Brainstorming: 'Assault-based SW' or 'the Meta-Killer'

[knife&fork]

 

 

What I need now is opinion on Skyhammer Stormwolves (more shots, the melta targets are handled by TWC), and WG bikes.

 

 

 

They are awful and you are wasting points on a magnificent flyer by not playing to its strengths.

If you must save points on something swap them for the TLHBs. 6 twinlinked shot are a lot better than 3 non TL even if their strength is worse. Remember that the skyhammers are a single weapon, not two. With TLHBs it's still a decent flying MC hunter.

 

I also disagree about TWC being able to handle all suitable melta targtes. Knights for example can make short work of TWC.  

 

Concentrated melta is good, that means having to dedicate less of your units to one particular place. So 4 meltas in one unit (4 is what I consider minimum for a proper AV or monster killer squad) is a lot better than 2 units with 2 meltas each. provided of course they have the mobility to match. IMHO only flyers and pod have that in marine lists.

 

 

Something to keep in mind about those vindicators compared to other options: stunned and shaken are the most common results on the damage table. Blasts might not disappear when you miss, but chances are they won't get to shoot at all. 

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I think more than 1 stormwolf is a liability. I went back and forth with whether or not a storm wolf was worth a go in place of the land raider in my list above. I decided for banner delivery no. But taken on its own it very well might. Then drop the grey hunters and replace them with a blizzard Dreadnaught pod or perhaps a wolf guard melta pod. I know alpha strike isn't the goal, but I think the wolf guard melta pod is a good delete button.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

 

What I need now is opinion on Skyhammer Stormwolves (more shots, the melta targets are handled by TWC), and WG bikes.

 

 

 

They are awful and you are wasting points on a magnificent flyer by not playing to its strengths.

If you must save points on something swap them for the TLHBs. 6 twinlinked shot are a lot better than 3 non TL even if their strength is worse. Remember that the skyhammers are a single weapon, not two. With TLHBs it's still a decent flying MC hunter.

 

I also disagree about TWC being able to handle all suitable melta targtes. Knights for example can make short work of TWC.  

 

Concentrated melta is good, that means having to dedicate less of your units to one particular place. So 4 meltas in one unit (4 is what I consider minimum for a proper AV or monster killer squad) is a lot better than 2 units with 2 meltas each. provided of course they have the mobility to match. IMHO only flyers and pod have that in marine lists.

 

 

Something to keep in mind about those vindicators compared to other options: stunned and shaken are the most common results on the damage table. Blasts might not disappear when you miss, but chances are they won't get to shoot at all. 

 

 

Damn, you bring up a good point, bud. I actually thought it would be 2x 3 shots with Skyhammer. If it is just 3 shots (for both sides), then it is indeed not as good as I had hoped and Meltas are superior (because I do not consider HB a good weapon against most targets, it isn't strong enough to threaten vehicles and the other weapons do not work as anti-horde). Better to dedicate the Wolf for complete annihilation of MC and Tanks.

Given the potential of Melta to kill tanks outright, I do consider 2 Stormwolves to be overkill then. You can have both meltas shoot on different targets if need be.

 

As for melta delivery system, I like bikes. Something like 6 WG bikers, 3 combi-meltas, 1 SS and either a 4th CM or a melee weapon. Clocks in at 215 points and they can get the meltas anywhere in a timely manner. The SS is there to reduce the need to jink. They might not land turn 1 like pods, however, they are mobile and can take other tasks outside of deleting a tank/MC. In this list, most enemies will aim for the TWC instead the bikers. In turn 2, they will be in melta range and thus they can open transports and either assault the passengers themselves due to their strong melee capabilities or let the TWC do it.

If the SW arrives turn 2, which in most cases it should, it should be easy to de-mech the opponent outside of very bad luck.

[knife&fork]

I'm a bit skeptical on the bikers, that's only a 18" threat range on the meltas... For oneshot weapons. With smoke or other cover those aren't good odds even at taking out a rhino or chimera.  

[Joshwow1]

I haven't read the full thread yet, however, the little i did read I did not see marine biker allies as an option.

 

Mega Master with all the trimmings leading the spear head of a TWC pack is both awesome and effective. Shield eternal, artificer armor, hammer, and bike with white scars for hit and run (non tar pitted TWC) or iron hands to tank.

