How would you represent your Legion in a supplement?

[Sception]

 

 

 

 

Feel no Pain!!!! seriously why did SLAANESH GET THAT DAMNED ICON

 

oh, and lots of poisoned weapons

 

probably a way to get zombies without typhus

Thought feel no pain originally belonged to the berserkers?

 

yes but it is now a ddeathguard thing, see plague marines

 

 

Plague marines have their pain dulled by Nurgle; Noise Marines and 'zerkers both have their brains re-wired to experience pain as pleasure, and thousand sons have no bodies to feel pain in the first place.  Thematically, all cult units could reasonably have FNP.

 

 

Yeah, TS are just dust - you can't really hurt dust...

 

It'd be great to see that universally applied to Cult troops.

 

 

I'm not sure that's what I'd want to see - FNP is somewhat more broadly applied than I like in this game already.  That said, the thematic justification is certainly there, and would be especially useful if you wanted to consolidate the various cult marine entries into a single markable unit, or to turn cult status into an upgrade.

 

Like, 'cult marine' could grant fearless, fear, and feel no pain, and then the cults could be distinguished from each other by marks and mark-specific wargear options (chain axes, eldritch bolts, sonic weapons, plague knives).

 

Again, not the design path I would take, but certainly an option.

[Chaeron]

 

 

 

 

 

Feel no Pain!!!! seriously why did SLAANESH GET THAT DAMNED ICON

 

oh, and lots of poisoned weapons

 

probably a way to get zombies without typhus

Thought feel no pain originally belonged to the berserkers?

 

yes but it is now a ddeathguard thing, see plague marines

 

 

Plague marines have their pain dulled by Nurgle; Noise Marines and 'zerkers both have their brains re-wired to experience pain as pleasure, and thousand sons have no bodies to feel pain in the first place.  Thematically, all cult units could reasonably have FNP.

 

 

Yeah, TS are just dust - you can't really hurt dust...

 

It'd be great to see that universally applied to Cult troops.

 

 

I'm not sure that's what I'd want to see - FNP is somewhat more broadly applied than I like in this game already.  That said, the thematic justification is certainly there, and would be especially useful if you wanted to consolidate the various cult marine entries into a single markable unit, or to turn cult status into an upgrade.

 

Like, 'cult marine' could grant fearless, fear, and feel no pain, and then the cults could be distinguished from each other by marks and mark-specific wargear options (chain axes, eldritch bolts, sonic weapons, plague knives).

 

Again, not the design path I would take, but certainly an option.

 

 

Take it back to where it used to be - where is worked and you had that distinction!

 

Sorry, reminiscing about the earlier age... when things were good.

 

But yes, it did make them tangibly different and distinct - which really doesn't occur now.

[Sception]

I dont want to see a return to 3.5, myself. Under that system, there was no distinction between marks and cult status, and all the cults had very different gear, rules, stats, weapons and options, yet pretended to be the same units, resulting in considerable hassle and confusion, with one units rules and options being split up and hidden in as many as six or seven different locations in the book.

 

personally, were it up to me, i would keep cults as separate units, but put a bit more effort and creativity into their design, and reintroduce culr hqs and terminators.

[incinerator950]

Which won't happen for a long time.

[Artein]

Night Lords:

 

Mandatory VOTLW

No Variel and Decimus then?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Night Lords:

 

Mandatory VOTLW

No Variel and Decimus then?

Technically no Talos either since there are Renegades who have more years on him.

[MaliGn]

That's what puzzles me about the black legion supplement, it is acknowledged that they have built their numbers from a variety of sources including renegades and yet, they are all veterans of the long war. Is this handwaved because of black crusades or something?

[Kol Saresk]

I think so. Since the Black legion are pretty much the face of the Long War as well as its vanguard, I think it becomes a de facto thing that if they aren't already veterans, that will change soon. The problem is that fluff for the rule is meant to specifically denote veterans of the Heresy. Which makes it redundant.

[Quixus]

 

Night Lords:

 

Mandatory VOTLW

No Variel and Decimus then?

 

IIRC VotLW is assigned to the whole squad. So a couple of members might be new but the rest compensate for them.

 

 

Technically no Talos either since there are Renegades who have more years on him.

Huh? The Soul Hunter was already a marine when Curze let himself be assassinated. While there may be marines older than him Talos definitely lived through the entirety of the Long War.

[Sception]

Subjective years.  At the start of the NL trilogy, Soul Hunter had only experienced about 100 years of subjective time since the scouring.  There are living loyalist vets, not even dreadnoughts or chapter command, with as much combat experience as Talos had at the open of ADB's books, and certainly many post heresy chaos marines with much more.

