Brainstorming: 'Assault-based SW' or 'the Meta-Killer'

[Araenion]

That looks like a very nice balanced list. How do those Iron Priest work for you? They're worth their rather steep price?

 

Considering a few things myself. That Sicaran is absolutely gorgeous. And the rules are pretty amazing. Given that around here people generally don't mind if you ally with yourself, I've been giving thought to this list:

 

Champions of Fenris Detachment Primary:

 

 

Wolf Lord: Thunderwolf, Runic Armour, Krakenbone's Sword, Fellclaw's teeth, 2 Fenrisian Wolves

 

Iron Priest: 4 Cyberwolves

4 TDAWG: 4 Combi-plasma, 2 SS, 2 Frost axes

 

Stormwolf: 2 TLMM

14 Fenrisian Wolves: Cyberwolf upgrade

5 Thunderwolf Cavalry: 2 SS, 1 PF

 

Sicaran Battle Tank: Dozer Blade

 

 

Space Wolf Ally detachment:

 

Rune Priest: Helm of Durfast, ML2, Combi-plasma (deploys with the TDAWGs in their drop pod)

 

10 Grey Hunters: 2 Melta guns

Dedicated Drop pod: Deathwind launcher

5 Grey Hunters: Wolf Standard (these go into the Stormwolf)

Dedicated Drop pod

 

Drop Pod: Deathwind Launcher (TDAWGs deploy here)

 

Warlord traits will probably be chosen from either COF supplement or the main rulebook (fishing for Infiltrate). If deploying first, I have an Iron Priest leading the Wolves, 5 TWC with their Lord, bubblewrapping the Sicaran Battle Tank, a squad of Termies + RP pumping 10 Plasma shots (2 TL with Ignores cover), plus Living Lightning, plus possible Prescience/Ignores cover from Divination.

 

Plenty of CC, but also plenty of very effective firepower.

[Frater Cornelius]

I have a 1500 points batrep for you. Here I will explain my reasoning and comment on the above list at the same time. Here we go:

My List

Jarl
- TWM, RA, SS, KBS, FCT, Meltabomb

Iron Priest
- TWM
- 2 Wolves
Iron Priest
- TWM
- 3 Wolves

5 TWC
- 2 SS, 1 PA

Drop Pod
- Stormbolter
- Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre

Drop Pod
- Stormbolter

Tigurius

10 Tacticals
- Melta, Multimelta, Combi-Melta
- Drop Pod w/ Stormbolter

3 Dev-Centurions
- 3 Grav-Cannons w/ Grav-amp, Hurricane Bolters
- Omniscope

1500 points.

My enemy was a Dark Eldar

He had a Archon with some Poison AP3 Blade, some fancy armour and the portal that allows him and his unit to deep strike perfectly.
10 Warriors with Splinter Cannons in a Raider with the S5 AP2 gun.
10 Wyches in Raider with S5 AP2.
5 Trueborn with Lances in Raider with Lance.
5 Incubi in Venom with 2 Splinters (HQ goes here)
FA Venom with Splinters
2 Flyers (the old ones, not the new ones)
10 of those jump pack guys that can get lances (forgot the name)
Ravager with 3x S5 AP2 gun

So basically it was either a few shots S8 AP2, 3-9 shots per unit S5 AP2 or 12-20+ 4+ Poison shots per unit.
Thise flyers also had Poison 4+ large blasts

As you can see, not very pleasant.

Psy: Tiggy rolled and re-rolled in Divination and got Ignore Cover, 4++ and Precognition (re-roll hit, wound and saves) ontop of Prescience.

We played Maelstrom mission 1.

He went first. I deployed defensively. He could not fire for full effect unless he moved dangerously close into assault range.
I failed to steal initiative.

T1 DE:
He did not move closer but instead took a few shots at a few models he could see. Lost one Cyber Wolf. Passed morale.

