Frater Cornelius Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 small legion of the damned squads with plasma that ignore cover could help, 5 man squads with plasma - gun,cannon, and combi. could be a solid alternative to the centurions Yeah, I love LotD. I would love them more if they could either DS turn 1 or take an SW pod. Unfortunately, they can do neither. Anyway, after some back and forth I have decided to take a somewhat new approach on the whole thing. "Less is more" like Jochteas called it after seeing it. You know all those fancy weapons on TWC? Gone. What about their shields? Gone. All those fancy upgrades on the Sicaran? Gone. Wait, where are the Multimeltas? Most likely gone. That's right. Welcome to the new and improved 'naked mode'... I should start playing Sisters that way... Anyway! Back on topic. What my lists always suffered from was too high price per model and low model count. The tactic was to delete big dudes with pods while TWC takes on the little dudes. Unfortunately, the little dudes kept hosing down the TWC. I could not let the big dudes live, however, because each shot would risk the life of a very expensive model. Well, not I decided to switch the strategy around. Delete the spammy units with pods. The big ones will not matter now. My models are very cheap at this point and they have enough padding with cheap-ass wolves anyway. Wraithknights can shoot at my warlord all day now. It will take them a while. So, here is the list: Company of the Great Wolf Detachment - Space Wolves: Jarl • Harald, baby! Wooo! • 2 Wolves Iron Priest • TWM • 4 Wolves Iron Priest • TWM • 4 Wolves 5 TWC • 5 Pistols, 5 CCW 13 Fenrisian Wolves Drop Pod • Stormbolter • Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre Sicaran Battle Tank • Dozer Blade Allied Detachment or CAD - More Space Wolves that just happened to use some Ultramarine rules: Tigurius 10 Tactical Marines • Melta, Combi-Melta • Drop Pod w/ Stormbolter 10 Tactical Marines • Melta, Combi-Melta • Drop Pod w/ Stormbolter 3 Dev-Centurions • 3 Grav-Cannons w/ Grav-amp • Omniscope 1850 Let's go over the changes real quick: Harald is there because with so many Wolves Furious Charge makes sense. He will also keep them in the fight with Stubborn and Ld10. He himself is a solid melee character and is damn cheap with his 190 points. Damn solid dude. No random traits here. Being able to plan is always a bonus. Iron Priests are up to 4 Wolves each. Ablative wounds and a lot more attacks. TWC are naked now. NAKED! No, I did not receive any brain damage recently, but thanks for asking. Seriously though. Toughness does not matter much these days, so keeping them cheap is good. The only AP2 weapon that can be spammed these days (outside of combi) are grav. But grav shoots so well that even a 3++ will not save you. You know what will save you? Ablative wounds. When talking about LC or PC. My TWC loses a wound, wow. I consider this a solid way to run them. They are still tough but also cheap now. Their 6 attacks per model at S6 is a lot. No need for padding here. Why only 5? Two reasons. One, I had no points left. Two, with the IP in their unit they will have 7 TWC and 8 Wolves. Grav will only wound on a 4+ now. We already concluded that toughness does not matter so much, especially with long ranged shooting. When you are in bolter or lasgun range and all wolves are alive you can split them. Then you also have Tiggy. If he gets his 4++. Imagine him throwing it on either this unit of on the Fenrisian Wolves. Have fun remove 8ppm and 15ppm model with a 4++ until you can hurt my characters and TWC 15 Fenrisian Wolves (2 from harald and 13 in the unit). These guys are great. Assault screen? Check. Deep Strike denial? Check. Ablative wounds? Check. Damn bloody fast but not really worth shooting? Check. I like Wolves. They keep the Warlord safe like nothing else. Afraid that Warlord will fail morale and run of the field T1? No problem. Deploy him solo behind line of sight. Wolves will still have Ld10 due to his bubble. Even if the wolves run. Your Warlord is still there. I dropped the Ceramite from the Sicaran. I have enough Fenrisian Wolves and even Tac Marines to block melta pods. On the SM side I dropped the multi-meltas. They do not help when arriving by pod. Only a turn after. I am not sure that it was a great idea, but 2 melta shots each is still decent enough, especially when they are twin-linked with doctrine. And they are cheaper now. Verdict: Less points invested per model and model count has increased dramatically. It has decent alpha strike with Cent + Tac or 2 Tac (bringing cents in T2 when facing alpha strike or first having to open a Land Raider can be great, I re-roll UM reserves anyway with Tiggy) and a solid assault base with plenty of wounds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3841753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Just pointing out the TWC with 5 guys with bolt pistols shouldn't be completely discounted either. 6 shots on an assault before the charge probably will drop something, and now the TWC get a reasonable overwatch roll. On top of that the Fen wolves can eat the worse of an over watch before the TWC deals another strong blow. The Defensive utility the TWC lose for being without SS isn't completely a downside, that's not even counting the +1 attack in CC. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3841845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 The shooting is usually negligible, but it can have it's occasional uses. The +1A sounds much more concrete though ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3841864 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z00Z Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I could be mistaken, but wont the WS drop to 4 also with the majority rule? Could be under correction of course :) If thats the case and you lost toughness and WS benefits, seems like a high tax to pay for expensive baseline models just for fast, +1 str and no of attacks? Ill be very interested what the results are from your games in this config. I'm about to build my TWC as part of the solstice vow and you've made me re-think my loadout 3 times for them lol ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3841894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 23, 2014 Author Share Posted October 23, 2014 Majority WS is only relevant when getting attacked in melee. Every model attacks with it's own WS. You only equalize Toughness, which is not relevant against long ranged S7 or Grav. As I said, when getting close and wolves still outnumber the TWC, you can split them and have only 1 IP run with TWC. If you are split on load-out, use magnets. How do they work? *trollface.jpg* :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3841927 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Luck Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Good to see the hunt renewed! Look forward to hearing results of how the list holds up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3842144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 While I will use my current SW/UM list, I will continue to try out more balanced builds, less about Death-Stars. I want to distribute points better. Tacticals in pods and grav Bikes is what comes to mind. Maybe something like Harald + Command Bike squad with apo and grav, Tac/Stern pods and something is fast attack as opposed to Cents + Tiggy. This allows me to have more models on the field T1 and benefit greater from any chosen Chapter Tactic (it will probably will be UM to get that shooty benefit, but I might go to Raven Guard for the stealth bonus in T1 against alpha strikers as well as scouting units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3844031 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorgrim wolfbane Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Immersturm I notice u mentioned using sevrin loth in a previous post because he can pick his powers and you mentioned that you could get endurance and invisibility with him. Unfortunately his rules state that he can choose 6 powers from ONE tree and he only knows the telekinesis, Pyromancy and biomancy trees so unfortunately you can't get invisibility with him, unless FW update his rules soon. So stick with tiggy and use his rerolls Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3845179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 Yeah, I re-read Sevrin's rules the other day. But realistically you only need invisibility. You do not have the Warp Charges to cast both Invis and Endurance. But I would not take him anyway. I dislike Death Stars and Red Scorps chapter tactic is nothing next to UM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3845204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 This Saturday I will play with a tournament player for the top spot in our store league. While it might sound rather friendly, there are quite a few tournament players there and they do not bring very friendly lists. Nonetheless, I managed to get to the top with SW. How this works is that we have a Pyramid and any player can challenge the player above or next to him. If he wins he takes his place. All games can be anything 40k related but the final game for the top spot has to be 1850 points Maelstrom. The reigning champ need to make his list public and is not allowed to change it. If he loses, he will be put at the very bottom. I was once at the top with Tau but sort of lost of purpose because the list was bad. Now I am at it again and this time I had to battle my way through plenty of evil players. I do not exactly know the load-out of the top guy since he forgot to leave the list there and I did not really bother to ask. But I know the general idea. He plays DA + IG + INQ. Azrael leads the party. He joins with a 50 dude blob with some plasmas and axes and a priest and an Inquisitor. Azzy can choose any trait out of his book so naturally he will choose the one that gives his unit FnP 5+ when they are within 3" of an objective, which should not be too hard. In addition to that he runs a Plasma Sentinel, a Wyvern, PCS in Taurox, 50 Conscripts with another Priest. Then we have a few min. Henchmen with Psykers in Psybacks for his INQ detachment. The only thing I am not sure of is the load-out of his DA component. I know it is Ravenwing, but I am not sure if there are any RW Knights/Command Squads. I dislike those TL plasma talons... I