 

Something that the NL trilogy really failed to capture in Hunter's encounter with the Despoiler was just how much more ancient the latter is in experienced time than the former.  By the time that encounter happened, Abaddon has almost certainly been fighting the Long War for 10 times or more the years that Talos had, simply going by the number and duration of the Crusades.  Talos was a child to him, a memory of a sort of creature he had once been, a broken, defeated, heretic struggling just to survive without any real reason to do so other than sheer bitterness.  A fragile, mortal state of being that Abaddon had already transcended by the end of the Legion wars.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Technically no Talos either since there are Renegades who have more years on him.

Huh? The Soul Hunter was already a marine when Curze let himself be assassinated. While there may be marines older than him Talos definitely lived through the entirety of the Long War.

 

Talos has only experienced four hundred years of the Long War. While he might be a veteran of the Horus Heresy, there are Renegades who have more experience fighting the Long War(the War that started with the First Black Crusade) than he does. By the rules definition, yes he is a VotLW. However, the fluff definition of the rule is a Veteran of the Heresy who has since been fighting the "Long" War. He hasn't fought the "Long" War. He's only been surviving for three hundred years of it. There aren't just Marines that are older, there are renegades who have lived longer and fought in more of it than he has who are not "Veterans" simply because they have not been around since the Heresy.

 

Which is why the fluff for the rule is redundant since all Black Legion are forced to have it and not all Black Legion are Veterans of the Heresy. In fact, what makes the Black Legion the Black Legion is the fact that most of their number wouldn't be veterans of the Heresy.

[AlanofAngels]

Yeah, arguably, Black Legion should be the only first founding legion that shouldn't have VotLW, being such an amalgum of warbands and marines, many of whom weren't present during the Heresy. Meanwhile, many other founding traitor legions don't have the means to create new marines (i.e. Talos' company) and thus are stuck with those bitter souls that witnessed the heresy firsthand. But, as some have mentioned, it is entirely possible for marines who were not alive during the heresy to have more experience than those who were, considering the time slow in the warp. And those marines might not share the bitterness as those Veterans of the Long War, which could arguably make them more or less valuable. 

[Sception]

Again, veteran of the long war is not 'veteran of the horus heresy', it's 'veteran of the long war', the war of chaos marines agains the Imperium, not the war of heretic marines against the emperor.  Vets isn't about saying a marine is old (and even if it were, due to subjective time shenanigans a great many post heresy marines - both loyalist and chaos - are 'older' than many heresy vets, Talos and his warband in particular haven't been fighting all that long in the grand scheme of things).  No, it's not about age, it's about commitment.  Commitment to tearing down the imperium, and in that the Black Legion reigns supreme.  Because when the Word Bearers are erecting monuments to the dark powers, the Black Legion is making war on the Imperium.  When the Emperor's Children and the World Eaters are tearing each other to pieces, the Black Legion is making war on the Imperium.  When the Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion are losing themselves in their own twisted schemes and conspiracies, the Black Legion is making war on the Imperium.  When the Death Guard and and Iron Warriors are bunkering down on their daemon worlds, the Black Legion is making war on the Imperium.  And when Night Lords and various other splinter warbands are struggling just to survive, the Black Legion is making war on the Imperium.

 

So yes, even if the Black Legion has more post heresy recruits than any of the heresy-era legions, to the point that it can't honestly be called a heresy-era legion at all, the Black Legion is still the Legion at the forefront of the Long War, and its fighters are the Long War's fiercest veterans.  The vet tax, annoying as it is (mostly for the poor pricing of the upgrade in the parent book to begin with), still makes as much sense if not more sense for the Black Legion than it makes for any other Chaos force.

[MaliGn]

I suppose even when the black legion are fighting battles against anyone other than the imperium it is all part of the long war with the imperium.

[incinerator950]

Zhufor killed a Black Legion commander during Vraks to force compliance of the csm Warbands during the campaign. The Black Legion is not a heresy legion, it's comprised of an enormous amount of Warbands both tiny and massive from Legion defectors, turned chapter renegades, and newly created marines in the Eye.

[Tenebris]

 

One of the greatest strengths of the Black Legion is that war holds no mystique to us. We fight because we have something worth fighting for, not because we strive in fevered contest for the promise of intangible glory beneath the eyes of the Gods. War is mundane to us. It is work. We have stripped it down to its bones, revealing it as nothing to fear and nothing to celebrate – it is simply our task, and one we must carry out with savage, veteran focus. The Black Legion’s martial virtues are not measured in how many skulls we take or how many worlds tremble at our name. Our pride lies in cold-blooded concentration, in ruthless efficiency, in winning every battle we can, no matter the cost. Moments of individual triumph and hot-blooded glory still exist – we are still post-human warriors and thus slaved to the vestiges of human emotion we carry – but they are secondary to the Legion’s aims. It is not about sacrificing emotion and vitality, but about harnessing them to a greater end. The Legion is all. What matters is winning. Through such loyalty and unity, we do the work of our Legion and the work of the Warmaster, not the work of the Pantheon. And after the battle? Let the Four Gods empower whomever they so choose. Let the Imperium demonise whomever among us that it wishes to curse. These concerns are for lesser men.

