Brainstorming: 'Assault-based SW' or 'the Meta-Killer'

[Frater Cornelius]

Both TDA and GH did an average job. Nothing to write home about. I might work in another drop pod component. It will still be GH, because numbers are important, just a bit different strategy and/or loadout.

Shields are not required on TWC. I played Necrons. Where did you find any AP there? I got eaten by Tesla spam.

Buffing Claws is a bad idea because they would draw too much fire. The trick is that 5man melee TDA are easier forgotten about than TWC. With 10 TDA ther all will open fire and I will lose too many points in there, regardless whether TWC get touched or not. Shooty elements turn 1 are important.

[Jochteas]

Think 4 drop pods would be doable? I mean I assume the void claws help it out, but that's still chansy no?

[Frater Cornelius]

An even number of pods does not make sense since you will keep too many reserves. If there is one thing I learned it is that reserves are too slow for the high-end games today. They either need to drop T1 or to be very few and arrive T2 and be at full capacity (melee arrival at T2 is useless because of T3 charge). Anything else is too risky.

Three pods is the sweet spot. Two hard units T1 and a third support unit to reinforce any area. With Claws you technically have three pods T1. Any more will compromise the TWC too much.

[Jochteas]

That's what I thought, I guess I thought when you said another drop pod component, I assumed you meant another whole nother drop pod. What idea did you have in mind for the component?

[Frater Cornelius]

Downgrading TDA WG to PAWG to save points. Add a melee weapon to GH (probably a Fist to deal with Walkers/Chariots, not sure what though since it is expensive). Get TWC up to 5 members if I can. Not many changes, subtle ones that may have a big impact. I need to think about it.

 

Right now I will mainly focus on converting a Mech Jarl to try and convince a mod to allow me to open a Tau conversion thread to show how to make Space Wolves out of non-SW models and show off conversion ideas and methods and little painting tutorials on SW related stuff. Besides, who wouldn't like Heavy Metal Space Wolf Mechs with Big Guns doing Ragnarock'n'Roll!!

Some people actually want me to, so I got to get building :P

 

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[FenrisWolf]

I'd like to see that.  Hey Val!  Let him do it!

[Frater Cornelius]

As of right now I am not allowed. Totally understandable since they all get a bit jumpy when xenos are involved in any other way but being killed.

Which is why I have decided to finish my commander (at least convert him) and showcase him to show that he is as wolfy as the next guy.

 

If that won't help, I will be forced to make it off-site with a link in my sig, which is lame but better than nothing.

[Araenion]

Hey ho, Wolf Lords! My first post on B&C, and I made the account just for this thread. I'm really liking your collective ideas so far, and as an Eldar player since 4th and a relative newcomer to the Wolves (been playing loads on Vassal, though), I had to pitch in.

 

My list, after I get enough cash to buy all the models (have 6 TWC, 10 GH and a Stormwolf so far, the bunker I scratch-built) will go like this:

 

HQ:

Ulrik the Slayer - 145

WGBL: Thunderwolf, Runic armour, Wolf claw, Storm shield, Melta-bombs, 2 Fenrisian wolves - 181

 

Troops:

5 GH: Wolf Standard, 5x CCW - 105

Dedicated Stormwolf: 2x TLMM - 235

5 GH: Plasma gun, WGPL: Combi-plasma - 105

Dedicated Drop pod: Locator beacon - 45

10 GH: 2x Melta gun, 8x CCW - 176

Dedicated Drop pod: Deathwind launcher - 50

10 GH: 2x Melta gun, 9x CCW - 178

Dedicated Drop pod: Deathwind launcher - 50

 

Elites:

Lone Wolf - 20

2 Lone wolves: Terminator armour, Powerfist, Combi-plasma - 130

 

Fast attack:

6 TWC: 2x SS, 2x PF, WGPL: WC/SS - 355

 

Fortification:

Imperial bunker: Comms relay - 75

 

As you can see, this is a CAD list with 8 OBS units, because here, we almost exclusively play Maelstrom. The idea is this:

 

First turn, I deploy my TWC and the bunker. If I have first turn, I play aggresively and deploy close, if I'm second vs a gunline, I'll almost always play refused flank. 20 GH drop in close, as distraction for my TWC. I rolled it out a few times, 5 WS shooting almost always kill 1 TWC, 2 Wolves and leave my WGPL on 1 wound. Not bad, considering I lose about 120 points to a 1000 point of army's shooting.

