Battlereport: GK vs Eldar - 2000 Points...what a mess :(

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The problem with Maelstrom is the random VP's generated for either side. Also, the random objective grabs you're forced to undertake are painful as hell. I disagree about static shooting, if you have good fire support units and a few mobile units to grab distant objectives, you can dominate very hard. Deployment has a lot to do with it as well. 

 

IMO, Grey Knights lack either the staying power or the number of units to do objective-based play. Our only real shot of victory revolves around landing Turn 1 in enemy lines and hitting with an alpha strike the enemy never recovers from. Anything else is doomed to failure. Allies of course can change that picture, but then you're not really playing Knights, you're playing something+Knights, and that something is generally doing all the things I just described (holding ground, Skyfire, staying power etc). 

[jeffersonian000]

The issue with Maelstrom, and to a greater extent all of the new random tables, is that it turns 40k from a wargame into a boardgame. We are now literally playing Monopoly with uber-expensive DIY board, tokens, and play-money.

 

Instead of the Shoe, I get the Draigo!

 

Darn! I landed on ObSec Ave, again. /sad face

 

Dang, Mishap! Go straight to DS Reserve Jail, collect no VP!

 

Why does Dick always play the Banker-Eldar! It so unfair!

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

OMG this!

 

:D

 

WooT!  I just killed the Avatar!

 

*Next Turn*

 

I've pulled the 'Kill the Daemon' card....

 

>_<

 

It's like landing on Chance squares.

[Purifying Tempest]

I guess all of our models kept landing on the "income tax" square... except the Dreadknight... He hit free parking and blinged out his ride.

[Eisenhardt]

I thought a little bit about a new list...in 3 weeks is the rematch, so still some time to think.

 

Based on the models I own (the LR have to be taken from the Black Templars and Draigo has to be shown by a BT Hammernator), I found the following list:

 

---------- HQ (1) ----------

Librarian (135 points)
- Mastery Level 3
- Nemesis Warding Stave

---------- Troops (2) ----------

5x Terminator Squad (463 points)
- Psycannon
- 4x Nemesis Force Halberd
- Terminator Justicar
__- Storm Bolter
__- Nemesis Daemon Hammer
- Land Raider
__- Multi-Melta

6x Terminator Squad (491 points)
- Psycannon
- 4x Nemesis Force Halberd
- Nemesis Warding Stave
- Terminator Justicar
__- Storm Bolter
__- Nemesis Force Sword
- Land Raider Crusader
__- Multi-Melta

---------- Heavy Support (3) ----------

Nemesis Dreadknight (225 points)
- Heavy Incinerator
- Heavy Psycannon
- Nemesis Greatsword
- Personal Teleporter

Nemesis Dreadknight (225 points)
- Heavy Incinerator
- Heavy Psycannon
- Nemesis Greatsword
- Personal Teleporter

Nemesis Dreadknight (225 points)
- Heavy Incinerator
- Heavy Psycannon
- Nemesis Greatsword
- Personal Teleporter

---------- Lords of War (1) ----------

Kaldor Draigo (245 points)

______________________________________________
2009 points

 

 

It is a total different approach...no deep strike, just tanking with LR and jumping around with NDK (using as much cover as possible). Of course Draigo, Librarian and 6 Termis are together in the LRC. This list should save me from most of the Eldar AP2 shots and Draigo cannot be instantly killed by the Wraithguards...But again I have nothing to deal with the Crimson Hunter...

 

What are your ideas?

[Everon]

If the libby is with the 6 termies then scrap the extra warding stave. Could go to a falchion or hally and admantium will does not stack

[Gentlemanloser]

You're 9 points over.

 

Drop a Multi Melta form one of the LR's.  Maybe.

[Eisenhardt]

If the libby is with the 6 termies then scrap the extra warding stave. Could go to a falchion or hally and admantium will does not stack

 

Your are right, no need for it! so not over 2000 pts anymore.

[Brom MKIV]

The problem with Maelstrom is the random VP's generated for either side. Also, the random objective grabs you're forced to undertake are painful as hell. I disagree about static shooting, if you have good fire support units and a few mobile units to grab distant objectives, you can dominate very hard. Deployment has a lot to do with it as well. 

 

IMO, Grey Knights lack either the staying power or the number of units to do objective-based play. Our only real shot of victory revolves around landing Turn 1 in enemy lines and hitting with an alpha strike the enemy never recovers from. Anything else is doomed to failure. Allies of course can change that picture, but then you're not really playing Knights, you're playing something+Knights, and that something is generally doing all the things I just described (holding ground, Skyfire, staying power etc). 

