Is Summoning Even Semi-Competitive?

[Dallas Drake]

A non prophets CSM Sorcerer needs to throw 7 dice at a WC3 power (77% chance of success) which means 100% chance of perils on Malefic. Daemons only have a 33% chance of perils but the problem is you just dont have enough WC.

 

Even if you don't lose a single Horror and roll a 6 in the psychic phase that's only 19 dice, that's realistically only 3 attempts at summoning (7,7,5 or 6,6,7 dice). If you play against Nids or another psychic heavy army they'll likely have a similar number of dice around so they'll definitely be able to deny one summoning. That leaves you 2 more, all the while a bunch of MEQs ain't worrying anyone.

 

Sorry to come across all harsh but this won't work outside of casual beer & popcorn games. The problems I think you have are that your summoning isn't points effective and your list isn't threatening enough, I seriously suggest you look at the jeske's and hornywing's suggestions closer, they are the people to listen to.

 

CSMs are pretty poor, a bunch of average guys who don't really worry anyone on foot backed up by a few Daemons? Not a problem for most lists IMHO. Summoning is one of those things where it sounds great on paper then on the table it looks/feels less overwhelming, I've not been blown away by summoning 20 Daemonettes & it certainly hasn't phased many of my opponents either. Plus all those points tied up in summoning kind of balance out the whole 'units for free'. I'd rather have a choppy bike Lord in all honesty.

 

In my experience Malefic & going all out psycher isn't all that, I've tried various forms of it and always found it a bit disappointing/frustrating. It has the potential to be really good, and I think some people on here are talking plenty of sense... but I prefer to spend my points differently.

 

PS. Also, you'd have to be mad to leave Spell Familiars for your DP/Sorcerer out of your list, they'll save your bacon more than once & they cost so little. Add them if it's the one thing you do!

[the jeske]

summoning works ok, if horrors+herald are used to fuel a 2-3 sorc invisistar.

[Dallas Drake]

summoning works ok, if horrors+herald are used to fuel a 2-3 sorc invisistar.

Unless you're me a few weeks ago when I went up against mech Guard and both Tele Sorcerers missed out on Invis & got the crap spells that can't do anything to tanks!

 

That's my issue with psychic stuff, a Nurgle bike Lord or Khârn doesn't have the problem of being a complete waste.

[hornywingythingy]

Or be'lakor, I'm toying with the idea of him instead of bike sorcerors as he can actually fight too.

[the jeske]

 

summoning works ok, if horrors+herald are used to fuel a 2-3 sorc invisistar.

Unless you're me a few weeks ago when I went up against mech Guard and both Tele Sorcerers missed out on Invis & got the crap spells that can't do anything to tanks!

 

That's my issue with psychic stuff, a Nurgle bike Lord or Khârn doesn't have the problem of being a complete waste.

 

It is hard to imagine how 2-3 sorc and a belfegor would end up with just 1 invisi between them. Am not saying it aint possible, but hard to imagine.

 

Not that somehow chaos invisistar is something uber.

[totgeboren]

A non prophets CSM Sorcerer needs to throw 7 dice at a WC3 power (77% chance of success) which means 100% chance of perils on Malefic. Daemons only have a 33% chance of perils but the problem is you just dont have enough WC.

 

With a familiar you only need to throw 5 dice at a WC3 power to have a 75% chance of success (since you have a 50% chance of success with a single try using 5 dice for a WC3 power), though you really need prophet if you don't want to suffer perils every turn.

[Dallas Drake]

 

 

 

summoning works ok, if horrors+herald are used to fuel a 2-3 sorc invisistar.

Unless you're me a few weeks ago when I went up against mech Guard and both Tele Sorcerers missed out on Invis & got the crap spells that can't do anything to tanks!

 

That's my issue with psychic stuff, a Nurgle bike Lord or Khârn doesn't have the problem of being a complete waste.

It is hard to imagine how 2-3 sorc and a belfegor would end up with just 1 invisi between them. Am not saying it aint possible, but hard to imagine.

 

Not that somehow chaos invisistar is something uber.

