Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 You have not seen my Tau, buddy. I have convertes the living anime out of them. They are heavy metal vikings mixed with (StarCraft 2) Terran mech. All of them humans and all of them out to Ragnarok'n'Roll. After all this time you should know I wouldn't touch a filthy alien, suspect that I dislike anime (what a shock, I know) and that the first thing I would do when getting a Tau is convert it. And as for the 'win' part. Well.. yes. I kinda play tournaments to win. Otherwise it would defeat the point of the whole exercise. But :cuss it, back to the issue at hand. Tau ain't really a thing on this forum anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Understood Immer - and your tau sound brilliant (I'd love to see a picture). BUT, if you have armies (like Tau or Eldar) which are clearly a bit broken, you are never going to beat someone playing a "powerlist" with those armies without playing one of the same armies. Seems a little sad that everyone in a tournament needs to play 1 of 2 armies in order to stand a chance at winning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 Understood Immer - and your tau sound brilliant (I'd love to see a picture). BUT, if you have armies (like Tau or Eldar) which are clearly a bit broken, you are never going to beat someone playing a "powerlist" with those armies without playing one of the same armies. Seems a little sad that everyone in a tournament needs to play 1 of 2 armies in order to stand a chance at winning Tau is and will always stay my second army next to SW. I love mechs. I love heavy metal. They are always the guys I work on when I have nothing to work on. It really trains my conversion skills because making xenos actually look like heavy metal viking space wolve mechs is not that simple I have actually asked Valerian whether I am allowed to make a thread where I convert xenos models into full fledged space wolves without any resemblance to anything non Imperial. It can teach new guys a lot about conversions and the use of alternate models. It does involve xenos models though, and I have yet to get a reply from Valerian. There is also another reason why SW will actually stay my main army. Have you noticed how every 7th edition codex is gutting the armies? GK lost grenades and Inq, Deldar lost a lot, even SW lost plenty of upgrades like Wulfen. Necron will most likely lose Mind Shackle Scarabs. This confirms rumour that GW is working to stop the codex creep by toning down the codecies. Following that, guess what happens to Tau and Eldar when they get their turn. I am actually very pleased with the SW codex and I am still discovering new stuff every day. Tau are just my flavour army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Tau are just my flavour army I guess you could say they are Tau-tly awesome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 Tau are just my flavour army I guess you could say they are Tau-tly awesome? They aren't even Tau. They are humans D: And why do you do this to me all the time By the way, what is your opinion on Voidclaws? They do choppa, they get there T1 and reroll scatter. They are a decent distraction that won't die to 1 unit most of the time. Maybe toss in Murderfang in a Murderpod in there? Opinions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 And why do you do this to me all the time Because its my super power, terrible, terrible jokes. By the way, what is your opinion on Voidclaws? They do choppa, they get there T1 and reroll scatter. They are a decent distraction that won't die to 1 unit most of the time. Maybe toss in Murderfang in a Murderpod in there? Opinions! (Again I' Like my Fluff) But I was thinking about it the other day (I commented on another thread about it actually) you'd need drop pod to get Murderfang down their, but Voidclaws bring ~ a lot~ of hurt (if they could get in range of Wave Serpents, 'melee' seems to be its biggest weakness). Of Course the Problem was always focus Fire, Now drop Muderfang and a group of voidclaws in the back field and suddenly 2 units are running around with their blender set to Liquefy. Which now means their are 2 big targets needed to be taken care of, both of which are potentially devastating in the back field plus 2 vindicators, you could field something like.... (Forgive Me I can't figure out how to do Spoilers) 1 Herald, 2 Wolves 1 Iron Priest, 4 Cyber Wolves 1 Iron Priest, 4 Cyber Wolves 6 Thunder Wolves, 2 SS, 1 Power Axe, 2 Meta Bombs 6 Thunder Wolves, 2 SS, 1 Power Axe, 3 Meta Bombs 2 Vindicators, Siege Shield 1 Void Claw Formation, 6 Units 1 Murderfang, Drop Pod. Vindicators, Void Claws, and Murderfangs are Pretty much Can't ignore Targets. The 2 