How would you represent your Legion in a supplement?

[Sception]

If all Abaddon cares about is winning, he is 0 for 12 (maybe 1 for 13, depending on your view of the 13th crusade) Or does that belong in the legion trash-talking thread?

Most legions have participated in most of the black crusades. If that's how you measure success or failure, then the entire faction and every legion and commander in it are failures on exactly the same scale. The Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Night Lords fail to even exist as coherent forces. Do you want to point me to any of the grand victories of the other Legion Lords? Tell me, what territory has Peturabo conquered and held outside of the eye? When has the Daemon Lord Angron inflicted anything more than temporary inconvenience on an imperial system? For pete's sake, Angron took all the khornate daemons and legionnaires he could gather to Armageddon - not just one system but one planet, and not only was it still in imperial control when all was said and done, he didn't even rank as the greatest threat to imperial control that one planet had seen.

Chaos factions, and frankly non-imperial factions in general, simply are not allowed to have meaningful victories in 40k lore, and if you're going to let that define your opinion of Abaddon, well, fine, whatever. But as big a failure as you may consider Abaddon, he remains quite clearly the dominating personality and most powerful military force within the Eye, so however low you rate him keep in mind that you are by default rating any other original legion character even lower.

And frankly, if you're going to let internet memes decide your opinion of your army or its fluff, then you might as well cut off all your troopers with plastic toy kittens and all of your characters with spider man and deadpool action figures.

As for why Black Legion are fighting non-imperial factions ever, it's usually to secure a weapon, tool, or location with which to attack the imperium; or supporting another chaos faction in exchange for promises of support in the next black crusade; or when fighting against chaos a matter of crushing a chaos faction that had promised such support then failed to deliver. But yes, while individual black legion lords may have their own petty goals and ambitions, collectively everything they do is done with the Long War in mind.

[Loesh]

If all Abaddon cares about is winning, he is 0 for 12 (maybe 1 for 13, depending on your view of the 13th crusade) Or does that belong in the legion trash-talking thread?

Most legions have participated in most of the black crusades. If that's how you measure success or failure, then the entire faction and every legion and commander in it are failures on exactly the same scale. The Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, and Night Lords fail to even exist as coherent forces. Do you want to point me to any of the grand victories of the other Legion Lords? Tell me, what territory has Peturabo conquered and held outside of the eye? When has the Daemon Lord Angron inflicted anything more than temporary inconvenience on an imperial system? For pete's sake, Angron took all the khornate daemons and legionnaires he could gather to Armageddon - not just one system but one planet, and not only was it still in imperial control when all was said and done, he didn't even rank as the greatest threat to imperial control that one planet had seen.

While i'm not a fan of the 'Abaddon is a failure' Memes, I also take umbrage with this, as it's basically the same thing but directed at all the other traitor legions. Here's something the Emperors Children have been doing: Trolling the Iron Hands, and magnificently. Clan Raukaan was nearly annihilated by an extremely coordinated and organized Emperors Children attack that wiped out over half their soldiers, the Gaudian Heresy killed/corrupted a full third of the Iron Fathers to the point they were afraid the Inquisition might exterminate them, and Lucius the Eternal took over one of their Clan Champions and wiped out everyone onboard an Iron Hands ship....by himself.

During the Shattering HUNDREDS of Noise Marines got together and had some psykers cloak their fleet, they were able to get into the main Plaza of a major craftworld(Lugganath) and generate a psychic attack so strong with their combined weapons that it shattered the entire planets infrastructure, the Eldar had to resort to using forbidden ancient technology to keep the entire craftworld from exploding!

The Emperors Children may be a 'shattered' legion, but that doesn't mean they can't be a coherent enough force to kick some serious ass when the mood strikes them.

[AlanofAngels]

"Internet memes" deciding my opinion of an army or fluff?... I literally have no idea what you're talking about since there isn't a mention of a meme in my two sentence post that has prompted lengthy replies. I clearly intended it as a one-liner joke but people are taking it too seriously. 

 

And an argument can actually be made (since you brought it up) that most of the traitor legions are failures. Not just from an Imperial point of view (because clearly they think any traitor is a failure inherently) but many are bitter and upset that they have lost much of the heresy-era glory and are now relegated to the Eye of Terror much of the time. I mean, hell, many of the members of the traitor legions look around and are angry they are even in these situations: hating their brothers, losing their chances at glory, and many being relegated to piracy to survive. Whether or not we consider them failures is obviously a matter of opinion, but it seems obvious that there is a lot of bitterness and angst in the traitor legions at the fact that they failed during the heresy. Of course this is what makes them actually interesting characters, so I love it and their justifications for being why they are (arguably some of the better writing is about those justifications).   