 

Grab a few bike squads with grav/melta and you're ready to roll (no pun intended). Now you have a fully mobile army that has short range anti tank for opposing enemy knights ( even though iron priests with 5 str 10 ap 1 attacks will clear a knight a few times over) and can hammer of wrath at str 5 across the board.

[Frater Cornelius]

@knife&fork: what else can you suggest? I know there are LF, but there's gotta be something else for 400-ish points.

But let me ask you this, knife. Why is the ranged de-meching such a thing? Eldar and Cron, the two arguably most dangerous mech armies around, are hard to shoot down and melee is the better option there. IG mech threat is not coming from their transports but from actual tank that can be killed in melee, same goes for most Imperial armies. And should there be a LR, shooting that one down requires heavy duty dakka that only the Stormwolf, a suicide pod or, again, melee can handle.
If the enemy spams cheap transports I can just send IC after one and multi-charge with the cav to pretty much de-mech him completely in 1 assault phase.
In the end, the entire point of this is actually creating a viable melee army and yet we are talking about ranged firepower here. I know it is good to have, but certainly not the main focus.
So instead worrying to much about ranged de-mech, let's see if there is anything else that might support the list.
If it does include a thematic and competitive option for ranged de-mech anyway, awesome. If it has something else, also awesome

@joshwow1: the whole point of these exercises is to create a pure list. I am not a fan of allies at all and besides, Grav bikes is one of worst ways to de-mech opponents. With combi you have 9 shots, 6 hits, 1 glance + immobilized. Not good enough. You need to kill it.
As for melee, WG bikers easily outperform WS bikers there, despite the superior HoW.

[Joshwow1]

@immerstum well, two melta guns and combi melta bike squads have always ruined knights in my games. You don't bring them for eldar, cause that's impossible to kill them lol. Mostly knights since one stomp can destroy the TWC (I've been on that receiving end). But yeah pure wolves TWC, WG bikers, and lone wolves to fill in point gaps?

[Frater Cornelius]

I am actually starting to doubt WG bikes. If they were Swiftclaws, I would play them. But WG bikes only have access to combi meltas, thus they will perform very inconsistent. They are also huge point sinks, too expensive to scoring but only effective if you pour points into them.

The thing is, TWC are the heart, they do not need anything that helps them assault. There are potentially 7 mounted units there, all deadly in their own right. What they need is something that supports them outside of their charge.

[pedrogzc]

Then two hunters squad in rhinos with melta or plasma.

 

I think we have many options and ideas, now we have to try them

[Joshwow1]

I know this is about pure wolves, but I've been allying in sentinels of terra for double grav cent squads and it's been sooooo sweet to assist my TWC star. TWC star + 2 cent squads in FA pods, 2 GH melta packs in pods, and a tac squad in pod. Cheap combi melta librarian with random melta squad. Been working out very nice for me.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, I used to play a SW + WS list with grav bikes, TWC and drop pod cents. It was boring as hell. Imperial Knights are the only allies I would consider because they are less vulnerable to new codex updates, FAQs, edition updates and general changes as opposed to a gimmick and/or overpowered combo from an entire codex.

That is my reason for disliking allies. Sometimes changes from your ally might throw you off our game.

 

To get back on track... well, I do not know. The Stormwolf, I am willing to try one because I have one and people told me it is very strong, although I have yet to see it working for me.

I have abandoned the thought of WG bikes due to their costly and rather inconsistent nature. Seeing as the WG were the way in for the SW, it will either have to take a minimal unit of Blood Claws to transport, increasing it's cost to 300 points but giving me an extra small unit with a Flamer to push someone of an objective later in the game. But if that is worth that very hefty price is very questionable.

I am still split on the Vindicators. On the one hand it is a great psychological weapon. On the other, it is on of the more unreliable ways of actually killing a vehicle, as opposed to just disabling it. However, they seem the most promising at the moment.

 

What else is left that can stick with the theme? Outside of dread, which are too slow for the most part, nothing. Now I have to get imaginative, lest I lose my assault-based 'Wild Hunt' thematic.