Giant Units of 7+ Thunderwolf Riders is almost an afterthought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 Hm, you got the exact list I was going to propose, only instead of Vindicators I went for 2*4 TWC and 2 more pods with 10 GH each. List: WGBL • SS, RA, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth • 2 Hounds Iron Priest • TWM • 4 Cyber Dogs Iron Priest • TWM • 4 Cyber Dogs Murderfang/BlizzDread/Björn (at the cost of Fenrisian Wolves and pet dogs of the WGBL) • Murderpod 10 Grey Hunters • 2 Plasmas • Pod 10 Grey Hunters • 2 Meltas • Pod 4 TWC • 2 SS, Thunderhammer 4 TWC • 2 SS, Thunderhammer 8 Fenrisian Wolves Formation: Void Claws 5 TDA • 5 Pair of Wolf Claws Why did I go for Hammers this time around? Because killing a Wraithknight in 1 turn is impossible. The WK has 4 attacks S10 at I5. Hammer knocks him down to I1. There is also a GK variant: WGBL • SS, RA, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth • 2 Hounds Iron Priest • TWM • 4 Cyber Dogs Iron Priest • TWM • 4 Cyber Dogs 4 TWC • 2 SS, Power Axe 4 TWC • 2 SS, Power Axe Drop Pod • Deathwind-Launcher Brother-Captain Stern 10 Grey Knight Strikes • 2 Incinerators Nemesis Dreadknight • Heavy Incinerator, Heavy Psycannon, Sword, Teleporter Formation: Void Claws 5 TDA • 5 Pair of Wolf Claws This one has 10 less PA Marines, one more HQ and trades Fenrisian Wolves + Murderfang for a NDK (who is superior). The trick here is that Stern arrives turn 1 with the Claws. He himself has 2+/4++ and knows both Sanctuary and Hammerhand. So he can boost himself to 3++ and the TDA to 4++. He can also give them +2S, making them WS5 S7 Shred with 4 attacks each. Bye Wraithknight. Stern can also reroll EVERYTHING he likes, but he gives the opponent the opportunity to reroll that many things later in the game. So he can basically forever tank all shots for the claws. I mean, what is the opponent going to reroll? Hits? Almost everything Tau, Necrons or Eldar have is twin-linked anyway. Reroll wounds? Most of their stuff wounds on 2s. Reroll armour or cover saves? I ignore most. Ignore Invul saves? Close to no xeno has anything of note. The NDK does his thing. He is superior to Murderfang in any imaginable way. The strikes will enter the pod and combat squad. That way they can not die to 1 unit and they give me 1 more warp charge to play with. This list has all pressure turn 1, no reserves left. This can be good (more pressure) but also bad (turn 2 reinforcement where you need them is always handy). I have less board presence but tougher units. Strikes have less ranged output but way better melee output. So, what do you think is the superior list. SW+GK? SW with GH pods or SW with Vindicators (as mentioned by Jochteas)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I don't know, what are you going to do with the 8 Fen wolves? Without Herald they lose some luster, and 8, even with the WGBL 10 would not be a lot. Also what are you going to do pods? Keep one GH till turn 2? That's almost 200 points just doing nothing on an aggressive list. You could maybe turn it into a suicide WG pod and then basically drop it where you need it after the dust of turn 1/2/3 settles (depending on when you get it) save yourself some points, and us that towards more wolves or sack the wolves make the TWC groups 5, or add more void claws. IDK, the more I read about Vindicators, the more I think 2 coupled with the void claws/Murderfang would be a really great distraction ~and~ has the possibility of really dropping some dudes. Starting the game with 6 different (Void Claws, Murder Fang, Vindicators 1, Vindicator 2, TWC group 1, TWC Group 2) but important targets really spreads out the range Saturation of enemy, and the Vindicators can basically cover what the TWC can't get. If their is a unit far away that would be really hard to get, Vindicators essentially Fire away, or the enemy tries to target them in which case typically they have AV 13, and are pulling agro which is exactly what you wanted to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irwit Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I think voidclaws and a single pod can work but vindicators??? Firstly they give your opponents antitank something to fire at. Secondly no ones moving into range of them turn one so it inhibits your opponent coming toward your TWC. Finally lets say the vindicators DO survive and the DO get in range, you really want to risk one of the few weapons that can instant death your TWC with that big pie plate that easily scatters, anywhere near your TWC which will of shot up the board as quickly as the vindicator? Voidclaws and a single drop pod work because they are both arrive turn one safey. The voidclaws, IMO, will need a character to tank so wounds and everything will run away from them. Helps you move your opponent towards your TWC maybe? Same with Murderfang. I would say a normal dread is better though as you can shoot and are just as much a threat as murderfang in all honesty but a lot cheaper. Heavy Flamer and mutimelta to maybe pop and transport seems to make most sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 So what you are saying is that the SW+GK version is superior at the moment? I would even consider getting a BlizzDread there as opposed to Fang, since he can take some more abuse. 