It was 2 Tele Sorcerers, both whiffed getting Invis & were pretty ineffective against mech. I didn't have Be'Lakor.

 

It's perfectly possible for a Sorcerer to miss out on Invis, each L3 has a 50% chance of getting Invis.

 

 

 

A non prophets CSM Sorcerer needs to throw 7 dice at a WC3 power (77% chance of success) which means 100% chance of perils on Malefic. Daemons only have a 33% chance of perils but the problem is you just dont have enough WC.

With a familiar you only need to throw 5 dice at a WC3 power to have a 75% chance of success (since you have a 50% chance of success with a single try using 5 dice for a WC3 power), though you really need prophet if you don't want to suffer perils every turn.

True. Familiars are brilliant & cheap too.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

A non prophets CSM Sorcerer needs to throw 7 dice at a WC3 power (77% chance of success) which means 100% chance of perils on Malefic. Daemons only have a 33% chance of perils but the problem is you just dont have enough WC.

 

Even if you don't lose a single Horror and roll a 6 in the psychic phase that's only 19 dice, that's realistically only 3 attempts at summoning (7,7,5 or 6,6,7 dice). If you play against Nids or another psychic heavy army they'll likely have a similar number of dice around so they'll definitely be able to deny one summoning. That leaves you 2 more, all the while a bunch of MEQs ain't worrying anyone.

 

I don't ever plan on Summoning with my Sorceror. I'm well aware that this is not even close to an auto-win list. With the greatest respect, I think you should re-read 'the numbers' post I made. It's not as bad as you've made it sound. 

 

I have less than 300 points invested in Summoning (my DP is Biomancy and my Sorceror Prescience + Telepathy) and a reliable return on that investment of 70 Daemons and a Greater Daemon, which is close to or just over 1,000 points depending on the Daemons, none of which includes any Heralds I may Summon. 

[Dallas Drake]

I seem to recall your initial post asking for peoples experiences? Well all I can give you is my honest experience and mine have been lack lustre with psychers & Malefic Daemonology in particular. Then again, I hardly play any more & I play Nids quite regularly so that colours my opinion a little.

 

If you're using the Tzheralds for Malefic then why not go with 3 on discs with Screamers? Then add 11 Horrors for the TC? I imagine you'll want mobility to daemon bomb with possession or spread cursed earth & get summoned troops close to melee? Tzheralds on foot are slow & will limit your options in game.

 

At the end of the day it appears you're happy with it so just go for it.

 

What Mark does your DP have? I'd run 2 because if I remember your list right he'll be pretty lonely up front.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

And that's fair enough, I'm not quibbling your experience. I was quibbling your numbers. You need 5D6 to have a 50% shot of a WC3 power going off and the chance of a Perils is 19.6%, if you're a Daemon which all my Malefic Psykers are. 

 

I don't know what Mark, yet. Probably Nurgle, but maybe Tzeentch. On the whole, I think +1T is more useful.

 

I think, however, I have been put off by the sheer number of models I'll be required to buy, build and paint. I do not have a good history when it comes to completing armies (see my sig.) so this may be altogether too ambitious.

[hornywingythingy]

Demons don't get the normal marks, dp of nurgle gets shrouded not +1 toughness....

[totgeboren]

If you're using the Tzheralds for Malefic then why not go with 3 on discs with Screamers? Then add 11 Horrors for the TC? I imagine you'll want mobility to daemon bomb with possession or spread cursed earth & get summoned troops close to melee? Tzheralds on foot are slow & will limit your options in game.

I would advice against three Heralds on discs in a single unit of Screamers if all of them are going to go Malefic. A unit may only attempt to cast the same power once per phase, so those three Heralds will only be able to make one attempt at casting Summoning per phase.

[hornywingythingy]

 

If you're using the Tzheralds for Malefic then why not go with 3 on discs with Screamers? Then add 11 Horrors for the TC? I imagine you'll want mobility to daemon bomb with possession or spread cursed earth & get summoned troops close to melee? Tzheralds on foot are slow & will limit your options in game.

I would advice against three Heralds on discs in a single unit of Screamers if all of them are going to go Malefic. A unit may only attempt to cast the same power once per phase, so those three Heralds will only be able to make one attempt at casting Summoning per phase.