T1 SW:
I activated tactical doctrine.
Tiggy and Cent arrives in dropsite massacre pod and thus did not scatter. This was amazing. I managed to place my models in a way that they could not be seen except by the units I was about to shoot.
Tacs landed close to cover and ready to kill those jump pack guys.
TWC and IP moved up as far as they could without exposing themselves.
Psychic phase was fun. I had 7 dice. I got Prescience through with 3/4 successes. Then I casted 4++ on the cents with 1 dice and succeeded due to Tiggy's re-roll. He took the bait and tried go stop it. He did, but now he could not stop Ignore Cover anymore.
All TWC ran into position.
Cents did split fire. 2 Cents took out the Ravager. 1 Cent immobilized the Raider with Wyches, making them useless.
Tacs annihilated the jump packs. 3 were left standing and no special weapons remaining.

T2 DE:
Archon and his buddies arrived via DS without scatter and parked on an objective.
One flyer came on. The flyer put 2 wounds on Jarl and killed 1 TWC. 1 Venom killed an IP. The other Venom and a Raider managed to knock another wound of TWC and knock a wound of the Jarl.

T2 SW:
The empty pod arrived. It only existed to have 2 full pods come on T1. It landed on an objective I needed to score.
This is where it was decided. The other IP and TWC moved up. Cents and Tacs shuffled around.
Tiggy got Prescience on cents but periled with a 2 and 'forgot' ignore cover. Jeez.
Tacs killed the HQ Venom. Cents killed a Raider. The IP charged and killed the last functional Raider. TWC charged the HQ squad. My sarge died but so did his entire unit once the Jarl got to swing.

DE T3:
Second flyer did not come on. His first was forced to leave the board. No hover.
He shot everything at Jarl and unit and only managed to kill 1 TWC.
He did not manage to hurt the tacs.
The Trueborn whose Raider the IP smoked attacked him but got smoked by the IP.
Wyches disembarked and moved towards IP.

SW T3:
Tacs killed remaining jumpers. Jarl killed last Venom in melee. 2 remaining TWC killed the warriors (sweepin advanced them). Cents and pods shot the Wyches who were forced to hit the ground.
IP killed immobilized Raider. Explosion killed 3 Wyches.

DE T4:
Both flyers came on. One failed to kill Jarl. Got lucky there with 3 3++ saves in a row.
Other one killed 1 Cent.
Wyches Snap shots at IP. Nothing.

T4 SW:
IP killed Wyches (sweeping advance. At that point we called it.

SW 10 - DE 3. I got First Blood, Slay the Warlord, Line-breaker, held 4 objectives, killed a unit in melee and made a few challenges.
He held 2 objectives and I failed one morale check on an IP (wasn't a big deal).

What is the verdict?
First, Tiggy + Cents in a non-scattering pod are insane. Tiggy's ability to re-roll powers and re-roll failed tests makes him incredibly reliable. But I need to drill this home. Having a non-scattering pod is priceless. It allows you to exactly position yourself so that you can kill any given unit and prevent retaliation from other units.

TWC did fine. A big unit is very resilient. This game I was rather unlucky with armour saves but lucky with pen rolls, so it balances out. However, it is much easier to position and manage one unit.
Jarl requires no comment. He kicked ass and took wounds like a boss.

IP are good as always. They are very point efficient, fill mandatory Elite slots, can repair the Sicaran once it arrives, they eat quite a bit of firepower and stand a decent chance of surviving it. They also destroy vehicles like nothing else. Just do not throw them against faster melee specialists.

Tacs. Damn did I underestimate them. First, let me get one thing out of the way. They are not better than GH in general. GH are in fact superior in many ways. But Tacs are superior for me and the way I play.
I always say not to spend too many points of a units outside of their niche. GH might be awesome in melee, but when arriving by pod I want them to shoot. I skip melee weapons and banner. GH and Tac cost the same that way. So the only difference is that GH have 1 CM and 2 meltas while tacs have 1 CM 1 melta and 1 multimelta.
So all thing being equal, why do I prefer Tacs? Tactical Doctrine. The alpha strike potential is amazing when using that. If your first tacs stand a good chance to survive, you can use it turn 2 when both tacs are there. They will arrive because tiggy gives reserve re-rolls. The damage potential is just so much greater.
They can also benefit from Dev and Ass doctrines if they need to overwatch or charge. In melee they are just as good as naked GH. It is enough against ranged specialists. Against melee specialists even upgraded GH will lose.
The tac doctrine is great. It also helps if I did not manage to get through prescience.
Anyway, I will explore this option more. I like the way they worked a lot.