I am willing to consider Long Fangs, possibly with Razorbacks, as fire support as opposed to Vindicators. Less pressure but way better at de-meching the opponent and pressure MCs. The question is, is de-meching really that necessary when the most common transports get saves up the *** and get easily killed by TWC anyway?

 

Anyway, the slots I still have available are Elite (I consider Dreadnoughts in pods, and if all else fails WG combi bombs in pods), Heavy Support (Vindicators or Long Fangs) and Troops (GH in Rhinos, though this would be my last choice since they really do not contribute much due to not being able to keep up with TWC and not being able to shoot targets in melee and not wanting to shoot targets that are being charged in fear of increasing distance).

 

I guess it is good to have narrowed down the selection, although were not entering territory where I have limited field experience, name dreads and LF. So a bit of feedback is nice as usual.

[Joshwow1]

I've been toying around with the idea of a BlizzDread Wall so to speak. I saw one get loose on an army and it did work.

 

I'm thinking 5 pods. 3 Blizz Dreads and 2 GH. That gives you 3 dreads turn one forming a phalanx right in front of the opponents army. Center dread only offers front facing. Other dreads only offer left side of one and right side of another. Pods cover the rear armor. With the six inch deployment from pods now only a terrible scatter will get you way out of reach.

 

If you really wanna go nuts on this idea you can go with the FW dreadnought drop pods. Now they have to pop the pod before they get the dreadnought inside.

 

Venerable dreadnoughts also have some fight in them to wars off knights. WS 5 and str 10 and the 3++ can really do well against a knight. Considering a knight will have 4 attacks on the charge. That's 2 hits. Chances of him rolling a 6 for those attacks is low. So on average about 4 hull points, dread will block about 3, then strikes simultaneously with the knight at str 10. Great odds.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hm, after some thinking I have decided to leave Vindicators as well and here is why.

 

A successful list will oversaturate a unit type. If I only spam infantry, the enemies AT weapons become useless. Same goes for a complete mech game. So by taking 2 vindicators I only have 2 AV on the board which will be shot to hell since most players are smart enough not to waste their AT weapons on TWC.

The only AV up for consideration now is the BlizzDread due to his 3++ but nothing else.

 

So, the choices have been pretty much cut down to units with a toughness value in the Elite and HS section (again, not sold on troops here).

[eyeslikethunder]

That's been my experience with Vindicators. I have taken them to take pressure off my TWC in the past. But just found that especially with storm shield TWC they where just giving the proper AT weapons a nice target rather taking the firepower I didnt want on the twc 

[Frater Cornelius]

I decided to reconsider WG bikes, but not as I did before. They are not shooty enough with their combi-weapons, so I make them choppy. They will be there to chase light armour and horde-control/assault-deterrent. They unleash their Bolters in whatever could tarpit TWC and assault them. They are tough enough to last a while and they can screen the TWC from tarpits as well.

To fill the last points I was considering Rune Priests on Bikes with Tempestas. Living Lightning is actually pretty decent to de-mech opponents, as are the Wolf Spirits, and Thunderclap + that rending large blast are perfect to help with horde-control.

Shrouded can also give jinking bikes a 2+ cover save. I feel that 2 Tempestas Priest can be dangerous.

 

Here is an example list:

 

 

Jarl (Harald)
• 2 Hounds

 

Rune Priest

• Bike, ML2, Axe, Runic Armour

Rune Priest

• Bike, ML2, Axe, Runic Armour

 

Iron Priest
• TWM
• 4 Cyber Hounds
Iron Priest
• TWM
• 4 Cyber Hounds

 

6 WG Bikers

• 2 Power Weapons, 1 Stormshield, 1 Meltabomb

6 WG Bikers

• 2 Power Weapons, 1 Stormshield, 1 Meltabomb

 

4 TWC
• 2 SS, Powerfist
4 TWC
• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC
• 2 SS, Wolf Claw

 

 

 

There is also the possibility to replace the RP with Long Fangs. That list has superior ranged firepower (although that is not the point of that list), backfield scorers and more manpower but 'weaker' bike squads and less horde-control.