Depends on your meta, some areas and tournaments are ruling against this, as GW are vague on their intention with the term unit (both the psyker, and the unit he is in are units) but yeah, check your local interpretation. Also horrors are pretty good for summoning backfield units, as when they perils they lose only one model.

[Tenebris]

My club enforces the rule "no models, no summons" which led to some quite original ideas (ghosts, undead... you name it) but in my case it is Chaos Daemons, luckily I have past 3000 points of them. IMO summoning is not a very "reliable" strategy but it is indeed a force multiplier. I personally use several types of summoners, depending on the army I play as main.

 

Usually it is CSM Daemon Prince, ML3, Wings, Armor, Mark of Tzeentch, Spell Familiar, for a resilient and flying summoning bot which can summon my daemons in the most convenient spot.

 

My second option for a more "swarm" summoning army it is Heralds of Tzeentch, 11 Horrors... you know, the classic.

 

My third option is the Sorcerer, Spell Familiar, Prophet. This one is good when I have a mechanized army or I am tight on points. 

 

 

Overall all three work well, their summons buy me some time or cap an objective, but it is mostly for the annoying effect it has on my adversary and as a perfectly viable threat to force him to waste his dispel dice. With my summoned daemons I am completely aggressive, I only rarely keep them on backfield objectives. I throw them heedlessly into harm's way as soon as I can. Every attack, every spell, every shot and every special rule that my adversary wastes on my summons is one less to worry for my main army. 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

So... a better list would only have one unit of 11 Horrors and two ML3 Heralds? 4pts cheaper and gives you another WC.

 

EDIT - And another roll on Malefic.

[bozo69pd]

Check out daemons40k.blogspot.nl

 

Kevin is really good, runs summoning, and posts a lot of alternate lists too.

[hornywingythingy]

Check out daemons40k.blogspot.nl

 

Kevin is really good, runs summoning, and posts a lot of alternate lists too.

Quoting for truth, even in my despair at the state of 40k and considering an indefinite hiatus, I check Kevin's blog daily, cos it's very good.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Pardon the threadomancy, but after a year almost completely out of the hobby I find myself itching to build a Chaos army and I find that the lure of a Summoning army is still very strong.

 

My current 'WIP' list;

 

Slaanesh Daemon Prince, Wings, ML3 (Telepathy)

Sorceror - Balestar, ML3 (Divination)

Marine Squad - x10, 2 Plasma Guns

Marine Squad - x10, 2 Plasma Guns

Raptors - x5, 2 Meltaguns

Havocs - x5, 4 Autocannons

Havocs - x5, 4 Plasma Guns (can't afford Chosen)

Havocs - x5, 4 Missile Launchers w/ Flakk Missiles

ADL w/ Quad-Gun

 

CD Allies

 

Herald - ML3 (Malefic)

Herald - ML3 (Malefic)

Horrors - x15, ML2 (Malefic)

 

CSM Allies

 

Sorceror - ML3 (Telepathy)

Marine Squad - x5, Flamer

Marine Squad - x5, Flamer

 

For the sake of my poor, abused wallet and with the benefit of another year's worth of experience, what do we think? Can you talk me out of it, bearing in mind that I just want an army that is a bit 'different' and somewhat fun to play?

 

The basic plan remains the same;

 

1. run up the board to with everything but the Heavy Havocs and the two min. sized CSM squads
2. summon Daemonettes
3. profit

 

BaleSorc goes with the Plasma Havocs, buffing where needed while the Heralds go with the Horrors who will be Invisible'd by either the DP or the other Sorceror, via six rolls on Telepathy. Numbers wise, 17 Warp Charges, 8 rolls on Malefic. At least a 73% chance of getting Sacrifice and Possession (both could be on the same Psyker). I will have three 50% chances of Summoning (5 dice) and one 31.5% chance of Summoning (4 dice) per turn, guaranteed until I start losing Warp Charges. Ergo, that's at least three Summoned units of ten Daemonettes every two turns, on average. I can Sacrifice where needed to summon up new Heralds and top-up my Warp Charge level. I figure that I'll be low on MLs by turn five, regardless, so I'll tone down the Summoning (with, on average, 7 units of Daemonettes Summoned) and Possess a Psyker to summon a Keeper of Secrets. In every third game, I'll be able to summon two. Casting a power with 5 dice is a 19.6% chance of a Peril, I'm told. Ergo, each Malefic Psyker (who are all Daemons) is guaranteed at least one Peril on average per game. I don't really care, since I can somewhat reliably expect to have and use Sacrifice to acquire new Heralds if mine bite it and the Horrors only lose one model.