The empty pod was great. It allowed 2 full pods arrive turn 1, which was a massive advantage. Then park the empty pod on an objective and consider it secured.

Overall, great game. The opponent was not dumb. He actually plays tournaments on occasion. His army was very solid. It speaks volumes that I managed to get off a decisive victory.
I like this setup a lot and I will try to get some tougher opponents on the line fairly soon.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Where did you find the Istvaan upgrade for the pod?

[Frater Cornelius]

Where did you find the Istvaan upgrade for the pod?

 

IA2 2nd Edition. Same book you find pretty much all Space Marine related things. Sicaran, Contemptor and all the special Land Raiders come from there. The last section of the book gives you the option to upgrade vehicles with so-called 'Legacy of Glory' upgrades. One of them is Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre. 20 points upgrade for any vehicle that can deep strike.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

Thanks, much appreciated.

[FenrisWolf]

So your Sicaran would be in a higher points list?

[Jochteas]

I ~*think*~ he just didn't have it yet, and probably would drop 1 IP to include it in the list. But that's my guess.

[skeletoro]

Note: our contemptor is in a different book (ia apoc iirc)

[FenrisWolf]

Note: our contemptor is in a different book (ia apoc iirc)

 

Yep, Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2nd Edition, p. 27

[Frater Cornelius]

I was actually talking about SM contemptor (mortis). I know the SW one is in apoc :P

As for Sicaran, I do not have it yet. FW is taking it's merry time.

[Frater Cornelius]

I just found out about the awesome Legacy of Glory called 'Battle of Sarosh'. 30 points upgrade to a vehicle. Once per game, before rolling to hit, you can give the vehicle Tank Hunter, Skyfire, Interceptor or Night Vision. Imagine, a Sicaran getting Skyfire on top of his usual 'Ignore Jink'. Or how about deleting that Night Spinner or Wave Serpent over there with Tank Hunter. Damn, son.

The only issue is finding those 30 points. Here is what I had in mind:

 

 

Primary Detachment:

Wolfguard Battle-Leader

• SS, RA, TWM, Krakenbone Sword, Fellclaw's Teeth

 

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 3 Wolves

Iron Priest

• TWM

• 3 Wolves

 

6 TWC

• 2 SS, 1 Frost Axe

 

Drop Pod

• Stormbolter

• Legacy of Glory: Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre (does not scatter on deep strike)

 

Sicaran Relic Battle Tank

• Dozer Blade

• Legacy of Glory: Battle of Sarosh (can get Tank Hunter, Skyfire, Intercept or Night Vision once per game)

 

Allied Detachment or Combined Arms Detachment:

Tigurius

 

10 Tactical Marines

• Melta, Multimelta

• Combi-Melta

• Drop Pod

10 Tactical Marines

• Melta, Multimelta

• Combi-Melta

• Drop Pod

 

3 Dev-Centurions

• 3 Grav Cannons w/ grav-amps, Hurricane Bolters

• Omniscope

 

 

 

Where are the changes? I dropped Ceramite of the Sicaran, there are other, cheaper, ways to protect him from Meltas. Then I made the WL into a WGBL and dropped the melta bomb. Those 65 points are spend on Battle of Sarosh, 1 more Wolf per IP and a Frost Axe as opposed to a PA on the TWC.