 

Next turn, it starts raining wolves. Stormwolf chooses a flank and zooms there. Plasma hunters drop nearby and use their locator beacon to guide the LWs to safely land where I want them. Ulrik's PE bubble will give me 8 plasma shots, re-rolling 1's to hit and 1's to wound, plus two TLML, TL Helfrost and a TL LC (all of that re-rolling 1's to wound). After that, those LWs are tough little buggers and have 4 PF attacks (Wolf Standard) each. Perfect speedbumps. The trick here is synergy between podding, ground and air elements, ability to quickly reinforce flanks and 8 super-scoring unitsvto counter transports' ability to take objectives.

 

What do you think? Would this work in a competitive setting?

[Frater Cornelius]

Since you have 2 HQs already, why not go for the WUD and drop the bunker. Saves you 75 points with a similar effect (one automatic reserve instead of reroll). ObjSec ain't worth that much because most of the time people are going to clear the point they want to take to avoid losses.

 

I am sure it is just a typo, but just in case: you shoot with BS. WS has no effect on shooting what-so-ever.

 

I like how the banner is in a Stormwolf. That way you have a wider area of effect and more precise positioning. I might try that at some point.

 

But, and I am sorry to bust your bubble, it will not work in a competitive environment. It might very well fly on a smaller tournament and a local one. But I would advice against taking it to something bigger or a tournament that has many xenos.

I usually like to compare lists to my Tau Triptide list, because it is a tough nut to crack. Your lists shortcoming is having too many reserves for T2. Having 2 Pods T1 is fine. You may even keep the bunker to get some cover. But if there are drop pod Centurions dropping down or I open fire with my Crisis brigade, none of the TWC will be left standing. If you are lucky, 2 might survive it. There is just too much firepower concentrated on a single unit.

 

But the T2 reserves. Remember, if you are going second I get two shooting phases against you are your pods. I also have mentioned that melee based deep strikes are useless. Sure, Lone Wolves drop in and fire their plasma. What are they going to do, kill a model? You could have done it by adding an addition WG with a combi-plasma.

 

What I like is the T1 pods with DWL and the Banner+SW idea.

What I dislike is the low model count on the field top and bottom of T1.

What I hate is that too much is left in reserve. All but the closest games are decided around T2-T3, sometimes T4. Too many of your units will not make a difference given how many losses you will take in T1.

 

The verdict is that reserves are too slow for today's competitive setting. I suggest trying it against easier opponents first and see what has failed you, fix it and move up the difficulty.

[Jochteas]

Couple questions/critiques:

 

The 5 GHs with the Wolf Standard, are they in the Stormwolf? If not it will be forever for them to get to their they need to be, and if they are in the Stormwolf it seems they are gonna be away from the action on the zooming storm wolf. Why not put the wolf standard on the group with the Plasma shots to get more shots?

 

Locator beacons have to be down the turn before they work. So if you use it as a turn 2 drop pod, they won't be 'guiding' anything till turn 3.

 

I would also consider tweaking the TWC a little bit. Drop 1 TWC, drop the 2 power fists, drop the 20 point lone wolf, downgrade all your Deathwind launchers to normal, and drop the x5 CCW from the GH in the Storm wolf. This should be enough to net you 1 Iron Priest with 3 Cyber wolves. The Iron priest on a thunder wolf hits with 5 str 9 AP 1 attacks, that's enough to make a Land Raider nervous. On top of that he has an runic armor for a +2/++6 save and brings 3 Cyber wolves to basically eat wounds as TWC goes to deliver its hurt on what its attacking.

