Brainstorming: 'Assault-based SW' or 'the Meta-Killer'

[Jochteas]

The Voidclaws will be down on the field turn 1 and will last longer, and make the stormwolf arrival almost a sure thing. Also TWC are still a much better target then the wolves and without Harald the Wolves LD score could see them turning and running before they do anything significant to speak off. You could go a middle ground though. Drop Arjac, and 1 voidclaw, and the TWC with SS, add back in Canis with a pack of 11 wolves. That would give 2 targets at the top of turn 1 to shoot at, enough ablative wounds that Canis shouldn't be gunned down T1, the Voidclaw pack strike where needed for more pressure, and the better reserve roll for the stormwolf.

[Araenion]

Wolves are LD9 with Stubborn since Canis is my Warlord. As someone playing Eldar, largely a LD 9 army, my Aspects rarely, if ever, fall back. Void Claws do look interesting on paper, though.

[Hear da Lamentation]

That's not a bad idea at all. But that's 225 points that won't be on the table T1 and I think in a TWC list those points could be better spent elsewhere.

 

 

With their DP - they will be down turn 1.  But not until your round admittedly.

[Frater Cornelius]

So, university started again and I had some things to take my mind of 40k list building for a while. I had some time to play my Tau though. It was fun. I only had 2 Riptides available but it was faceroll nonetheless. Then the pre-patch of Warlord of Draenor (WoW) came out and I played my hunter. It was fun as well. Keeping range and gunning enemies down can be quite fun.

But then I wanted to try out my Fury Warrior. :cuss yeah. There is just something quintessential about smashing other players into a bloody pulp with a pair of big hammers. And at that point I also put Tau back on my workbench and made room again to work on and carry with me my Space Wolves. I just can not get away from it. Just like my WoW Hunter will never replace my Warrior.

 

So yeah, back to smashing things with the best of it.

 

I had a bit of time to think about my previous attempts and digest the info. I have come to several conclusions.

First, I put too much burden onto my TWC. They are a great unit. But when you plan to kill the entire army with them and only include other units to make sure that the TWC does, but which are incapable of dealing enough damage on their own, a half-competent player will see through it and blast the TWC away with focused fire. That is what happened to me.

The second thing has also to do with how many points I put into TWC and Wolves. FW come on TDA bases and TWC on Dreadnought bases. They are not exactly small. Assault units need to position themselves defensively and avoid ranged fire. When your entire board is over-saturated with TWC, you can not position them well and bull-rushing the enemy is the only option, at which point they all die due to being exposed to fire.

And lastly, a thing that Jochteas brought to my attention recently, that I do not think SW can function to their fullest potential without allies. I mean, there is a reason why Xenos have no allies and Imperium has loads. A Tau and Eldar force can function on their own while SM chapters usually do one thing very well. SW are all about assault. We get more special melee weapons, hidden weapons, killers HQ chars, TWC, Wolves, multiple HQs per detachment. Our shooting is very mediocre compared to our melee. UM do shooting best with Tigurius and Chapter Tactic. IH do mech best. IF do tank-hunting best. WS do monster-/elite-hunting best. See what I am getting at? I simply do not think a competitive Imperial list can exist without allies.

I also noticed that I did not really have a proper battle-plan when making my list, only a general strategy.

 

So, for future lists I will keep the following in mind:

1) Less points spent on TWC. They must do what they do best, not everything. Melee must be supplemented with shooting. There is things that ranged kills better than melee and vice versa. I must play to their strength. They must be a part of a list, not THE main part of it.

2) I will consider SM allies more readily when there is one thing they do better than any given SW unit.

3) I will post a battle-plan with every new list.

 

I consider the following allies:

1) Clan Raukaan for their Chapter Master and Centurions.

2) Sentinels of Terra for 2 units of Centurions.

3) White Scars for bike and grav support.

 

I am leaning mostly towards WS. They fit my 'Fast and Furious' play-style and they can deal with things I do not want in melee, meaning MCs (Wraithknights and Dradknights will kill too many TWC before they die) and Elite units (which are easier to gun down). WS can not deal with hordes and jinking vehicles very well. This is where SW come in with TWC having a lot of attacks to kill hordes and ignore jink in melee. Seems like a good match.

[FenrisWolf]

I think you put your finger right on it, Immersturm.  We are the Armies of the Imperium.  Each codex is like a Force Org slot and battlefield role expanded out into a full army.   This can be deceptive as we are trying to make our specialists generalists.  As you say, SW are the Elite melee shock troops.  So the armies of the Astartes and the Imperium in general are designed to go together.  Kind of like (gasp!) Chaos.  They're stronger "united", just as the Astartes are stronger united and each playing their role.