 

I like the upgrades but I am not sure about the downgrade of the WL. He loses 1WS, which does not matter with FCT. But he also loses 1 Wound and 1 Attack. The 1 Attack is somewhat mitigated by him now having PE (Characters) in challenges, but it is still a loss. The 1 Wound is also crappy, since it reduces his tanking capabilities. I do like having more Wolves on the IP though.

 

I found the lack of Wolves disturbing.

http://i.imgur.com/LMUIddC.jpg

 

Thoughts whether that change was worth it? Battle of Sarosh is insanely good on a Sicaran and having more Wolves is nice. But regardless of what he gained, the WGBL is a bit weaker than a Lord.

[Baulder]

Just on the merits of the vehicle upgrades (from IA2) did you see ignores cover for blast weapons? While I know that the stormfang isn't great, an AP2 large blast that ignores cover would be brutal. Even to a lesser extent this upgrade could be quite useful on the stormwolf and interestingly the rule states "Any of the vehicles weapons that use any size of blast marker gains the Ignores Cover special rule", so I wonder if you read it as RAW then the weapon gains ignores cover (which could mean the focussed fire mode also has the rule?). Though I'm sure the RAI is that when using blast markers these weapons get Ignores cover. It comes in at 15pts more than the drop pod upgrade so more a case of if you have the points I think (but I have no doubt that if used correctly it would make its points back).

[Hear da Lamentation]

OK - I am clearly being thick here - because I don't know much about "suppliments" - but this IA2 2nd Edition. . .  

 

What is it? (I have never heard of it).  Is it legal in all games (including tournaments)?

[Baulder]

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_VOLUME_TWO_SECOND_EDITION.html

[Hear da Lamentation]

Right !  So this is Forgeworld.

 

I didnt think most tournaments allowed Forgeworld stuff?

[FenrisWolf]

HDL, the supplements are ForgeWorld books.  Time was they were alternate rules that required player agreement and weren't legal in tournaments.  A few years ago, GW decreed that FW was tournament legal and technically no player agreement is needed - they just say to make sure your opponent is aware of the rules.

 

I think now the only thing to be careful of is that some things in ForgeWorld are 30K (Horus Heresy era) only.  The stuff you can use in 40K is marked as such.  Some things are also Apoc only.

[Frater Cornelius]

I lookesld it up. Things changed a lot. Some still do not allow it. But the majority actually does.

[Frater Cornelius]

*sigh* it's that time of week again guys. *Alert! TWC rant incoming*

 

1680 points against an UM casual tournament player. I will not go into details. I will just tell you one thing. 5 Sternguard rapid fire on TWC with poison ammo + 3 Centurions grav on TWC. I lost WGBL and all 6 TWC. The rest of my units kinda disappeared at the bottom of T3 because I lost too many models T1. I am not kidding. I seem to be cursed. I can hold most saves fairly well, or at least statistical. When it comes to TWC saves, I could just put guardsmen there, they would last longer.

Needless to say, I am a bit pissed because of my inability to hold TWC saves. Past 20-ish games I was unable to hold the majority of TWC saves while the other units did just fine.

 

Hm, maybe that is a sign actually. To go back to my original idea I wanted to use with TWC. I wanted to play a high pressure Krakendoom army with plenty of fast and/or light armour and pods with TDA and PA. No TWC.

It is worth a try. Ulrick will certainly be one of the HQs there, as will Tigurius with Cents. Sicaran fits that theme well due to being fast. Now I will play a few pods, a few bikes or maybe speeders and all that jazz. Maybe that will work better, because I really do not want to go back to Tau :/

 

I'd ask for feedback on that matter but I seem to provoke more questions in you than answers :P

[Mal Luck]

Well, if you're looking for non-useful feedback: the TWC Wild Hunt was damned cool. It may not be the optimal list you can achieve, and as you've been progressing you've moved increasingly away from them to the point that if it weren't for the COF organization chart, the list would look to be more space marines with space wolf allies, but the (original) list/concept had style.