 

I understand from a fluff perspective you can't shake up the universe in a way like WHFB has recently. I literally made a joke. Take it as such. 

[Sception]

"failbaddon" as a two line joke is an internet meme, and an annoying one that enshrines terrible old writing for just one character, when the same logic applies to the entire faction. More recent fluff has in general been better, though there are some spectacularly awful exceptions (the blasted pandorax novel was just abysmal). But it's been better for Abaddon as well.

 

You can say the Emperor's children have made a good showing in the recent Raukaan, and you know what, they have! But to say that makes Lucious a good character, but to simultaneously say that the Black Legion supplement fluff doesn't count when considering Abaddon is ridiculous. That's my entire point. Failbaddon only functions under a faulty logic that would leave every other chaos subfaction and character looking equally terrible were the same logic applied to them.

 

As for an end times shake up in 40k - it could certainly happen, in much the same style. There's just no reason for it right now - the setting could stand it just fine, but the game's sales aren't lagging in a way that would demand that sort of shake up.

[Loesh]

"failbaddon" as a two line joke is an internet meme, and an annoying one that enshrines terrible old writing for just one character, when the same logic applies to the entire faction. More recent fluff has in general been better, though there are some spectacularly awful exceptions (the blasted pandorax novel was just abysmal). But it's been better for Abaddon as well.

 

You can say the Emperor's children have made a good showing in the recent Raukaan, and you know what, they have! But to say that makes Lucious a good character, but to simultaneously say that the Black Legion supplement fluff doesn't count when considering Abaddon is ridiculous. That's my entire point. Failbaddon only functions under a faulty logic that would leave every other chaos subfaction and character looking equally terrible were the same logic applied to them.

 

As for an end times shake up in 40k - it could certainly happen, in much the same style. There's just no reason for it right now - the setting could stand it just fine, but the game's sales aren't lagging in a way that would demand that sort of shake up.

 

Of course, and I agree. I was taking offense that the Emperors Children 'weren't coherent' in particular rather then Abaddon not being a failure. Because I don't think he is really.

[incinerator950]

I sense that the jimmies of the BL fans have been ruffled.

[A D-B]

If all Abaddon cares about is winning, he is 0 for 12 (maybe 1 for 13, depending on your view of the 13th crusade) Or does that belong in the legion trash-talking thread?

I find it easier to simply brand Abaddon as a failure. He'll always be viewed as one by the greater 40k community after all, and nothing is really going to change that. People will always see Abaddon as a failure no matter how much GW tries to make him into this apocalyptic warlord.

I'm not sure I understand. You're smart guys. You don't really believe those things, right?

I'm not saying he's been universally well-handled, but the memes about him don't really have any basis in published material. They're largely fan assumption and "Al Gore invented the internet" nonsense - stuff never actually said, but taken and run with as memes to deride someone. If you go through Abaddon's lore, his competence isn't new or some magical retcon. He's pretty much always been the threat he is, especially in the 3.0 era of the masterful Codex Chaos, when many of the 'modern' ideas of Chaos Marines took shape under Andy Chambers.

Practically all of Abaddon's text has heralded him as the Arch Heretic and the apocalyptic 'event' for the Imperium. Funny memes and misunderstandings aside, that's just plain fact. On a general note, sometimes I see some of the people that bring up the meme, and I honestly wonder at their perspectives. The desperation to have it both ways. You can't acclaim 3rd edition as the greatest moment for Chaos ever, then insist Abaddon has always been a failure. That's when most of his primacy was established in the first place.

[A D-B]

I sense that the jimmies of the BL fans have been ruffled.

 

It's rustled. I can forgive you getting 40K lore wrong about Abaddon, but actual funny memes? No, sir.

[Loesh]

Pretty much, if you recall ADB when I initially argued against Abbadon in my early posts it was pretty much because I worried he might devour other legion themes. But i'v never seen Abaddon as a failure, while reading the Failbaddon article on 1d4chan might be good for a laugh, it's not remotely accurate in any capacity, and the Pandorax thing with the Red Corsairs I thought was pretty mishandled.

 

Since then i'v become a bit less wary of the Black Legion, while still by no means my favorite, it's easier to take when you view their diverse nature as a success of the other legions, rather then the now near extinct Sons of Horus usurping everyone elses themes. That very success in itself, that they can be so dangerous when working together, should also mean you can take the Mono-Warbands as a serious threat by extent.

[Slips]

Unless its for Tactica articles, I usually view 1d4chan as a comedy-filled retelling of the Fluff chock full of memes.

 

I mean, take the Khârn The Bloody Article. That thing is hilarious. But while some of the stories in there actually happened in the fluff, they aren't to be taken as the end-all interpretations.

