Brainstorming: 'Assault-based SW' or 'the Meta-Killer'

[Jochteas]

I'd like to point out at one time I Mentioned Canis Wolfborn + huge pack of Fen wolves, and you laughed at me

[Frater Cornelius]

We all learn. I started to value Fenrisian Wolves a lot more recently and then I also realized that my COF Morkai's Claws WGBL costs the same as Canis and trades in his 2+ armour against the buff to wolves. I am not completely sold on Canis yet because WGBL will have 2+ save and PE (characters) in a challenge.

 

But regardless whether there is Canis or a second WGBL, what of the list? Do you think it can survive without a single shot being made?

[Jochteas]

My question would what about fliers? I heard necrons especially like to employ a lot. I mean really I like it. But I somehow feel the GK detachment gives it probably better tourney presence. I agree with your philosophy of "less choices to get wrong". But with the GK options like Deep Striking, and Psyker presence/defense seems powerful. More powerful then the wolves? That's the question I suppose.

[Frater Cornelius]

GK detachment can't do jack against flyers either. The only advantage it brings is NDK can ID MC and shunt 30" for initial pressure and the Librarian can easily get the GoI + CF combo on sanctic to teleport around to flame infantry and possibly get some psycannon shot at a rear armour. There is little else. It is mainly the NDK.

 

8 additional Fenrisian Wolves and 2 extra TWC as well as Canis make up for the infantry slaughter if TDA + Librarian due to having a lot of attacks and they are tougher due to greater numbers. The KrakenWG comes close in points of the NDK (a bit cheaper with wolves) but he is a far superior elite infantry killer due to rerolling all hits in melee. He is worse against MC but you can not have everything.

 

Another disadvantage is that I have no unit that can get into the backfield as easily as the GK can with GoI and shunting NDK. However, this is of little consequence if my relative toughness increases and thus more arrive at the enemies lines.

 

And to come back flyers, it's my usual tactics: screw 'em.

[FenrisWolf]

I'd love to see how this list plays out in a few test games, particularly against shooty Tau and Deldar's new codex.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think I will take the pure TWC list out against the Eldar. Although I am prepared to lose, I still want to try this extreme and see what I learn. That game will be a case study about what is missing in the list and how much numbers matter.

 

Just for info, I am currently discussing IG allies with the Astras next door. I think they can help beyond that GK or SW can do.

[irwit]

what do they really bring ?   Something for antitank or anti infantry guns to shoot at is all i see really.   For me the really strength of the TWC list is that you negate so much of what your opponent has.  Antitank doesn't work against it,  cc doesnt work against it,  high strength does not work against it.   Massed small arms fire and some invisible death star that you wouldn't really want to play against anyway. 

[Frater Cornelius]

IG are bloody cheap and they bring massed AC fire. They help me de-mech the opponent, which means the TWC can assault the creamy center.

[knife&fork]

IG are bloody cheap and they bring massed AC fire. They help me de-mech the opponent, which means the TWC can assault the creamy center.

 

From what source? 

 

Remember that guard units are really squishy. Tesla destructors and serpent shields do nasty things to HWT, something to keep in mind since you want to go toe to toe with nasty lists.

[irwit]

With all TWC you have T5 2+3++ army that moves fast and hits really hard.  Because of this all your opponents anti tank weapons,  special weapons,  anti MEQ and TEQ etc are all not useless but not exactly efficient vs your army.   Even small arms fire with T5 and 2+ saves its going to take a lot to hurt you.   The more you include units outside your 2+3++ bubble the more your give your opponents weapons that are not great vs your TWC something to useful at.  You also waterdown what you already have.  I would also prefer an iron priest on TWM vs a couple of autocannons for taking out a tank. 

[Frater Cornelius]

That is true. A lot of TWC bodies are hard to chew through. The thing is, however, that with the pure TWC list I give the opponent 1-2 free shooting phases (depends on whether I am starting or not), which means half of my army could very well be vaporized if I roll really badly.

Using an IG platoon helps me make the opponent slower buy blowing up transports, it also may force one or the other Jink thus reducing firepower. And every Tesla/SS shooting at the HWT is a gun less pointed at the TWC, which is what you really need to be worried about.

 

But hey, maybe tomorrow the pure lit will rock so hard that it won't matter or it will fail utterly and I will consider allies to shore up the area where they failed.

[Jochteas]

Don't suppose you could use a mechanized IG group as your allied detachment could you? That way the army still keeps is mobile feel, and tanks make them a little tougher nut to crack. Also Tanks are just cool.

[Frater Cornelius]

Tanks are very expensive. They will also offer a massive target for all AT guns since using them on TWC is pointless. Things like Chimeras and Hellhounds can cover the TWC though.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, I am packing my army for tomorrow. Any more requests which army to play? SW+GK or the pure SW one? I am rather indecisive. If you really want to know how a certain setup performs, let me know and I take that army for a spin against the Eldar.