I agree completely with your comment on [pure] GKs and objective play. Without fast disposable elements, preferably OS it just isn't viable. If I were to attempt competitive with GKs it would include allied CADs, but thats pretty much the case with every army in 7th. I'm operating under the assumption that a 'pure' GK list is for casual i.e. non tournament circuit play and that changes the perspective of my comments quite a bit in these discussions. 

 

When I said gunline though I wasn't talking about a firebase + support. I dont consider that a 'gunline'. Thats more just a proper army and I agree its still a strong approach.

I was talking more about fortifications, max HS like tau and even orks with upwards of 60 lootas behind 9 void shields can throw down and so on. Truly static armies with a couple mobile last minute grabbers like koptas, suits etc. These are what maelstrom and even imperial knights actively discourage. And good riddens. Those armies were their own form of deathstar and boring as hell to play against.  

 

Sadly no matter what GW does eldar skew the result. I don't feel they are a good baseline though, rather the anomaly that will get fixed next edition. 

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

...But again I have nothing to deal with the Crimson Hunter...

 

What are your ideas?

 

 

Well you do have twin-linked weapons on the Land Raiders and it would be a brave pilot of an AV10 flyer that did not jink when you declare you are taking a pot-shot at it with a twin-linked lascannon or assault cannon using PotMS. If you can keep it jinking you can negate quite a lot of its effect.

 

Actually being only AV10 it can be wrecked by Purifying Flame and jink is useless against that. Worth considering.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree completely with your comment on [pure] GKs and objective play. Without fast disposable elements, preferably OS it just isn't viable. If I were to attempt competitive with GKs it would include allied CADs, but thats pretty much the case with every army in 7th. I'm operating under the assumption that a 'pure' GK list is for casual i.e. non tournament circuit play and that changes the perspective of my comments quite a bit in these discussions. 

 

Tau, Eldar and Necrons smash tournaments without Allies, in fact with Allies they're even harder to fight. Space Wolves by and large don't need Allies to do their thang, and Tyranids are achieving great results despite GW actively penalising any attempt to Ally with them. I disagree that in 7th everyone needs to Ally to be competitive. Its mainly Imperial forces that are saddled with that, and even then, it isn't equally weighted (AM do alright without Allies, Marines the same...). 

When I said gunline though I wasn't talking about a firebase + support. I dont consider that a 'gunline'. Thats more just a proper army and I agree its still a strong approach.

I was talking more about fortifications, max HS like tau and even orks with upwards of 60 lootas behind 9 void shields can throw down and so on. Truly static armies with a couple mobile last minute grabbers like koptas, suits etc. These are what maelstrom and even imperial knights actively discourage. And good riddens. Those armies were their own form of deathstar and boring as hell to play against.  

 

The thing is, that kinda component to a list isn't especially expensive to achieve (Lootaz are still cheap, and the void shield stacking is easily done in a single Fortification slot). Orks can build a formidable gunline, and still take Battlewagons, Deffkoptas and even just Run mobz at you without needing to skew their list hard at all. 

 

Truly static armies are very rare in my experience, and its not because of Maelstrom. Its because of Serpents, Annhilation Barges, Riptides etc, who will hammer enemy gunlines into paste if you don't have fast stuff to shove in their grill and draw fire/tie them up/hopefully kill them. Biker Marines have had a revival for this exact reason, outside of Pod lists Marines have no other way to get to grips with a gun platform that moves 12" a turn. 

 

4th was the last time pure gunline lists were viable. Mech in 5th broke the meta, and 6th and 7th have only further emphasised the need to get out of your DZ at least in part to cap objectives. 

 

Sadly no matter what GW does eldar skew the result. I don't feel they are a good baseline though, rather the anomaly that will get fixed next edition. 

 

 

Eldar and Tau need to be nerfed substantially. Necrons are okay I feel. Daemon Factory hasn't become a thing, so Daemons can be left alone for now I feel (between our update and Culexus becoming absurd, psyker heavy lists can be countered). 

Well you do have twin-linked weapons on the Land Raiders and it would be a brave pilot of an AV10 flyer that did not jink when you declare you are taking a pot-shot at it with a twin-linked lascannon or assault cannon using PotMS. If you can keep it jinking you can negate quite a lot of its effect.

 

You still need 6's to hit, even twinlinked your odds are pretty bad. This is yet another reason why Ravens are so much better than Land Raiders, as they can Skyfire as need be and their weapons are far better at taking out enemy Flyers (twin lascannon or twin assault cannon, typhoon in the nose, hurricane sponsons for rear AV or light flyers). 