 

And really, Failbaddon was created by people who felt that the guy they were rooting for --  the big bad guy, the one who shall bring ruin to the imperium -- were disappointed for whatever reason because he didn't succeed during the first black crusade.

 

He's the Antichrist of 40k. What would be more fitting for him to launch a truly successful black crusade than the 13th? That would be the 666th but realistically, we'll never get there.

[incinerator950]

Someone made a Warhammer 50k fanfiction. Sufficed to say I laughed when I read how many Black Crusades Abbadon were written in.

 

40K is better when you don't take it seriously.

[AlanofAngels]

If all Abaddon cares about is winning, he is 0 for 12 (maybe 1 for 13, depending on your view of the 13th crusade) Or does that belong in the legion trash-talking thread?

I find it easier to simply brand Abaddon as a failure. He'll always be viewed as one by the greater 40k community after all, and nothing is really going to change that. People will always see Abaddon as a failure no matter how much GW tries to make him into this apocalyptic warlord.

I'm not sure I understand. You're smart guys. You don't really believe those things, right?

I'm not saying he's been universally well-handled, but the memes about him don't really have any basis in published material. They're largely fan assumption and "Al Gore invented the internet" nonsense - stuff never actually said, but taken and run with as memes to deride someone. If you go through Abaddon's lore, his competence isn't new or some magical retcon. He's pretty much always been the threat he is, especially in the 3.0 era of the masterful Codex Chaos, when many of the 'modern' ideas of Chaos Marines took shape under Andy Chambers.

Practically all of Abaddon's text has heralded him as the Arch Heretic and the apocalyptic 'event' for the Imperium. Funny memes and misunderstandings aside, that's just plain fact. On a general note, sometimes I see some of the people that bring up the meme, and I honestly wonder at their perspectives. The desperation to have it both ways. You can't acclaim 3rd edition as the greatest moment for Chaos ever, then insist Abaddon has always been a failure. That's when most of his primacy was established in the first place.

No, like I've already said I was just kidding It was intended as a joke-laden ribbing of the Black Legion from a Night Lord's member. And (again) I wasn't referencing the "failbaddon meme."

Obviously with all this talk of a "victory" being so important to the Black Legion, it would have been prudent to define that term. To the Imperium, I'm am sure they felt much more could have been lost in any of the Black Crusades, so feel somewhat victorious. Yet, like all of the ardent Black Legion members have noted, Abaddon achieved his goals on multiple occasions, so they feel victorious. I'm not making a statement on either viewpoint (a joke on the one, yes).

Obviously it makes no sense to consider Abaddon an abstract failure; he has united the Forces of Chaos which is in and of itself a massive achievement (never mind your opinion on what he's done since).

So since everyone has their collective undies in a wad, I formally apologize for my oh-so-mean joke and two sentences regarding Abaddon. For the "most powerful" traitor legion, they sure seem to have thin skin.

Ave Dominus Nox.

[Gree]

I'm not sure I understand. You're smart guys. You don't really believe those things, right?

What I actually believe about Abaddon is rather irrelevant for me. It is the fandom's perception that concerns me. It is my recent epiphany as a hobbyist that the Abaddon and the Black Legion will generally be viewed as failures. Its just a very widespread and deep-rooted meme that has many years to ferment. And that's not going to go away. Alot of people actually take that ''Failbaddon'' meme seriously.

 

That might not be true at Bolter and Chainsword, but in my experience it's very prevalent everywhere else outside of the forum here. It was only until very recently that I understood that the Black Legion would always have that negative reputation among the more casual fanbase. In fact Wade Garrett of these very own forums helped convince me of that.

 

I had played Black Legion for many years and I've always tried to argue that Abaddon wasn't a failure and that the Black Legion weren't a band of failures. After a while I realized that people would always see Abaddon that way and didn't want to believe he was actually competent. I guess after a bit I got tired of of all the snide jokes. I found it easier to go with the flow after a bit and switch to my own DIY warband.

 

Now, I'm sure you are doing a great job with the Black Legion currently and I believe you to be an excellent writer. Everything I say is simply my own personal experience and opinion as a simple hobbyist. Nothing more. I don't expect anyone to agree with it.

[A D-B]

Gree, AoA - That was my bad. I'd never willingly speak to any human being with a straight face using the words "Hey, you're a smart guy, right?" Even I'm not that much of a colossal douche messiah.

 

The first line was sarcastic and backslapping "Hey, I know you guys" joking; I've seen your posts a billion times and I know you don't think that stuff. The rest was general observation and context, not specifically to you. Apologies for it coming across so po-faced, dudes.  

[Loesh]

I do find it a bit sad that some people will never get past the Failbaddon memes, but then again, I can understand why having it slammed in your face so often breaks people down.