10 GH turn 2 (I get to reroll reserves if 1 voidclaw still lives) is very nice to respond to areas where there is trouble. For example an exposed rear end of a Barge or Serpent. Stern is a great character to tank for Claws. I could add a TDA Lord/WGBL or even Wolf Priest, but they are not nearly as cost effective. As for claws themselves. They have a 13" threat range given an average charge. A Serpent can move 12" and shoot, most others only 6". Given that there are GH/Strikes and a Dread/NDK they will have very limited escape routes. Hell, I could actually go down the TROLOLOL route and put Björn in the pod and drop the Fenrisian Wolves for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 If you can with your GH list, maybe find 25 points somewhere? Giving the round 1 GH a Wolf Standard if you pod anywhere near the Void Claws could give that unit and your GH +1 attack. Really packing in that turn 1 punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 That's an idea. What is the general opinion about those lists though? Update: WGBL • SS, RA, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth Iron Priest • TWM • 4 Cyber Dogs Iron Priest • TWM • 4 Cyber Dogs 5 Wolf Guard TDA • 4 Combi-Plasmas, Assault Cannon 10 Grey Hunters • 2 Meltas • Pod 10 Grey Hunters • 2 Meltas • Pod • Wolf Standard 4 TWC • 2 SS, Power Fist 4 TWC • 2 SS, Power Fist Drop Pod Formation: Void Claws 5 TDA • 5 Pair of Wolf Claws Playing a regular Dread would be too weak and Björn too expensive. I have decided to bring a Plasma-bomb in a pod. I could've gone for more PAWG, but TDA offer greater survivability (same as a TWC against most shots, superior against S7 AP3+ and better against Plasma) and they bring a heavy weapon, which is nice. I considered making it a Heavy Flamer, but thought Assault Cannon might be better. Reduced Hammers to Fists on TWC for that. So basically we have TWC moving + running, Void Claws coming down turn 1 with the non-banner GH and the Plasma-TDA. Banner comes down turn 2 to solidify the assault or simply to blow up something. How do you think does the updated list measure up against the SW+GK list in this post: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/?p=3830068 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear da Lamentation Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 I have to be honest, I don't understand the benefit of void claws against shooty armies (which is the point??). Aren't they going to come on, nicely bunched, so the enemy can hit them all with an AP2 pie plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 No, they run after they deep strike. They are another unit that gets there turn 1 without hindering drop pod assault. Most shooty armies will not get outside of their threat range without sacrificing their shooting and they build pressure and draw fire. The only pie plate that is dangerous for them is the Riptide, but if he uses it, he won't fire next turn and he won't kill them all with one pie plate anyway. When facing Triptide, preventing the tides from shooting is actually very good. Most likely he will use his intercept to stop my shooty units, which will cost him all 3 pie plates (which won't be enough most of the time due positioning in the movement phase). If he goes for my Claws, he will lose a lot of suits afterwards. All while TWC runs along unscratched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisWolf Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 This sounds like a good option then. Synergy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 I want to try either of them tomorrow. I am not sure though, which one. The GK version or the pure version. Probably the pure one, it has more bodies and more dakka on the first turn and much greater pressure. Are there any suggestions on how to possibly change up the latest version of the pure list? Maybe a tanking character for the Void Claws? COF has that nifty little TDA relic. There is also Arjac. Or you think it is fine the way it is? I am also considering to enhance the alpha strike effect with Ulrik. Although it is fairly risky since it is likely that I will lose