno-heresy for anyone to do this, but a heretic is never a heretic in his own eyes.  Is it possible that a chapter of marines could denounce the Cult of Mars and the Omnissiah while still revering the Emperor.  The belief that everything has a machine spirit up from the destructive Warhound titan down to the lowly bolter shell is ridiculous.  The only reason it is generally accepted is because people are born and raised under the belief that technology is holy.  What I am more curious of is if there is any legitimate possibility that a group of marines could denounce the Omnissiah and devote themselves to truly understanding technology.  Doing things like reverse-engineering and making legitimate attempts to find an answer other than, "It works because the machine spirit has been appeased."

 

    While I know the Cult of Mars would not appreciate something like this happening I have to wonder if the Inquisition or High Lords of Terra would even care.  A chapter that denounced the Omnissiah would have to have its own forge worlds and train its own techmarines, but that doesn't sound too far fetched given the resources available to the Astartes.  The real question is how feasible is this and how likely is it that the chapter would be declared excommunicated?

 

     I ask mostly because I am working on a small chapter of marines that are successors to the Iron Hands (about 400 marines strong) and wanted to make them a little different, but not absurdly different.

[Lord Commander Scrymgeour]

The stagnation of technology is a pretty important part of the 40k lore, however I believe there is some ultramarine tau heresy in the Dorian heresy stuff, maybe you could check that out.

[Hyuzanriu]

I understand that the stagnation of technology is a big thing in 40k lore, but at the same time if this chapter recently took such a decision in the last 100 years of the millennium then it shouldn't contradict anything.  In fact I believe that in the years following the Damocles Crusade that such a thing happening is far more likely after observing what advances in technology are capable of.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If the ever did such a thing, I doubt they'd broadcast it.  That would draw a LOT of unwanted attention from other organs of the Imperium that are not likely to appreciate such a shift in thought.

[Lysimachus]

I think it's very unlikely for anyone trained in the 'mysteries' of the AdMech to then go against its key principles by messing with stuff. However, I guess that if a young Chapter somehow lost all its Techmarines leaving the battle brethren to muddle through, they might end up taking a more pragmatic view of technology.

 

Even from that point it's quite a stretch to use xenotech, given how much the Astartes hate all xenos. Not impossible though, maybe if they were given some hints by a (going) rogue Ordo Xenos Inquisitor?

[Hyuzanriu]

     Oh no I didn't mean USING xeno tech.  I meant any chapter that fought against/worked closely with Tau during/since the Taros campaign could possibly begin to wonder why xeno tech works without a machine spirit. What I am gathering is that such a thing, while possible, is too far fetched of an action for a DIY chapter and should be left only in GW hands.  I was only curious of the possibility because a similar thing happens everytime a new religion pops up in our time.

[CyderPirate]

I thought that machines in the 40K universe DID have a machine spirit? It might not be the thing responsible for what makes it work, but I was under the impression that these things exist. Its certainly the case with the god-machines - but are things like Rhinos 'alive' or is that just the mysticism and superstition?

[Hyuzanriu]

Some of them exibit qualities that would identify that a form of intelligence resides within the machine, but most do not.  It is just believed that they have machine spirits.  There is a fairly large thread on either here or dakkadakka (I don't remember which) as to whether or not machine spirits are legitimate or a form of misunderstood AI so I won't bother delving into that subject.

[CyderPirate]

Ah fair enough. As to whether an entire chapter could end up with such a belief system seems unlikely - as has already been mentioned, they'd need to hide it from the other major players in the Imperium. Its much more the realm of the likes of Inquisitors than space marines, I think.

 

That said, I can see a rogue techmarine playing around with the notion, and maybe spreading it to those around him in the armoury and so on. So ideas might take hold in the part of the chapter that deals with technology - but for it to be the defining characteristic of an entire chapter, with the knock-on effects you mentioned, they'd quickly be branded as heretics.

[BassWave]

You can't denounce the Omnissiah and praise the Emperor because to the general population of the Imperium they are one and the same. Any chapter publicly voicing these opinions would have all their apothecaries mysteriously assassinated by an "incredibly accurate ork sniper". You also have to remember that its the Mechanicus that supplies the entire Imperium with technology. You piss them off and suddenly your shipment of ammunition and fuel has been postponed indefinitely.

 

However I do believe that a chapter that is secretive to begin with would be able to hide such controversial beliefs. In fact, considering how pragmatic the Raptors are in regards to waging war, I wouldn't be surprised if they were just as pragmatic with technology.

[Brother_Ead]

Human technology is divinely inspired by the Omnissiah. That's why we say human technology has the machine spirit. Xenos technology is heretical because it isn't divinely inspired by the Omnissiah and therefore lacks the machine spirit. Artificial intelligence is heretical because it is not human and therefore it also lacks the machine spirit. It is not heretical to incorporate living human neural tissue in cogitators that control autonomous machines. Such machines have spirits capable of acting of their own accord, but they are still human, still divinely inspired, and will not betray humankind as AI inevitably does.

Out of character, I think of the Cult Mechanicus as techno-Catholicism. The Omnissiah is the Father, the Emperor is Jesus, and the machine spirit that resides in all human technology is the Holy Spirit. It's the 40k equivalent of the Holy trinity. Reading from STC operations manuals is essentially like reading from the Bible, and maintaining STC technology is like prayer at mass.

[Hyuzanriu]

Brother Ead that is probably the best simple comparison of what the Omnissiah is that I have ever heard.