That said, the above concept seems sound and HQ force multipliers like Tigurius and Ulrick are always a solid choice. On a more meta level, can't really add more than that as not the most experienced player. One or two of the COF formations might be beneficial if you're going space wolf wolf guard Pods & TDA.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, I have no found a way to make TWC work. I seem to arrive at the same dead end. People hose them down like nothing happened. Grav, Poison or S7. I agree that the idea is cool, but I like to win a tournament with it.

On top of that, there's my compulsion to get rid of models I do not use. I am not ready to part with my TWC. But I have no idea how to proceed. UM allies are damn strong with Tiggy + Cents but are also damn expensive. However, I am not seeing any adequate answers to any SW problem in the SW codex.

 

I mean if anyone has feedback on this matter, which I doubt, then for the love of the Emperor, throw it at me. I need a break myself lest I do something rash :D

[Mal Luck]

Wish I could be of more help to you, but you seem to have tried pretty most the obvious (and a few out the box) options.

The TWC will always be vulnerable to the types of weapons killing them (although more SSs might help vs grav & plas), so perhaps the only way to safe guard them is to make them less of a tempting threat - invest less into them and spread them out into several smaller units; although they'd lose some potency is the process, a basic TWC without any trimmings is still a notable threat if it gets into melee as most armies are shooty based. Other than that: you've tried target saturation & high pressure; they're probably too big to hide (LoS) behind mech reliably; you've used a variety of "Look out Sir" shenanigans; you've tried to alpha strike enemy threats to them, etc.

 

How about trying some more psychic support? Powers such as Sanctuary could be used to give them a 2+ invulnerable save - although that'd still be vulnerable to sheer volume of fire, and/or Invisibility could be used to cut down on the number of shots actually hitting them (thus volume of saves). Naturally this has the big weakness of being reliant on favourable RNG, without investing in pyskers such as Tigurius or Sevrin Loth and neither of them can take bikes to keep up with the TWC.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, Sevrin Loth allows me to choose Invisibility and Endurance. No rolling needed. But I absolutely dislike Deathstar builds. Besides, Tau counters it fairly reliably with markerlight being able to push snapshots BS up.

But it would be like 6 naked TWC, 2-3 IP with wolves, 1-2 Lords with Wolves, Sevrin Loth, a few Scouts and other unit for capping stuff. But if Invis fails, you are bummed. If Sevrin dies to an alpha strike, you are bummed. There is so many leveling on which this could go wrong. I could take tiggy to re-roll tests but he has no guarantee of getting Invis in the first place.

 

I am pretty sure I am being to harsh on TWC and SW in general. I have won plenty of games and many losses were due to key mistakes I did. Today's game could've been different if I did a few key things differently.

But that is my nature. I aim for rank 1 and anything lower would be a disgrace. Obviously I will have extreme standards, but those are only met by the current Necrons and arguably Tau (I do not talk about Eldar and I do not find them that great to play with, rather boring). However, I want to play SW. Period.

[Z00Z]

Brother I applaud your enthusiasm and dedication :)

 

Was there no opportunity for you to drop suicide units on his doorstep to take focus away from the TWC? 
I couldnt tell from your summary battlerep.

[Frater Cornelius]

My mistakes were taking first turn, instead of letting him come to me. Second was not using enough dice for 'Ignore Cover' cast and thus allowing him to stop it. And third one was not going after the Land Raider with Tacs. Those mistakes were huge. But on top of that I had extremely bad luck. I saw almost every dice hit a 3-5 but then hitting a model or a piece of terrain and getting me a 1. That happened a lot.

 

I guess I should not even blame the list or SW in general but rather myself for my bad luck and inability to make key decisions at times.

 

But Mal is right, the current incarnation feels too much like UM with SW allies. That is not good. I will rework it again. I am not sure if I even want to keep the Cents. They are so damn expensive. There must be more cost efficient ways of killing T5+ while ignoring their cover, at least partially.

[Krimsonkilla]

small legion of the damned squads with plasma that ignore cover could help, 5 man squads with plasma - gun,cannon, and combi. could be a solid alternative to the centurions