 

 

I have bookmarked every quote of import in Talon of Horus. This one explains a lot. 

[AlanofAngels]

If all Abaddon cares about is winning, he is 0 for 12 (maybe 1 for 13, depending on your view of the 13th crusade) Or does that belong in the legion trash-talking thread?

[Kol Saresk]

If all Abaddon cares about is winning, he is 0 for 12 (maybe 1 for 13, depending on your view of the 13th crusade) Or does that belong in the legion trash-talking thread?

I would suggest a reread of the Black Crusades. Very few of them is Abaddon actually beaten back. Many of them he gets what he wants and just leaves.

[AlanofAngels]

I would suggest a reread of the Black Crusades. Very few of them is Abaddon actually beaten back. Many of them he gets what he wants and just leaves.

Ruven? Is that you? True enough, I just question the Black Legion's aptitude sometimes. I am happy the way that Black Library authors have been taking them though, these days; away from the seemingly inept legion they were back in the day and in older fluff.

[Kol Saresk]

In the older fluff, the very First Black Crusade was Abaddon bursting from the Eye, claiming Drach'nyen and then leaving. And afterwards, the Emperor decides to militarize Cadia. Yeah, the fluff for the First Crusade is that old. That right there kills the 0-12 thing. The Failbaddon is entirely a community view arising from the more Imperial-oriented background stating that the Crusades were meant to break open Cadia. So of course logically, they were all failures since Cadia was never broken. But, even since the olden days of 2nd Edition, apparently that was not the case.

[Excessus]

He's been out and about without proper opposition several times. Mackan was where he slaughtered a ton of Blood Angels and denied them their geneseed, was it not?

[Gree]

I find it easier to simply brand Abaddon as a failure. He'll always be viewed as one by the greater 40k community after all, and nothing is really going to change that. People will always see Abaddon as a failure no matter how much GW tries to make him into this apocalyptic warlord.

 

**************

 

A Night Lords detachment requires Codex: Chaos Space Marines to play. It is chosen from that list with the following changes:

 

Sons of the Sunless World: Models with Veterans of the Long War also have the Fear and Night Vision Universal Special Rules.

 

We Have Come For You!: A Night Lords detachment may re-roll when determining Night Fight results.

 

Scions of Nostramo: Characters in a Night Lords detachment do not have to issue and accept challenges, although they may still roll on the Chaos Boon table as normal.

 

Warlord Traits:

1. Lord of Fear: Enemy units are at -1 Leadership against the Warlord.
2. Stealth Adept:Warlord and unit gain Shrouding during Night Fight.
3. Master of Deception: Infiltrate D3 Infantry units.
4. Communications Disruption:The enemy detachment must re-roll one successful Reserve roll per turn.
5. From the Shadows: Warlord and Unit gain the Hit and Run USR.
6. Prey on the Weak: Warlord and Unit re-roll dice when pursing a fleeing enemy unit in close combat..

 

I tried to keep it simple as in the supplements. You will notice that the supplements are generally as permissive as possible with units from the main Codex. Giving all models in a Night Lords army Fear and Night Vision was an obvious choice. It's always awkward that my Night Lords army on the tabletop doesn't have the Night Vision special rule until I roll well on a Warlord traits table.

 

Another thing is that Night Lords never fight fair, so the forced challenges thing doesn't make that much sense. Then again I also think Champions of Chaos is a badly designed special rule that really belongs in Warhammer Fantasy or in a World Eaters supplement.

 

I think alot of the Night Lords special rules don't translate well to the tabletop, or don't work that well against certain types of enemies. (Instilling fear in Tyranids for example). I didn't have time to think up Relics though.

[incinerator950]

They grafted new arms with additional plot armor to him.

[Paradigm]

I'm using my phone, so I don't now how to quote the mobile site, sorry.

 

The reason all the Legions should have mandatory VOTLW, isn't due entirely to a fluff perspective. VOTLW isn't really worth the points, but it does offset the bonuses that would be inherent in any Legionary warband. The lesser fluff justification is just due to the wealth of knowledge a majority of legionaries hold and would share by association with inductees into a 10k year old organization. It's true that for many legionary warbands, the members may know of the heresy only from distantly removed hearsay. However the fact is after 10k years their organization still exists, in some form, with the traditions, tactics, and creed (more or less) of their forbears. Thin blooded upstarts know nothing of the struggle and can not draw strength through its adversity. They have cast aside their sometimes long histories to begin again. The legions evolved into their current state. Renegade warbands usually don't last long enough to evolve into anything more than food for one of their cousins to absorb or destroy.

[incinerator950]

Actually I'm in agreement with Mal, and makes a nice Non vet Legionaire vibe.