[Jochteas]

If I may add, just a touch more fluff wise. Tournaments, especially the biggest hardest ones, are representative of the largest battles and most climactic events in the Imperium they are titanic events that are supposed to be the end of whole plants/systems. Very very rarely in the history is it ever just 1 marine chapter vs Xenos enemy number 4391, I mean sometimes sure in 'smaller' skirmishes/battles/fights But those are greatly represented by local small tournaments and friendly matches, which often can be just 1 group or another group. I mean look at the Space Marine list from major engagements, you'll get 2-6 chapters typically pitching in. Sometimes I think they prefer it that way.

 

Imagine a line of Ultramines, now they are Dakka' Dakka'ing the orks, and they see thunder wolves ride out past them, they think "Damn idiots why aren't they standing back and shooting?" Meanwhile the space wolves are like "Damn idiots why are they standing back and shooting?" then 15 gore filled minutes later in a bloody battle that sounds more like a cannibalcorpse song then a battle the Space wolves are tearing through the orks and the ultramarine are like "wow holy crap." Meanwhile the Thunder wolves who are gutting the orks notice just the massive number of falling orks to dakka and how the Ultras are shooting orks off their backs and letting them do their jobs and are like "Wow holy crap". As the waaaargh! Silences the Space wolves ride back, the orks are all dead, the space wolves ride back past the Ultramarines, the Ultras lower their guns and nod approvingly to the space wolves. The Space wolves commander nods back, then grabs an orks head from his side with a massive hole in his right eye, and helmet bearing the mark of some orks warleader, he tosses it to the Ultra, 'This one was yours. Nice shot"

 

 

 

-Edit; I really wanted to do a "heeeeeeey man, nice shot!" joke, but I decided to Filter that out.

[Frater Cornelius]

Forging a narrative :D

[Jochteas]

Anything to take my mind off putting together these ing pods.

[Frater Cornelius]

I feel ya. Pods are a pain.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

What about adding in a couple of Knights? They can keep pace with the TWC, can shoot and assault and have to be dealt with or else they will hurt you. I really enjoyed playing with my knights in the March of the Ancients list.

[Frater Cornelius]

We had that subject a few times before. As of right now many tournaments ban super-heavies. I do have an Errant Knight/Gerantius, which I get out whenever possible. I just do not like basing a list on something that I will not be able to use half the time.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Knights .... Schmights

"Let's not to go Camelot. 'tis a silly place"

Just a thought Immer - as you love your Tau-Wolves and Space Wolves ... why dont you try and mix the 2 together? Is the lack of battle brothers such a bad thing?

[MustangTC]

Anyone thought about the imperial knight supporting a thunderwolf charge? Moves 12", big gun to open transports on the way in, epic cc, TWC would provide cover to no shielded sides, would attract high strength anti-tank guns from the TWC lessening their need for SS.

[Jochteas]

Anyone thought about the imperial knight supporting a thunderwolf charge? Moves 12", big gun to open transports on the way in, epic cc, TWC would provide cover to no shielded sides, would attract high strength anti-tank guns from the TWC lessening their need for SS.

I think this is exactly what Wulfgar Hammerfist and Immersturm where talking about.

[Frater Cornelius]

Nah. While Tau SW could make decent allies, the fact that one of them must be an allied detachment hurts. To play Tau effectively you want Farsight Enclave, at least 3 Troops and at least 2 Elite slots, even as allies due to their low costs.

 

I consider White Scars a better pick in almost every respect.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, listen up folks!

Here is my most recent list. I decided to combine Space Wolves with White Scars. The result?

http://i.imgur.com/Cs0iWh2.jpg

Oh, and this list:

Wolf Lord (That's right, the Jarl is back! HEAVY METAL TIME!!! \m/)

• RA, SS, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 3 Cyber Wolves

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 3 Cyber Wolves

4 TWC

• 1 SS, 1 Power Axe

4 TWC

• 1 SS, 1 Power Axe

Drop Pod

• Storm Bolter

Kor'sarro Khan

Command Squad

• Bikes, 4 Grav-Guns, Apothecary

5 WS Bikers

• 2 Grav-Guns

5 WS Bikers

• 2 Grav-Guns

3 Centurions

• 3 Grav-Cannons, Grav-Amp, Omniscope

1850 on the nose.