 

EDIT - It feels like a year but it seems I posted this thread only a little over six months ago.

[Lagrath]

My summoning lists have always dominated really hard, including tying for 3rd at War Games Con when I first tried it at a tournament. Going to go back to summoning as part of my lists in the future...just got sick of carrying so many boxes around.

Everyone who says summoning is not reliable is doing it wrong :-P

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

My summoning lists have always dominated really hard, including tying for 3rd at War Games Con when I first tried it at a tournament. Going to go back to summoning as part of my lists in the future...just got sick of carrying so many boxes around.

 

Everyone who says summoning is not reliable is doing it wrong :-P

 

Good to hear, though power-level is not my primary concern. Obviously I do want to win from time to time, though.

 

Do you have any comment on my proposed list?

[Lagrath]

 

My summoning lists have always dominated really hard, including tying for 3rd at War Games Con when I first tried it at a tournament. Going to go back to summoning as part of my lists in the future...just got sick of carrying so many boxes around.

 

Everyone who says summoning is not reliable is doing it wrong :-P

 

 

Good to hear, though power-level is not my primary concern. Obviously I do want to win from time to time, though.

 

Do you have any comment on my proposed list?

 

 

-no close combat ability

-plasma guns are pricey, especially on normal chaos marines, which are bad

-the allied detachment is pointless

-take 2 horror squads not 1 so that you can cast the same power(s) out of both and spread out the heralds

-list has no mobility other than summoning slaanesh stuff or screamers

-flakk missile are not cost effective. Get a Fire Raptor or get two Hell Blades

-having only one thing that's flying means it has a good chance of getting shot out of the sky, especially if it's a MC

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

 

 

My summoning lists have always dominated really hard, including tying for 3rd at War Games Con when I first tried it at a tournament. Going to go back to summoning as part of my lists in the future...just got sick of carrying so many boxes around.

 

Everyone who says summoning is not reliable is doing it wrong :-P

 

 

Good to hear, though power-level is not my primary concern. Obviously I do want to win from time to time, though.

 

Do you have any comment on my proposed list?

 

 

-no close combat ability

-plasma guns are pricey, especially on normal chaos marines, which are bad

-the allied detachment is pointless

-take 2 horror squads not 1 so that you can cast the same power(s) out of both and spread out the heralds

-list has no mobility other than summoning slaanesh stuff or screamers

-flakk missile are not cost effective. Get a Fire Raptor or get two Hell Blades

-having only one thing that's flying means it has a good chance of getting shot out of the sky, especially if it's a MC

 

 

Thanks. If I may explain myself somewhat;

 

1. No CC ability is deliberate. Summoned Daemonettes and KoS will be my choppy.

2. They are and they are, but I need AP2 from somewhere.

3. The Allied Detachment (I presume you mean the CSM one) exists solely to allow me to take another Sorceror alongside BaleSorc and the DP. Also, initially I was going to take two ADLs with Quad-Guns and the CSM detachment was going to be my Secondary CAD. 

4. Point noted.

5. No, it doesn't. I don't know what to cut to take transports, though.

6. I don't know what a Fire Raptor is and in any event probably can't afford the points for it or the Hell Blades. Flakk Missiles were only taken because I had forty points spare and wanted a little extra AA 'pop'. Also, Hell Blades are FW, right? I was under the impression that FW stuff was not commonly accepted. 

7. I was leary of having only one thing in the air but in the end took Wings on the DP again because I thought the list needed some extra AA. Perhaps I could drop the DP and put those points towards a Flyer or two.