 

Here is the Long Fang variant:

 

 

Jarl (Harald)
• 2 Hounds

 

Iron Priest
• TWM
• 4 Cyber Hounds
Iron Priest
• TWM
• 4 Cyber Hounds

 

6 WG Bikers

• 2 Power Weapons

6 WG Bikers

• 2 Power Weapons

 

4 TWC
• 2 SS, Powerfist
4 TWC
• 2 SS, Powerfist

4 TWC
• 2 SS, Wolf Claw

 

5 Long Fangs

• 4 Lascannons

5 Long Fangs

• 4 Lascannons

 

 

 

Let me know if what you think of this bike setup and whether you consider the RP worth the reduced manpower on the field.

 

Or do you recon I am better of with off with drop pod or mechanized infantry to support the cavalry?

[pedrogzc]

I have use RP on bike with divination to support TWC and they are ace!!! You could use one with biomancy too.

[skeletoro]

I've also been wondering about Rune Priests on bikes. They're pretty cheap now. You get a 2 wound model with ML1 and a force weapon for only 4 plasma guns. With a bike upgrade they're not much more. I wonder whether a 2 rune priest, 5 wg biker pack might be viable. Keep the rune priests relatively cheap and cheerful - same goes for the bikers (maybe one fist, and one shield on the sergeant for PE challenges).

[Frater Cornelius]

Personally, I think I will try the Long Fang setup, but with 4 Missile Launcher each as opposed to LC. This gives me 40 extra points to spend on 1 SS each for a bike unit. I psychic powers are powerful but 1) random and 2) harder to pull off. 8 ML give me good AT capabilities, ability to pressure Tau and other 3+ armies from range and decent horde control with frag missiles. Sure, they do not really help much against Paladins and other 2+, but that is where the Cavalry will take over.

Taking down Imperial Knights will be harder with ML though but I think hordes pose a greater threat than Knights at that point.

 

Also, what PW do you consider useful on the bike units? They are mainly for assault-screen and taking down weaker enemies and light tanks. I was consider at least 1 mace. Not sure what the second one should be. Maybe an axe for those 2+ guys?

[eyeslikethunder]

I have use RP on bike with divination to support TWC and they are ace!!! You could use one with biomancy too.

And the ability to add force to TWC can be a game changer

[Frater Cornelius]

Force only works on Force Weapons. So only the RP will benefit from it. I still stand by taken more dudes than gambling with psychic powers. I will try the Long Fang missile version of the list tomorrow and see how the LF perform.

[toonarmy]

I would go with the RP's as eyeslikethunder has stated.  The ability to buff your TWC is not be overlooked.  I am running a list not too dissimilar to yours tonight so I will run the RP's and feedback.

[Jagdwulfe]

Force only works on Force Weapons. So only the RP will benefit from it. I still stand by taken more dudes than gambling with psychic powers. I will try the Long Fang missile version of the list tomorrow and see how the LF perform.

Look forward to hearing how it goes. I've got a squad of ML LFs and their TLLC Razorback I just modelled before the release of 7th and haven't finished painting them because I felt like maybe they weren't so good anymore...

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Force only works on Force Weapons. So only the RP will benefit from it. I still stand by taken more dudes than gambling with psychic powers. I will try the Long Fang missile version of the list tomorrow and see how the LF perform.

Look forward to hearing how it goes. I've got a squad of ML LFs and their TLLC Razorback I just modelled before the release of 7th and haven't finished painting them because I felt like maybe they weren't so good anymore...

 

 

I had a slight change of heart. I will try a pure cavalry/beast list. For now it will have 1 SW (with 5 BC + flamer) because I lack 1 WGBL and 3 TWC to pull off a pure list. I mean why break your head about what else to take when you can just take more TWC.

[Hear da Lamentation]

5 BC with flamer was also my choice for the SW. But now I am thinking IP + 4 servitors. 40 more points than BC but nice assault capabilities and can repair 1 hull point per rnd on the SW.

If you aren't playing CAD .... surely a better choice if u can afford points.

[knife&fork]

 

Look forward to hearing how it goes. I've got a squad of ML LFs and their TLLC Razorback I just modelled before the release of 7th and haven't finished painting them because I felt like maybe they weren't so good anymore...

 

 

I think missiles are slightly overpriced now. They really didn't need a price hike after the AP3 nerf. Lascannons on the other hand are more useful than ever and a much better deal at only 5 pts more.