[Jochteas]

I suggest the SW+GK because you half way vetted it. Now all the way vet it. You can always go back and do the other list (in fact I suggest it) but id do it scientifically. You know the GK does well in the one group now find out about this group. If you took a new list and it did bad it would tell you nothing about the GK and not settle the question at all. If you think you could get 2 games out of them however.... Otherwise just the GK/SW.

 

 

Also on the side find out more about the IG. I'd use any excuse I can to field some Steel Legion baddies.

[Frater Cornelius]

The voice of reason. I will think it over once again, but in essence you are right.

[Frater Cornelius]

Uh yeah, feedback time.

 

I had a chat with the Eldar cheesemaster and we decided that I would play the pure SW list. This allowed us to see where the shortcoming are. Of cause I lost. He coordinated his units extremely well denying me every charge possible.

But I learned a lot. The issue is that while I build EXTREME pressure, I still have only 1 unit to shoot at: the TWC.

The big thing is that it lacks diversity in it's pressure. It does not force the opponent to choose.

 

Then I tried SW+WS. This went so hardcore. It almost looked like a win but he turned it around last minute due to him rolling perfectly on the Telepathy table (Shrouded and Invisibility with 2 rolls). He is notorious for having perfect rolls, especially with his psy. I expected to lose every game based on his usual rolls alone.

However, we both agreed that if not for Shrouded I would've won big time.

 

What is the verdict? See what WS bring to SW and supplement the TWC core with similar SW elements ;)

[Jochteas]

Where WS even a question? I thought GK were the big question outside of a pure list

[Frater Cornelius]

WS was the strongest list I ever made and I did not have my GK with me. They would not have fared better. NDK is great but TDA/Strikes are borderline useless and Librarian in gimmicky. It is basically a 500 points Dreadknight, which ain't worth it next to Centurion Pod and stuff. But the WS are not included. I will find SW alternatives. It was just to see whether they fare better and what exactly they do that made this list superior to a pure TWC charge. Those two games weren't competitive games as much as they were case studies. I just used Fenrisian Wolves as bikes and I not planning to bring WS back.

[Frater Cornelius]

I don't know. I am really about to give up and go back to Tau. I do not see any Space Marine army viable in any shape or form when it comes down to it. I may kill Necrons, Daemons and Tau given a bit of luck, but every victory is gonna be pyrrhic and could take a bad turn after one bad roll. I do not see any SM army being able to beat Eldar outside of luck.

 

Three problems:

1) We do not have access to high S spam (like Tesla, Tau Missiles)

2) We can not ignore cover at will (Tau, Necrons actually do not need it due to that staggering amount of S7 they put out and Scarab spam)

3) We pay too much per model.

 

So yeah, I actually want to give up. But I just can not shelve Wolves. Everything inside of me is going against it. And I also do not really wish to leave this community to play a xenos codex. I guess I continue to suffer by eternally looking for a solution. I am reading and rereading the codex. I do not see anything.

 

I hate myself for being so stubborn.

[FenrisWolf]

Don't despair!  Luck is a built in part of this game, which is why we have dice!  But your tactics are sound for what I have seen and heard.  You have created tournament lists that have stood up to lots from your reports.  

 

Maybe just think outside the box a little.  Think of unusual synergies.

[Frater Cornelius]

Frankly, I am waiting for the new BA, despite not wanting allies. I just think that fast Predators and Vindicators would be a fine addition.

And as for my tactics, they may be sound but even the best tactics are no match for broken rules.

 

And amongst those players not everyone was that good and the ones against tourney players were a close call.

 

I will collect opinions on mech elements to enhance the list while I experiment with an infantry setup. Maybe that will work, even though a doubt it because having just a few pods and not a dedicated DP list is asking to be alpha'd.

 

Fun fact: there are 3 tournament players I played against with SW and Tau. Where SW only got a narrow win (in one case even a loss) the Tau dominated the enemy so much that it wasn't even funny. I own a freaking killer army that can stand up to the best of them and still I keep crawling back to SW for more abuse.

[FenrisWolf]

Your Germanic heart and soul at work.  Plus SW modeling is so much richer and more varied than anime tau (which can be nice - no mistake!, but not good ol' Northern Euro roots!)

[Hear da Lamentation]

... and clearly Tau are a bit broken. Do you want to play an army everyone thinks is overpowered ... and win. Or do you want to battle like a King, win some, lose some - but hold your head high?

[FenrisWolf]

And suffer if the Tau and Eldar get FAQ-nerfed?  SW codex is well balanced and unlikely to get any major adjustments.