 

 

 

 

 

On a side note, question for Immersturm. Put Arjac or a Wolf priest with termie armor in with the Void claws? Both of them would up the durability (Arjac could tank hits with SS, Wolf priest has a better Invul save and gives the entire unit FNP 6,) and choppa (Arjac has the assault hammer, and well the normal hammer, and his shield grants him hammer of wrath, the Wolf Priest gives the entire unit Preferred Enemy and has stormbolter and Croz, not terrible weapons).

[Araenion]

WS = Wave Serpents. 5 Wave Serpents shooting at the squad (not counting the Shuriken cannon).

 

OBS is a big deal in my meta, that's why I won't go with a WUD.

 

You may be right on reserves. Though guaranteed reserves T2 are always how I beat the likes of Serpent spam and Triptide Tau with my CC-oriented Eldar (CC may be mispeading, my list has a ton of shooting and a few scalpel assault units, but 80% of the shooting is 12" range.).

[Araenion]

Ouch, I didn't realize that about the locator beacon. Will have to definitely rethink the support elements to the core.

[Frater Cornelius]

Couple questions/critiques:

 

The 5 GHs with the Wolf Standard, are they in the Stormwolf? If not it will be forever for them to get to their they need to be, and if they are in the Stormwolf it seems they are gonna be away from the action on the zooming storm wolf. Why not put the wolf standard on the group with the Plasma shots to get more shots?

 

Locator beacons have to be down the turn before they work. So if you use it as a turn 2 drop pod, they won't be 'guiding' anything till turn 3.

 

I would also consider tweaking the TWC a little bit. Drop 1 TWC, drop the 2 power fists, drop the 20 point lone wolf, downgrade all your Deathwind launchers to normal, and drop the x5 CCW from the GH in the Storm wolf. This should be enough to net you 1 Iron Priest with 3 Cyber wolves. The Iron priest on a thunder wolf hits with 5 str 9 AP 1 attacks, that's enough to make a Land Raider nervous. On top of that he has an runic armor for a +2/++6 save and brings 3 Cyber wolves to basically eat wounds as TWC goes to deliver its hurt on what its attacking.

 

 

 

 

 

On a side note, question for Immersturm. Put Arjac or a Wolf priest with termie armor in with the Void claws? Both of them would up the durability (Arjac could tank hits with SS, Wolf priest has a better Invul save and gives the entire unit FNP 6,) and choppa (Arjac has the assault hammer, and well the normal hammer, and his shield grants him hammer of wrath, the Wolf Priest gives the entire unit Preferred Enemy and has stormbolter and Croz, not terrible weapons).

 

Wolf Banner has no effect on shooting. The SW is fast enough to get 6" away from your units in melee. You measure 6" from it's nose. Next turn you hover anyway to let the GH out.

[Jochteas]

Edit: I learn something new every day.

 

Also would a Standard in the Storm wolf give the '6 inches' a much larger reach because essentially its 6 inches from around the Storm wolf? That could be nice.

 

 

My inquiry with the void claws stands :b

[Araenion]

Standard gives +1 attack to model profiles. Attacks have no bearing whatsoever on shooting. Otherwise, a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with a plasma gun would fire 5 times.

 

6" of both Ulrik and Standard measure from Stormwolf's hull, yes.

 

Thinking about replacing a few things to get some bikers with plasma in. They won't fire till T2, but then they'll be ablecto fire and charge in the same turn, both with PE.

[Frater Cornelius]

Standard gives +1 attack to model profiles. Attacks have no bearing whatsoever on shooting. Otherwise, a Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf with a plasma gun would fire 5 times.

 

6" of both Ulrik and Standard measure from Stormwolf's hull, yes.

 

Thinking about replacing a few things to get some bikers with plasma in. They won't fire till T2, but then they'll be ablecto fire and charge in the same turn, both with PE.

 

I do think we can figure that one out by ourselves :P

 

And the bikes are either BS3 or have combi-plasmas and will either die easily or be forced to jink, this negating their firepower.

[Hear da Lamentation]

I do hear you on this Immer, but why is it everyone keeps saying the bikers are so easy to kill with shooting?

They have the same toughness as a TWC and at 1 wound rather than 2 are only slightly higher that half the points.

If you give them SS as well they don't necessarily have to jink.