him after he lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulOfDragnsFire Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 How do you feel the void claws on turn one measure up points-to-army against normal termies with an assault cannon in a ThunderCav based list? Basically, which provides better support or bang for their point value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 Void Claws arrive turn 1 guaranteed and re-roll scatter. Regular TDA require a drop pod, thus sacrificing a valuable FA slot, which needs to be taken by TWC. If you have them deep strike, they need to roll for reserves starting turn 2 (which means they may very well arrive turn 3) and do scatter regularly. So yeah, I prefer Void Claws because the pressure is that much greater and guaranteed. You have access to other forms of shooting turn 1, so it does not matter that they are pure melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Honestly I like it, I hope you take it out and it does well, Just one question though, what power weapon do you have on your Termies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 Axes, most of the time. I have 'em modelled that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Jbickb Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I go about 50-50 aces a swords Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 I have tried the list variant against Necrons. It went well. First off, I have tried something with pods and Long Fangs, weak as hell. The high pressure list with Void Claws wasn't half bad. Still a loss though, but it could've been the other way very easily. Considering the power level of Necros compared to SW, that ain't bad at all. A small disclaimer: I am completely at peace that right now SW will not be able to stand up in the top 10 on a GT (like German Open or your usual Adepticon, NOVA, FOB and the others). I have done enough games against top tourney players to realize that. But they are damn fun to play and I will still be whipping them out when playing smaller, less competitive tournaments or local leagues. If I go there, I want to shoot for Top 10 to 5 and I will be using my Tau for it.. which are in fact non-Marine Space Wolves in mech suits, so it's all good. I am still wolfing ;) So no, this will not hinder my activity here in any way :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I've literally been waiting for this post. So you tried the Voidclaw route ? how did it go, historically you haven't been happy with the list you've tried so I'm kinda excited if you like this list. What was the good/bad? What needs adjusted? How did void claws do? How did having only 2 TWC stars go, Did the Banner on the GH make a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 GH Banner didn't make any difference. If you have to choose between positioning to kill or for banner, you always go kill. The Void Claws, well, he did a mistake. He chose to ignore them because they have no dakka. Only a few units shot at them and killed 2 of them. Next turn they clawed their way through an annihilation barge. After that they drew more fire. I find 2 TWC + 2 IP very risky. They go down like your mom in Richard Branson's car, so you need to be careful. This is what lost me the game. Too much combined fire brought them down fast. But of cause I was extremely unlucky with saves (again, I know) and it could've been the other way. But in the end, having to make those saves in the first place is a weak point of this list and ultimately the reason why SW have such a hard time. This list does not have much above the other ones with GK or SW. What is does have is fun. Void Claws are fun to play with. While I am not completely happy with the setup, I do think that this is a good step in the right direction and I will certain work on it some more to attend those aforementioned smaller tourneys. To sum it up: The Good • Void Claws are fun. • Good T1 pressure. • Forces the opponent to choose between 2 evils (Claws or TWC) The Bad • Not enough TWC • TDA are too expensive • Banner was useless The Ugly • I have tried Long Fangs instead of Void Claws but discovered that backfield elements are pointless in an advancing list. They get eating by flanking units and do not build pressure. What the next step is • Rework the Drop Pod components • Work in tougher TWC (this does not necessarily mean more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 What about the Other WGTDA with the Dakka where they useful? Should maybe one of the GH pods be removed and the Void claws bolstered to 10 man? Maybe more shielded TWC since their are fewer of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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