Actually being only AV10 it can be wrecked by Purifying Flame and jink is useless against that. Worth considering.

 

Agreed. It's kinda dumb how effective 'Cleansing Flame' is. Its our only real counter to FMC's and Flyers outside of the Raven, and the fact it auto-hits with 'Ignore Cover' is amazing. 

[Eisenhardt]

 

 

...But again I have nothing to deal with the Crimson Hunter...

 

What are your ideas?

 

 

Well you do have twin-linked weapons on the Land Raiders and it would be a brave pilot of an AV10 flyer that did not jink when you declare you are taking a pot-shot at it with a twin-linked lascannon or assault cannon using PotMS. If you can keep it jinking you can negate quite a lot of its effect.

 

Actually being only AV10 it can be wrecked by Purifying Flame and jink is useless against that. Worth considering.

 

For sure the Crimson Hunter would use the Jink save...so I will try to take it down with the LR.

 

I forgot about the Purifying flame, you are right. But in the above list I have no Purifiers and for the Librarian I would take othe discipline than sanctic powers.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

For sure the Crimson Hunter would use the Jink save...so I will try to take it down with the LR.

 

 

Good luck. You have 1/3 chance of hitting it to begin with. You then need to at least glance (lascannon won't struggle, but AC will), and you need three glances to kill it. Considering it has a 4+ jink, your odds are pretty poor. 

 

I forgot about the Purifying flame, you are right. But in the above list I have no Purifiers and for the Librarian I would take othe discipline than sanctic powers.

 

 

You need Purifiers then. I'd drop a Termie squad and both Land Raiders, and replace them with Ravens. You'd save points as well. 

[Happy-inquisitor]

Good luck. You have 1/3 chance of hitting it to begin with. You then need to at least glance (lascannon won't struggle, but AC will), and you need three glances to kill it. Considering it has a 4+ jink, your odds are pretty poor.

.

You might struggle to glance it to death but penetrating hits will nerf it's firepower and might cripple or kill it. Maybe the eldar player should take the risk but many players will declare the jink in which case your shot will keep some of your termie models on the table

[Reclusiarch Darius]

You might struggle to glance it to death but penetrating hits will nerf it's firepower and might cripple or kill it. Maybe the eldar player should take the risk but many players will declare the jink in which case your shot will keep some of your termie models on the table 

 

You'll struggle to glance it at all, between Snap Shot and Jink. The Eldar player will be quite happy to dodge your shots to keep his Crimson Hunter. It won't stop other anti-2+ Eldar guns ripping you apart anyway. 

[hornywingythingy]

Worst part is that's a fluffy eldar list, wraithfighter and crimson hunter? TBH the average eldar army is far scarier, I actually quite like the iyanden army idea, but it's hardly obscene. Sounds like you had bad luck and weren't familiar with what the units did, which is always heading for a drubbing..

[Purifying Tempest]

The biggest perks of nemesis strike force aren't seen until you go second.

 

Placing a dreadknight and watching it get shreaded from focused fire turn one is no bueno, and it can happen if the opponent is given the opportunity.

 

Deep striking turn 1 gives you the opportunity to keep it safe and place it better (thus saving the teleporter shunt for objective sniping).

 

If I got first turn, sure deploy it and risk the seize. If I go second, NDKs usually go right into deep strike reserve.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The biggest perks of nemesis strike force aren't seen until you go second.

 

Placing a dreadknight and watching it get shreaded from focused fire turn one is no bueno, and it can happen if the opponent is given the opportunity.

 

Deep striking turn 1 gives you the opportunity to keep it safe and place it better (thus saving the teleporter shunt for objective sniping).

 

If I got first turn, sure deploy it and risk the seize. If I go second, NDKs usually go right into deep strike reserve. 

 

This is very true, and its yet another reason why we should never use normal CAD for our armies anymore. The Nemesis Strikeforce offers so many buffs to our main style of play (Deepstriking into enemy lines, ruin their day), and losing 'Objective Secured' doesn't mean anything because A: we have few Troops choices anyway and B: the enemy can't contest objectives if they're dead. 

[hendrik]

how does the nemesis strike force make us lose ojective secured? it's a detachement right, and not an unbound list?

[IndigoJack]

Because objective secured is a command benefit of the combined arms detachment/allied detachment. When we take the nemesis strike force detachment, we forgo objective secured for a chance at turn 1 deep strike

[Valerian]

how does the nemesis strike force make us lose ojective secured? it's a detachement right, and not an unbound list?

 

Hendrik, read this thread:  Creating Battleforged Armies.

 

V