will be using my latest SW + UM. Since the Sicaran is on his way but still not arrived, I might have to exchange it with an UM Stormtalon with TL-AsC and Skyhammer ML. It is pretty cheap and a very solid replacement. I will be standardizing the Talon for games where FW is not allowed. I have tried it in 2 games today (1250 and 1500) and it worked just fine. Anyway, I do hope the Sicaran arrives, but if not, no big deal Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3846882 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Well if anyone can beat him. I'm sure you can. As usual let us know how olé Tiggy and Co do with the SW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3846987 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Unless I'm missing something, which is quite possible, can't you only take one Legacy of Glory per full 1000 points? The text on page 244 of IA2: Second Edition under Purchasing Legacies of Glory implies that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3847560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 29, 2014 Author Share Posted October 29, 2014 Yeah, I only have one Legacy in my list, the non-scattering pod. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3847565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wulfgar hammerfist Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 Okay, I thought that in one version you had the Istvaan V one on a pod and the battle of Sarosh on the Sicaran. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3847585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 30, 2014 Author Share Posted October 30, 2014 Batrep time! WOOOOOO! This was the last test game before the somewhat bigger deal on saturday :D I played against the same UM tourney player I lost the last time. That was the game after which I started with the naked TWC theme. Let's see how it went. 1750 Game. My List: Harald + 2 Wolves Iron Priest • TWM + 4 Cyber Wolves Iron Priest • TWM + 4 Cyber Wolves 6 TWC • 6 CCW, 6 Pistols 13 Wolves Drop Pod • Dropsite Massacre Tigurius 10 Tacticals • Melta, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod 10 Tacticals • Melta, Combi-Melta + Drop Pod 3 Dev-Centurions • 3 Grav-Cannons, 3 Hurricane Bolters His List (approximation): Tigurius Chapter Master • Shield Eternal, Artificers Armour, Power Axe, Bike Command Squad • Bikes, 4 Grav Guns, Apothecary 10 Tacticals • Melta, Multimelta + Drop Pod 5 Scouts • Bolters + Land Speeder Storm 10 Sternguard • 2 Heavy Flamer, 3 Combi-Meltas + Drop Pod w/ Dropsite Massacre 3 Dev-Centurions • 3 Grav Cannons, 3 Hurricane Bolters Land Raider Redeemer • Multimelta Maelstrom Mission 6 He won the roll-off, chose his side and deployed first. We went fairly aggressively. I deployed defensively. TWC and TWM units were outside of bike and cent threat range. Fenrisian Wolves were inside threat range of bikes but they are virtually immune to grav anyway. Harald stood solo at the back, lest the Wolves break and he runs away with them. I managed to steal initiative. SW T1: Here comes my stroke of genius. I activated tactical doctrine and had the 2 tacticals arrive turn 1. Both pods dropped right in front of the Land Raider and the tactical bubble wrapped it. Regardless whether the LR survives, he can not move up front and his centurions will be stuck until he removed tacs and pods. This gives TWC time to advance. The 4 melta shots managed to immobilize it and destroy one of the flamers on the redeemer. TWC and 1 IP moved in the direction of the LR. Harald, second IP and Wolves moved towards the Grav bikes. UM T1: Tacs landed, Cents left LR and moved back a bit. Grav bikes moved back a bit. Bikes, Cents and LR removed my tacs. His tacs killed 9 Wolves. All morale checks were passed. SW T2: Cents landed in cover. They shot the Cents, who passed 7/9 4++ saves... I am serious! Tiggy casted 4++ on the IP, he advanced solo. TWC had to hang back a bit to hold an objective (it would give me 2 VP). Harald, IP and Wolves charged with Command Squad. Chapter Master died (his luck turned apparently). I only lost 3 Wolves. UM T2: His LSS flanked and grabbed objective. Stern arrived in combat squads, scored and killed 2 TWC. His Cents shot my Cents and killed 2 of them (he did not roll 'ignore cover'). Tacticals could not do anything since Harald was in melee. He lost the Command Squad while I lost 2 Wolves and 1 Cyber Wolf. SW T3: This was the crux that sealed it. Last Cent killed 5 Sternguard. TWC killed other 5 Sternguard. One IP charged LSS and killed it. The other IP killed the LR. Harald charged Tiggy but only killed 1 Cent (yeah, he is good with 4++ rolls). UM T3: Tacticals tried to move up and shoot TWC, but they were out of reach. Tiggy tried to cast Force but I stopped it. Scouts shot the IP but did nothing. SW T4: Harald and one IP finished Tiggy. Second IP killed Scouts. At that point we called it. I was leading 10/7 VP and he was almost tabled. He had only 10 tacs left on the field. I lost 14 Wolves, 3 Cyber Wolves, 2 Cents and 20 Tacs. The relevant units, meaning Harald, the IP, the TWC and Tiggy (and partly the cents) were still alive. The plan has worked. The delivery system and early pressure has drawn all the fire away. The