Reasoning:

The first thing you may have noticed that I got back the ÜBERZOMFGTROLOLOL:cussBBQ Jarl instead of my usual WGBL or Harald. Why did I invest the extra points? For one, he will resume his role as solo melee powerhouse to take one entire unit on his own. The WS6 is paramount for that since many elite units run around with WS5. His second and new function will be tanking.... bear with me, I have thought this through for a change.

I have included the WS Command Squad. In itself, the unit is very threatening. But what happens when you attach Jarl and both IP there? You get a wall of death that moves 12" and shoots like Orks on crack. But it can also take loads of abuse. The Lord rocks in at 2+/3++ 5+FNP and with 6 ablative wounds (the dogs) which sport a 4+ and 5+FNP. Unlike other stars I made, this unit can take a lot of shooting. This is good because it turns into a no-win situation. Do I shoot the fat star over there? Or rather the TWC and Bikers? Or the Centurions? Probably he will occupy the Centurions and pour shots into the star and the TWC will maul him in melee. But more on that later.

The Jarl's Warlord Traits also come in very handy here. He can re-roll a single saving throw every player turn. Great for being a tank. He can get Fearless for him and his unit. Great, that way I will not lose distance when all Cyber Wolfs die. He can get Preferred Enemy (Everything). Would you like to be shot with 12 grav shots that re-roll 1s to hit and wound? I thought not

The TWC is missing a SS and sports an axe now. Why? Because I can! And also because their job description has changed. They are there to hunt jinking skimmers and infantry. They need the extra attacks and their low cost means that losing them will be no biggy. Most people will shoot the scouting bikes and the CS or Centurions. The TWC are rather low profile in this list, but still extremely deadly. I have noticed that they do not die to AP2 nearly as often so I dropped a shield. They are also not going to engage MCs anymore. That is the WS job.

I feel that the rest is fairly self explanatory.

Tactics:

If I go first I deploy everything, probably everything solo, except Khan and Jarl, who will ride with CS. Bikes Scout and Cents drop and remove the biggest threat to the TWC and CS. That will usually mean MC, War Walkers, Annihilator Barges and things like that. It is not necessary for them to make their points back. I am perfectly happy to use the Centurion unit to kill War Walkers just to avoid that spamy shooting that kills my TWC.

If I go second I will outflank both WS bike units, deploy defensively with TWC. IP, Jarl, Khan and CS deploy together to get the mega unit going that can pretty much weather most. Flanking bikes will bring in a nice surprise turn 2 when TWC are about to charge. It also minimizes the damage from alpha strike. If he kills my TWC, the star will split and kill the alpha strike. If he wastes shots on the star, the TWC will take him on.

Turn 1 belongs to the bikes and Cents. TWC will try to score or get victory points otherwise. Turn 2 is the TWC turn. Bikes may also assault to make use of their S5 HoW (WS Chapter Tactic).

Notice that Hit and Run is very flexible and spread across the army. Khan can join TWC units for them to HaR, IP and Jarl can join WS bikes or CS to get it. That way I can get out in my turn (usually on a 5 or less, which is great) and charge another unit if needed.

Verdict:

I feel this list is very flexible in its approach. Every unit has their job. I did not shoe-horn the TWC into roles they do not do that well (killing MCs and super elite units like Paladins and Wraiths).

I can deploy defensively with outflanking ranged bikes and a star or offensively with scouting move and full on pressure. It can also bait intercept with Centurions. If they land in cover, it will be just amazing. The high amount of Grav should deal with any MC very quickly while the TWC can handle jinking tanks and infantry.

What I do not like about it is that WS take up 45% of the list. While that is not a big deal if it makes the list better, but I am worried that the next SM update will remove bike troops and instead adds a WS FOC that has FA as mandatory. If the tournament do not start allowing 2 full detachments instead of 1 full and 1 allied until that point, the idea will take a hit.

Anyway, let me know what you think. Good stuff? Garbage? Also, if you want to suggest different allies for other cheesy combos, please do. Just explain your reasoning if you do

[Jochteas]

Would you give the Power Axes to the SS units that way you get +1 attacks?

[Frater Cornelius]

No, the SS is to take shots form AP2 weapons. Axe is on a regular dude for the +1A because of Pistol.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I like the list and your tactics behind it. This entire thread has really made me think about how to use my wolves more effectively and it has been a great mental exercise.

[Frater Cornelius]

I did a small mistake. Khan needs to be warlord for the bikes to have scout and outflank. This is not an issue when I am allowed to play 2 full detachments. When I am limited to primary + allied, I might just play Captain instead of Khan and Raven Guard to get Scout/Outflank. Getting that alpha strike is worth losing some WS goodies.