 

What kind of list did you run?

 

Again, thanks for your comments.

[Lagrath]

1. No CC ability is deliberate. Summoned Daemonettes and KoS will be my choppy.

 

You will get rolled in CC long before you get enough summons out, and that's assuming all your summons even succeed. This army will fold like paper to anything with any meaningful amount of fast assaulting units (in some cases, even against slow assaulting units).

 

2. They are and they are, but I need AP2 from somewhere.

 

Maulerfiends are better AP2. Or other close-combat units.

 

3. The Allied Detachment (I presume you mean the CSM one) exists solely to allow me to take another Sorceror alongside BaleSorc and the DP. Also, initially I was going to take two ADLs with Quad-Guns and the CSM detachment was going to be my Secondary CAD. 

 

Why even take another sorc? They aren't that good, and the chaos marines are bad.

 

6. I don't know what a Fire Raptor is and in any event probably can't afford the points for it or the Hell Blades. Flakk Missiles were only taken because I had forty points spare and wanted a little extra AA 'pop'. Also, Hell Blades are FW, right? I was under the impression that FW stuff was not commonly accepted. 

 

FW stuff is 100% 40k legal in 7th edition. There is no difference between stuff from the IA books and stuff from normal codexes. Anyone who tells you differently is wrong, and is trying to play with outdated house rules that don't apply to 7th rules or most major tournaments. Both units I mentioned are in IA13.

 

7. I was leary of having only one thing in the air but in the end took Wings on the DP again because I thought the list needed some extra AA. Perhaps I could drop the DP and put those points towards a Flyer or two.

 

Even with gifts, the DP has barely any AA. Slaanesh DP is actually one of the few good things in the army, though. My point was more to take 2 or 3 of that unit if you are going to take even 1.

[Lagrath]

Here is roughly, at first glance, how I would re-do your list:

 

Slaanesh Daemon Prince, Wings, ML3 (Telepathy), 2x greater gift

Slaanesh Daemon Prince, Wings, ML3 (Telepathy), 2x greater gift

Marine Squad - 10, 2 meltaguns, rhino with dozer blades

Marine Squad - 5, rhino with dozer blades, death of kasyer lutien

Havocs - x5, 4 Autocannons

Havocs - x5, 4 Missile Launchers

Fire Raptor

ADL w/ Quad-Gun

 

CD Combined Arms

 

Herald - ML3 (Malefic), exalted gift (for portalglyph)

Herald - ML3 (Malefic)

Horrors - x12, ML2 (Malefic)

Horrors - x12, ML2 (Malefic)

Nurgle/Slaanesh Soulgrinder, bombardment (or a Plague Hulk)

Nurgle/Slaanesh Soulgrinder, bombardment (or a Plague Hulk)

Nurgle/Slaanesh Soulgrinder, bombardment (or a Plague Hulk)

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Here is roughly, at first glance, how I would re-do your list:

 

Slaanesh Daemon Prince, Wings, ML3 (Telepathy), 2x greater gift

Slaanesh Daemon Prince, Wings, ML3 (Telepathy), 2x greater gift

Marine Squad - 10, 2 meltaguns, rhino with dozer blades

Marine Squad - 5, rhino with dozer blades, death of kasyer lutien

Havocs - x5, 4 Autocannons

Havocs - x5, 4 Missile Launchers

Fire Raptor

ADL w/ Quad-Gun

 

CD Combined Arms

 

Herald - ML3 (Malefic), exalted gift (for portalglyph)

Herald - ML3 (Malefic)

Horrors - x12, ML2 (Malefic)

Horrors - x12, ML2 (Malefic)

Nurgle/Slaanesh Soulgrinder, bombardment (or a Plague Hulk)

Nurgle/Slaanesh Soulgrinder, bombardment (or a Plague Hulk)

Nurgle/Slaanesh Soulgrinder, bombardment (or a Plague Hulk)

 

The problem I'm immediately having with this is that even without the Rhinos, Fire Raptor and upgrades a la Kasyer Lutien (whatever that is) is that it comes to nearly 2,100 pts...