TWC hit the lines and the game was over. Increasing the body-count really helped a lot. I like this new incarnation very much. Naked TWC are really great. Cheap and effective. Harald's force-multiplying is extremely effective, even though he is not as great in CC as the Krakenboner. His buffs are worth it. IP were useful as ever. S10 is always welcome. Wolves are golden. Amazing delivery system. Tacs were amazing with their pods. They really made the game by completely walling in the Land Raider and drawing the fire. Cents and Tiggy were hilariously useless this game. The 4++ never came into effect, the Cents only killed 1 Cent and knocked a wound of Tiggy. They ate fire though. Still, today grav has failed :D That was pretty much it. Very capable list when the tactics are right. Even the Eldar cheese master was impressed ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3848798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Was the Elder Cheese Master Wheely impressed by how Gouda you did? Or was he just shocked of what a Munster you had become and how quickly you blue through those guys like a brie'ze Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3848956 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisWolf Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Merciful Russ and the All-Father.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3848977 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 He liked the general strategy and clever use of game mechanics :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3849114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 He liked the general strategy and clever use of game mechanics Oh c'mon, you gotta milk the cheese puns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3849154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Nah, one is enough around here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3849155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 on topic, Why no battle tank? was it simply because it hadn't arrived yet, because it was 1750 instead of 1850? what? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3849173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 I wanted more man power and because battle tank ain't there yet and because it would've been no help against UM. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3849222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedrogzc Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 SW T1: Here comes my stroke of genius. I activated tactical doctrine and had the 2 tacticals arrive turn 1. Both pods dropped right in front of the Land Raider and the tactical bubble wrapped it. Regardless whether the LR survives, he can not move up front and his centurions will be stuck until he removed tacs and pods. This gives TWC time to advance. The 4 melta shots managed to immobilize it and destroy one of the flamers on the redeemer. TWC and 1 IP moved in the direction of the LR. Harald, second IP and Wolves moved towards the Grav bikes. The plan has worked. The delivery system and early pressure has drawn all the fire away. The TWC hit the lines and the game was over. Increasing the body-count really helped a lot. I like this new incarnation very much. Naked TWC are really great. Cheap and effective. Harald's force-multiplying is extremely effective, even though he is not as great in CC as the Krakenboner. His buffs are worth it. IP were useful as ever. S10 is always welcome. Wolves are golden. Amazing delivery system. Tacs were amazing with their pods. They really made the game by completely walling in the Land Raider and drawing the fire. Cents and Tiggy were hilariously useless this game. The 4++ never came into effect, the Cents only killed 1 Cent and knocked a wound of Tiggy. They ate fire though. Still, today grav has failed That was pretty much it. Very capable list when the tactics are right. Even the Eldar cheese master was impressed Nice batrep! Remember with the tac bubble wrap that he could tank shock you... You were lucky inmobilizing the raider. What I fear about naked thunderwolves, specially the shields, are that you are leaving them without being able to handle some units that you could need deal with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3849226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 31, 2014 Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 If he tank shocked me, he couldn't have disembarked Centurions. This all was not to stop Raider but to stop the Cents from shooting. By the say, the Sicaran just got here. Just in time! WOOO! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3849243 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochteas Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 If he tank shocked me, he couldn't have disembarked Centurions. This all was not to stop Raider but to stop the Cents from shooting. Care to explain how? (I don't think you're wrong I just want to know how to do this) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296901-brainstorming-assault-based-sw-or-the-meta-killer/page/13/#findComment-3849253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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