 

Ok the SS has to be bought at the same price as for a 2 wound TWC (which is a negative) but other than that they seem to me actually more durable because that can all jink if needed.

[Frater Cornelius]

Bikes do not have the numbers of GH and anything S6 or higher will wounds almost guaranteed. Given their lower numbers and the ability to spam S6/S7, they will die. Sure, Guardsmen might not be able to kill them as fast, but they aren't really an issue, are they.

TWC have a similar problem, but they are effectively cheaper because you get 2W for 40 (2 bikes would be 50) and they can get ablative wounds with an Iron Priest and his dogs without anyone hindering the mobility of the other and the ability to distribute wounds by abusing Lo,S. When a bike fails a save, it is gone.

Like TWC, you must commit to running bikes for them to be effective.

[Z00Z]

consistently, we noting that any force having lots of firepower effectively mitigates the advantages of TWC. You wont find an absolute perfect mix of perceived best or most effective units. We simply dont stand up to shooting armies and their bags of tricks. I'm proposing a different tact, and maybe a departure from trying to field the perceived 'best' units or formations in the codex only. 

 

We have cheap termies, with access to free 'SS'. Yes, they have only a single wound, but at entry pts, with the invul save they are going to be tough to get off the board easy. The issue is with TWC and bikes, their defence is their toughness. This isnt enough against high str armies. Fielding them with SS becomes expensive quickly. A turn 1 drop pod with 5 TDA SS will be difficult to dislodge, and the enemy will have no option but to focus on it, giving your true dmg dealers a chance to get across the field. Thats 180 odd pts with pod. We astartes, we supposed to be lower count but tougher units than xenos. I'm proposing trying that option.  

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, if you want to go down that route I can ease your spirit by giving you a tried and successful list that will even give my Tau a run for their money.

 

Any SW HQ, most commonly a Rune Priest ML2

 

2x10 GH

 

2 FA pods

 

Sentinels of Terra

 

Librarian HQ ML2

 

10 tacs in pod

 

Elite slot 3 grav cents with omniscope

 

Heavy Support slot 3 grav cents with omniscope

 

Go nuts with the last 400-ish points. Either get 2 more pods or fast capping stuff like scout bikes. If you are allowed to take Formations in top of allies you take Void Claws.

 

This is going to last until either SM get FA pods or BA will offer more on top of their pods when they release.

 

This is as good as Marine alpha strike gets. I do not like it though.

[Z00Z]

wait.....you misunderstanding me.

 

The thread is "assault-based SW"

 

I'm not looking for a 'cookie-cutter'  best of all codexes shenanigans. I merely asked the question if diverting attention from TWC and other hard-hitting units wouldnt be best served with looking at maybe more durable cheap 'SS' units. Of the games I've played agains Tau, and I'm using them as a baseline army excelling in shooting, my LW's tend to be my MVP. Their survivability is the key. Hence why I posed the question, shouldnt we look at TDA with free SS as a distraction and fire-magnet unit coming in turn 1 in the opponents face?

 

Heck put a heavy-flamer on one of the guys and force the opponent to give them some attention. This is just about increasing the survivability of the TWC and/or bike unit to get into CC as whole as possible. They not there to carry the game... 

[Hear da Lamentation]

I agree Z00Z.  In my main 1500point list, I had a unit of 5 wolfguard with combi plasma.  Talking this through with Littlbitz though, I assessed what the points difference would be for termies instead.

 

Combi's are only 5 points for a termie - and as you say they can get a free SS by swopping it for the power weapon.  So a unit of 5 termies with 5 combi plasma, 2 storm shields and 3 power axes is 50 points more than the basic WG equivalent (coming in a 225points). 

 

In my opinion, you get a hell of a lot for those 50 points.  2+ 5++, 2 lots of 3++ and 3 AP2 poweraxes.  The downside is you have to use a Fast Attack slot for the Drop pod because they dont get one as a dedicated transport.  But this allows shennanigans of dropping the pod empty if you need and deepstriking in the termies.

[Araenion]

That's not a bad idea at all. But that's 225 points that won't be on the table T1 and I think in a TWC list those points could be better spent elsewhere.