 

But enough of that, SW + WS will be up next for testing. But let us put something else on the dissection table. I am two more plans I really want to try. One is Ultramarine allies. They have Tigurius, Thunderfire Cannons and Stormtalons on top of their Chapter tactics. They just offer much needed flexibility and change of pace that you do not get with WS bikes. They are predictable.

 

The second one I want to consider is armoured support for my TWC. This idea got rekindled after me reading through IA2 Vol2 and buying a Sicaran Battle Tank shortly after. Iron Priests are fast enough to keep up with tanks and can repair them and it just feels like a heavy metal combo. Tanks and heavily armoured mounted Berserkers. If that does not make a great metal music video, I do not know what does.

[Jochteas]

LoL you already bought one?

[Frater Cornelius]

I had some spare cash since some delayed payment arrived yesterday. I want to have it done by 1st Nov. to use in the league finals.

[Wolf Guard Dan]

The list looks strong. Tactics are sound. You should have a good showing at this event. Good luck.

Lack of purity with 45% WS though. That was a concern of yours prior. But this is a competitive setting. As long as it doesn't bore you it should be fun.

I too am curious as to the next update of the 6th edition codexes. I don't foresee those books being redone for awhile. I heard next year will be a lot more Warhammer Fantasy. I would love for them to start working on some 6th edition books though (Eldar)

[Frater Cornelius]

I do feel that WS will bore me. That list's biggest flaw is predictability. A newer player might be surprised, but a veteran will easily see through it, take cover and play around it. However, it is still strong. If I can not come up with anything else, this will be the list I will use for the current league.

 

But to expand on the idea of mechs. IG comes to mind. I can jump around as much as I like, SM mech is comparison to IG mech. If FW is allowed, I can use the Armoured Battlegroup and my Sicaran Battle Tank. If no FW, then IG allies with backfield platoon and some heavy armour should do the trick.

I do not like parting from Grav support. The question is whether IG tank can pressure Wraithknights just as well.

Leman Russ armour makes is pretty much immune to Wave Serpents and Tesla, which is a good start. TWC will draw fire, but they are used to it. Armoured Battlegroup can easily deal with a WK. Their HQ Vanquisher can bring Beastslayer Shells (making his short instant death). With the regular IG book, not sure. Executioner maybe?

 

Edit: Holy.. I just had a look in my ABG army list. There are orders for tanks to ignore cover. So you can get a small blast that is 72" S8 AP2 Instant Death and with an order that is successful on a 4+ the enemy must reroll success cover save. If that does not scream 'MC killer' I do not know what does. But that is Forge World and should be enjoyed in moderation. Not everyone accepts it.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, after some back and forth, some threads, PMing, finding out that Forge World being rather widely accepted and experimenting with SM allies, here is a new version:

Primary Detachment:

Wolf Lord

• SS, RA, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth, Meltabomb

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 2 Wolves

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 2 Wolves

6 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 PA

Drop Pod

• Stormbolter

• Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre (does not scatter on deep strike)

Sicaran Relic Battle Tank

• Dozer Blade, Armoured Ceramite

Allied Detachment or Combined Arms Detachment:

Tigurius

10 Tactical Marines

• Melta, Multimelta

• Combi-Melta

• Drop Pod

10 Tactical Marines

• Melta, Multimelta

• Combi-Melta

• Drop Pod

3 Dev-Centurions

• 3 Grav Cannons w/ grav-amps, Hurricane Bolters

• Omniscope

Tigurius rolls on Divination and goes with Centurions in the SW DP.

Here is the original version of the list:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/298214-one-offs-vs-spam/?p=3838735

Something I dislike is dropping LSS with Scouts. It is an excellent capping unit. Losing the Stormtalon did not matter to me. Losing the Kheres is a mixed bag. On the one hand, he only has 30" threat range and he does not excel at anything. Killing Tanks? Melta, Grav and IP do that. Killing Jinkers? TWC and Sicaran do that. AA? Fair enough, but there are not too many flyers these days. Besides, Tiggy Prescience on Centurions and forcing crash-and-burn-tests works too.

Killing Infantry? I have more than enough Bolter shots, TWC and Jarl for that.

So instead I went for Tacs. They have good dakka and Meltas. Why UM tacs though and not GH? Tactical doctrine, possibly even Tiggy with Storm of Fire is it can be a CAD and Tiggy being the Warlord. Twin-linking Meltas and Bolters is hardcore. It beats GH without Ulrick, who would make an interesting addition to the force, but it is not worth dropping Tiggy or a Tac unit for him.

Looking for feedback