 

If it were up to me, i'd prefer everyone in the Chaos Community exalt all the Chaos Legions because they are all special in their own way, even if I don't like the other eight legions I still see why people can find them cool. I think because so much fluff is devoted to Chaos infighting people get this 'My legion is better then your legion!' mentality and become upset Abaddon isn't a scion of their army, rather then a scion of all the armies.

[AlanofAngels]

@AD-B: No worries, man! I knew what you meant. I just didn't think my little one-liner would totally derail this thread the way it has. Lesson learned, I guess! Ironically, it was my own "hey I know you guys" feeling that led me to make the stupid joke in the first place

[incinerator950]

You're making me want to commission an expert painted Abbadon. Minus the arms of course.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

You're making me want to commission an expert painted Abbadon. Minus the arms of course.

TBF this thread is making me want to paint an abbadon I got in a job lot ages ago, would need to find his arms though, think I used his sword for a nurgle corrupted ultramarine years ago.

[Loesh]

You're making me want to commission an expert painted Abbadon. Minus the arms of course.

 

I don't know, I just think it'd make him badass if he could still be the melee monster he is while wielding Drach'nyen in his teeth.

[incinerator950]

No, a fork and knife. Until Draigo shows up anyway.

[Loesh]

No, a fork and knife. Until Draigo shows up anyway.

 

I get this image of a shrieking, armless Abaddon rushing on the field of battle, eyes bloodshot and bloated while his topknot waved in the wind. Fork and knife in teeth he seethes with a primal generic rage only matched by the Ultramarines. Rushing into the loyalist chapters he does sick backflips and judo kicks through the massed armies of the God Emperor of mankind, with a flick of his tongue the knife is launched into the eye of a living saint, causing her head to explode as the unholy utensil launches out of the back of her cranium. Rushing forward the amassed Space Marine chapters lob themselves at him in droves, the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands the first to fall to his dreaded 'fork-in-teeth-jitsu' for daring to be named after the limbs he can never have.

 

He stands over the growing massed bodies of the Imperium, the traitor legions have stopped fighting and now merely stand in awe of his might. Daemons begin to cluster around him in the Empryean devouring vast quantities of ethereal popcorn as the greatest threat the Imperium has ever known roundhouse kicks Dante so hard that not only his body destroyed, but so is his soul, completely erased from the immaterium.

 

"ENOUGH!" a voice calls from on high, and striding through the masses is a deep blue Ultramarine, his chapter symbol encrusted with priceless jewels and great golden dollar sign hanging from his neck, a red fedora on his head as he smokes a cigar. "OUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE!" every other chapter cries in unison, collapsing to their knees as they weep at the mere sight of him, even the Space Wolves and Black Templars, who proceed to grovel at his feet.

 

He looks between them, and then up to Abaddon "Today, I will do what Sigismund, Helbrecht, and Logan Grimnar could never do! I will END CHAOS FOREVA!" they looked up at him, eyes still stained with tears "4eva?" they whispered "5EVA!" and with that, empowered by Wardian Heresy, he launched into the air and began channeling a spirit bomb. Gritting his teeth, Abaddon used his only real limbs...the godlike legs he'd always relied upon, and launched himself into the air.

 

For seven days and seven nights the battle raged, vast swaths of the galaxy obliterated by their clashing Mary Stu might! stars died, worlds rose and fell, until finally Abaddons leg  came too hard and fast for even Ward to stop, with the Talon of Horus strapped to his boot he smashed off Calgars right arm, then his left, then both his legs "....You and me, we're not so different...." he said. and before Marneus could respond his neck was wrapped by an awesome topknot, and promptly snapped,

 

In the warp, the thirsting gods watched with interest.

 

Slaanesh: Like...dude...this is some good stuff, i'm like...seeing armless failures rampage across Cadia.

Nurgle: *Burps* That's just Abaddon, you know...the guy we gave all our power to?

Slaanesh: "....Horus?"

Nurgle: "No, Abaddon."

Slaanesh: "...Crull?"

Nurgle: "...What? No, that's not ev-"

Khorne: "Forget it, when Slaany is like this there's no talking to him...her...it....what gender are you?"

Slaanesh: "I don't know."

Tzeentch bursts through a nearby door: "JUST AS PLANNED!"

[Artein]

No, a fork and knife. Until Draigo shows up anyway.

Hey, a fork is a deadly weapon. Just ask Vulkan.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

 

No, a fork and knife. Until Draigo shows up anyway.

Hey, a fork is a deadly weapon. Just ask Vulkan.

 

let us not talk about that....

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

No, a fork and knife. Until Draigo shows up anyway.

Hey, a fork is a deadly weapon. Just ask Vulkan.

Quite possibly the only thing I smiled at in that book.