 

What I'm wonderimg about, after taking advice here to heart, is Wolves spam as support for TWC. List I'm thinking about:

 

Thunderwolf Lord: RA, PF/WC, Helm of Durfast, 2 Wolf-brothers

 

Canis Wolfborn (Jarl), 2 Wolf-brothers

 

10 GH: 2 Meltaguns, 10 CCW

Dedicated Drop pod: DWL

 

10 GH: 2 Meltaguns, 10 CCW

Dedicated Drop pod: DWL

 

5 GH: Wolf Standard, 5 CCW

Dedicated Stormwolf: 2 TLMM

 

5 BC

Dedicated Drop pod

 

5 TWC: 3 SS, 1 PF, 1 WC

 

15 Fenrisian wolves

 

11 Fenrisian wolves

 

Total: 1850

 

So T1, I have 30 Wolves, 7 TWC (and chars) and 20 MEQ on the table. Those 200 points of wolves give me a perfect bubblewrap vs pods and bikes alpha strike, a roadblock, and an absolutely killer unit that the enemy has to kill, otherwise he'll get pummeled by FC S5 wolves with each wolf having 4 attacks if in range of the Standard. By some loose calculations, each Serpent kills about 6 wolves, IF they discharge the shield. That would leave the TWC basically untouched, or it would mean the wolves are going on the rampage T2 if the opponent ignores them.

 

Canis has potentially 10 WS5 I5 S7 AP3 attacks, re-rolling hits and wounds on the charge. The Lord has 8 WS6 I5 S7 AP3 or S10 AP2 attacks, also re-rolling to hit and wound (WC only), if in range of the Standard. That's mean.

 

I'm still on the fence about whether guaranteed arrival of the Stormwolf is worth giving up OBS for. I guess it'd depend on the mission set on a given tourney.

[Jochteas]

Here is what I would change, Drop the fen wolves elements, you're investing roughly 400+ points in wolves and canis to make them decent and just kinda hoping they will do good. I think for the capacity you're looking and what you're wanting a void claw formation of termies would be better. Drop the wolves, drop Canis, drop the DML on the pods, and drop The one wolf claw on the TWC. You can then add 1 TWC with a SS and make it a full squad of 6 TWC and in place of the wolves you can deep strike in on turn 1 your Void claw formation with the points you'd have available you could afford 6 dual wolf claw WGTDA they also would all have WS 5. You could also afford to take Arjac with them, his 2+/3++ would be great tanking shots AND he can deliver some damage as well with the unit. Best of all the Void claws offer 2 really huge advantages. 1 They arrive by deepstrike turn 1 and reroll scatter die if they want, so your chances of getting positioning are much better with them and they automatically put pressure n your enemy. Also As long as just 1 model of the guys is alive then you reroll all your reserve rolls for your turn. Essentially greatly increasing the chance of your Storm wolf to arrive on the scene where you need him. So they would hit harder, put more pressure on them via deep striking in (essentially a free pod like), they are more accurate on the land, tougher to kill, and synergize well with your storm wolf reserve.

 

Edit:

 

With the 2 packs of wolves gone you could just buy the last Drop pod as a FA slot, not even need the blood claws, and have 60 points to mess around with. You could re-equip those Drop pods with DML and give a TWC a power weapon. You could give 3 TWC wolf claws, you could add 1 more to the void claws and have some left over still, you could increase your grey hunters in the storm wolf to 9 or what ever, there really is a lot of options for that 60 you could fool around with.

[Araenion]

That leaves me with only TWC on the top of T1. I don't like that at all. I do want to play with making a balanced, shooty GH/TDAWG list, but I'd like to keep this predominantly a high pressure list. 30 Wolves + Canis offers much better board control and are in fact much more dangerous with their T2 Fleet charge potential, and are much more of a throwaway, shoot-this-unit, kind of play. Thing is, even 5 Wolves with Canis will do a number on most things out there, with 15-20 S5 and 7-10 S7 AP3 attacks, all re-rolling to hit. And to kill 15 T4 models takes effort, as they'll pretty much always get their cover saves.